As a Frigate rider, my interest is about VMG and range, not just angles. The Frigate has been an excellent all round wing but as my skills have developed and my foil choices get smaller (and I have a faster mast), the speed limits of the Frigate become apparent. And if I want to be consistently “well powered” then I’ll definitely be uncomfortable in the gusts. Hence my interest in the discussions of LTX, Hybrid and Orbit.
Right now leaning towards a 4.3 Hybrid, 3.5 and 2.7 Orbit, and a big single skin for backup and desperation sessions. Thanks for all the detailed field reports.

BWalnut said..

AnyBoard said..Your friends hybrid angles are well less than I thought. Those angles are easily achieved on well powered PR or frigate. V1 single skins of course. Typical of what I have seen others post for the hybrid.
Your angles are also current assisted and are very ordinary.
it tells me that any talk of the ltx and hybrid being amazing upwind is in relation the the pt skin which is known to lag the PR and frigate in up wind angle and speed. The hybrid is pretty good but only comparable to the best v1 singles.

it seems the piaia is well ahead of the hybrid.
This is why pictures matter to me and talk on the reviews counts for little

I think it's a mistake to evaluate a parawing based on the angles only. Ignoring the rest of the experience, the conditions of the day, the foil selection, etc. leaves far too much out of the equation.



Paia tracks, nothing special if all we are doing is looking at angles. But if you saw me riding one handed unhooked toeside in 40 knots with a 3.1m you'd see there is something special going on.

djdojo said..
As a Frigate rider, my interest is about VMG and range, not just angles. The Frigate has been an excellent all round wing but as my skills have developed and my foil choices get smaller (and I have a faster mast), the speed limits of the Frigate become apparent. And if I want to be consistently “well powered” then I’ll definitely be uncomfortable in the gusts. Hence my interest in the discussions of LTX, Hybrid and Orbit.
Right now leaning towards a 4.3 Hybrid, 3.5 and 2.7 Orbit, and a big single skin for backup and desperation sessions. Thanks for all the detailed field reports.

This is a good take 👍

When I look back at the angles on my v1 pocket rockets, yes, they are better. But I'm not switching back to my old foils and v1 rockets because the entire experience on the water, enhancing my ability to progress with smaller boards, smaller foils, all do to the range of the newer sails, is a complete joy.

I can't fault you for leaning on the images. We are all trying to avoid getting burned on purchases. However, I'd encourage everyone to let go of hyperfocusing on any single trait. Parawinging and foiling in general is a complete package that includes the board, foil, mast, tail, and local conditions. There's a lot of ways to have an amazing time available to us and we gotta stay curious about new opportunities.

The PR v1 was very early in the evolution of the PW phenomena and somehow set the standard for upwind that still seems to be hard to beat. Now that is crazy and particularly considering they provided light bar pressure and a reasonable amount of comfort up to say 25knots for me. That tells me to hang on to my money because these companies are in too much of a hurry without getting the number one requirement better and someone will nail it very shortly.

Even the PRv2 has to be pushed really hard to get the same upwind angles and VMG as the V1 but I would say it lost some comfort, depower and ease of use and nice bar pressure. What we did get is it is more collapsible yet not more packable. Even with those crazy stiff lines tangles still happen if you just let it blow around instead of bundling it with care.

Now here we are to discuss the latest hybrid and double skin offering and as their reason for existence is to provide VMG with comfort I would expect them to go upwind better than an early V1 wing by a long way across a wider range. We are willing to loose some packability and possibly handling dynamics but jeez you got to give me VMG with comfort.

I really appreciate the effort of you guys to post your experiences along with the pretty pictures of your angles. I also appreciate the willingness to debate the lesser mentioned traits of some PW's. We are here to cut through the rubbish reviews that say things like it goes upwind good. It pack down good while ignoring the lines cut your hands.
My pocket rocket V2's were reviewed as perfect by Gav and that is certainly not anywhere near what they are. They are pretty good for me with kite foiling experience but i expected a lot better and will teach my family on the V1's thanks.

I am hoping PPC have nailed the VMG with comfort requirement but I can't be laying down the cash anymore without being sure.

AnyBoard said..

BWalnut said..

AnyBoard said..Your friends hybrid angles are well less than I thought. Those angles are easily achieved on well powered PR or frigate. V1 single skins of course. Typical of what I have seen others post for the hybrid.
Your angles are also current assisted and are very ordinary.
it tells me that any talk of the ltx and hybrid being amazing upwind is in relation the the pt skin which is known to lag the PR and frigate in up wind angle and speed. The hybrid is pretty good but only comparable to the best v1 singles.

it seems the piaia is well ahead of the hybrid.
This is why pictures matter to me and talk on the reviews counts for little

I think it's a mistake to evaluate a parawing based on the angles only. Ignoring the rest of the experience, the conditions of the day, the foil selection, etc. leaves far too much out of the equation.



Paia tracks, nothing special if all we are doing is looking at angles. But if you saw me riding one handed unhooked toeside in 40 knots with a 3.1m you'd see there is something special going on.

djdojo said..
As a Frigate rider, my interest is about VMG and range, not just angles. The Frigate has been an excellent all round wing but as my skills have developed and my foil choices get smaller (and I have a faster mast), the speed limits of the Frigate become apparent. And if I want to be consistently “well powered” then I’ll definitely be uncomfortable in the gusts. Hence my interest in the discussions of LTX, Hybrid and Orbit.
Right now leaning towards a 4.3 Hybrid, 3.5 and 2.7 Orbit, and a big single skin for backup and desperation sessions. Thanks for all the detailed field reports.

This is a good take 👍

When I look back at the angles on my v1 pocket rockets, yes, they are better. But I'm not switching back to my old foils and v1 rockets because the entire experience on the water, enhancing my ability to progress with smaller boards, smaller foils, all do to the range of the newer sails, is a complete joy.

I can't fault you for leaning on the images. We are all trying to avoid getting burned on purchases. However, I'd encourage everyone to let go of hyperfocusing on any single trait. Parawinging and foiling in general is a complete package that includes the board, foil, mast, tail, and local conditions. There's a lot of ways to have an amazing time available to us and we gotta stay curious about new opportunities.

The PR v1 was very early in the evolution of the PW phenomena and somehow set the standard for upwind that still seems to be hard to beat. Now that is crazy and particularly considering they provided light bar pressure and a reasonable amount of comfort up to say 25knots for me. That tells me to hang on to my money because these companies are in too much of a hurry without getting the number one requirement better and someone will nail it very shortly.

Even the PRv2 has to be pushed really hard to get the same upwind angles and VMG as the V1 but I would say it lost some comfort, depower and ease of use and nice bar pressure. What we did get is it is more collapsible yet not more packable. Even with those crazy stiff lines tangles still happen if you just let it blow around instead of bundling it with care.

Now here we are to discuss the latest hybrid and double skin offering and as their reason for existence is to provide VMG with comfort I would expect them to go upwind better than an early V1 wing by a long way across a wider range. We are willing to loose some packability and possibly handling dynamics but jeez you got to give me VMG with comfort.

I really appreciate the effort of you guys to post your experiences along with the pretty pictures of your angles. I also appreciate the willingness to debate the lesser mentioned traits of some PW's. We are here to cut through the rubbish reviews that say things like it goes upwind good. It pack down good while ignoring the lines cut your hands.
My pocket rocket V2's were reviewed as perfect by Gav and that is certainly not anywhere near what they are. They are pretty good for me with kite foiling experience but i expected a lot better and will teach my family on the V1's thanks.

I am hoping PPC have nailed the VMG with comfort requirement but I can't be laying down the cash anymore without being sure.

We've discussed the importance of VMG over pointing angles on here so many times...
However, I've spent quite a bit of time on the PR V1 3.6, and for me that was the biggest usable size in the range. The bigger sizes, just like it seems to be happening with the V2, become almost impossible to pack.
These days I only own hybrids and, although they're more technical to fly, I think they're far better in terms of VMG and comfort. Maybe it's just the way I ride, but once you get used to the harness-assisted sheeting in and out, in my personal opinion, they're better than any single skin I've tried.
The LTX, which is really the topic of this thread, gives up a touch of VMG performance compared to the Hybrid (not comfort, though), but gains so much in packability—especially in the bigger sizes.

AnyBoard said..
their reason for existence is to provide VMG with comfort

Not sure that's accurate. The LTX, the theme of this thread, is about comfort, range, playfulness. It wasn't targeting VMG dominance.

I looked into it and the final 10 sessions I had on my Pocket Rocket v1 3m vs the first 10 sessions I've had on my LTX 3.1m, the VMG difference is about .2 to .3 My most recent LTX session almost matched my best ever Pocket Rocket session and was better than many of my rocket sessions. With the LTX I am using a smaller foil with a super flexy tail. Let's assume that I don't get any better at all at using the LTX and I have completely maxed out the VMG on them (which I don't think is true). I'd still pick them over the rockets because the range, comfort, retract, stowing, stability, lack of tangles, literally everything else, is so much more enjoyable.

Best of all, the LTX provides me with a different way to ride. It's like a wing. I could never do that with the rockets. I spend way less time doing super long upwinds and avoiding the sail now. I am finding I like both, but often times I'm preferring sessioning a small zone and getting more enjoyment out of it than the long dw/uw missions that I felt were necessary before.