The lift generated by the stab is downwards so it's actually opposite to what you say, if mounted on bottom it would be held by bolts!
which foil and fuse are you using? I've never had a problem breaching the stab and I'm not sure the 15mm difference being bottom mounted would make any difference to it breaching ?

happysam said..
Coming from armstrong gear I am used to the tail being under the fuse and not above as it is on duotone foils. To me its a bit strange because if its under, screws dont have to take the load but fuse would... anyways, I've been breaching the tail numerous times which causes wipe outs and it annoys me. Has anyone tried to mod this and put the tail wing under - or have ideas on how to make this work?

patronus said..
North are same as Duotone and designer said this was deliberate to keep stab clear of turbulence from front foil.
Whatever, I also get wipeouts/ventilation/breaching of stab with Duotone, I guess it's ventilation of mast in chop.

are north and duotone compatible wing/fuse? I'd love to try the wiz but not enough to shell out for a whole system

leepasty said..
The lift generated by the stab is downwards so it's actually opposite to what you say, if mounted on bottom it would be held by bolts!
which foil and fuse are you using? I've never had a problem breaching the stab and I'm not sure the 15mm difference being bottom mounted would make any difference to it breaching ?

happysam said..
Coming from armstrong gear I am used to the tail being under the fuse and not above as it is on duotone foils. To me its a bit strange because if its under, screws dont have to take the load but fuse would... anyways, I've been breaching the tail numerous times which causes wipe outs and it annoys me. Has anyone tried to mod this and put the tail wing under - or have ideas on how to make this work?

Thats true, but I was mostly thinking of The load it gets from jumping as it should be More stressful on The bolts than it would be if it was below. I ride 850 carve with 180P tail. Probably it has to much lift for me and a 650 would erase this issue (or smaller stab, Will try with H145 tail)
it just never happened like that before because now the tail is a bit higher than the foil itself and I usually ride the foil very close to the surface.

MProject04 said..
I once fitted with some 'mods' an F-one stab to a NP fuse. And it was a complete f*** up exercise. Worst ride ever. I tossed the stab in the bin afterwards together with all my BS theories. Massive ego bruise

Hahaha - I hear you

I don't know anyone who has torn bolts thru the stab or broken them. so if you want to move it just for that reason it seems pointless

happysam said..

Mark _australia said..
I don't know anyone who has torn bolts thru the stab or broken them. so if you want to move it just for that reason it seems pointless

The reason for the swap is to lower the tail so that its level or lower than the front foil:)

But why? which foil and fuse are you using? if on the c stab swap to the p and if already on the p go smaller. Biggest stab I use is p180 even on the glide 1305 with 60 fuse

leepasty said..

happysam said..

Mark _australia said..
I don't know anyone who has torn bolts thru the stab or broken them. so if you want to move it just for that reason it seems pointless

The reason for the swap is to lower the tail so that its level or lower than the front foil:)

But why? which foil and fuse are you using? if on the c stab swap to the p and if already on the p go smaller. Biggest stab I use is p180 even on the glide 1305 with 60 fuse

Could be something else but some kind of ventilation is happening

happysam said..

leepasty said..

happysam said..

Mark _australia said..
I don't know anyone who has torn bolts thru the stab or broken them. so if you want to move it just for that reason it seems pointless

The reason for the swap is to lower the tail so that its level or lower than the front foil:)

But why? which foil and fuse are you using? if on the c stab swap to the p and if already on the p go smaller. Biggest stab I use is p180 even on the glide 1305 with 60 fuse

Because I breach the tail when doing aggressive turns:)
but I feel that the 850 carve lifts alot so will pair with smaller tail and also got a glide2 coming very soon so will be interesting to see how it works for me:))

just curious if anyone has tried somrthing like that :)

I prefer carve dlab 850 on short fuse with the p180 tail and -0.3 shim on 90 dlab mast, I'm 90kg.
you can push this foil as hard as you like in turns it doesn't ventilate. the minus shim just makes it bit faster. the p165 works well too but makes it looser and I find can do better turns with the 180 especially when it's bigger than overhead

As someone who is still relatively new I think there's something to be said for the stab breaching first. It gives you warning you are too high and you can recover before breaching the front foil and wiping out. North mentions that as a benefit on top of not having the stab in the path of the front foil, and breaching just the stab is not a big deal at all, doesn't really cause me any wipeouts. You hear the sucking water as much as you feel anything.

In theory if the stab loses lift it should result in you pitching down and recovering right?

I feel like if you are frequently falling from breaching specifically the stab something else about the setup isn't working well.

Velocicraptor said..
Remember that a 0.5 degree shim can make a pretty noticeable difference in how a foil behaves. A modification like you are proposing needs to be VERY precise to maintain the ride characteristics of the foil. I had an aftermarket fuselage from a company that makes a lot of them. It rode like trash and I had to do some very aggressive (almost 5 degrees) shimming just to make the foil functional. I kind of learned my lesson with mixing and matching gear after that experience and lacking the correct tools and techniques, I definitely wouldn't attempt anything requiring this precision myself.

hear you :) I've tried shimming it, I think I just by nature hold the foil very high as it is the sweet spot and not used to the high tail when going into sharp turns on waves. I have a small concern about the shim too but I may sound too whiny haha

joeballow said..
As someone who is still relatively new I think there's something to be said for the stab breaching first. It gives you warning you are too high and you can recover before breaching the front foil and wiping out. North mentions that as a benefit on top of not having the stab in the path of the front foil, and breaching just the stab is not a big deal at all, doesn't really cause me any wipeouts. You hear the sucking water as much as you feel anything.

In theory if the stab loses lift it should result in you pitching down and recovering right?

I feel like if you are frequently falling from breaching specifically the stab something else about the setup isn't working well.

Just to dont give the wrong impression - I rarely wipe and I have a lot of fun on the foils - BUT - I've noticed some differences when swapping foil systems and want to debunk where it comes from - Which leads to the guess that the tail is breaching because it often happens when I do sharp turns on waves and it really feels like it is the tail - but I might be wrong I have full duotone kit and use the recommended stuff - just wish i ordered the 650 instead =D

AK Durable Supplies have a reversible fuse which allows you to choose top mount or bottom-mount. AK and KD tails (which are compatible) are designed so they can fit top or bottom ie. reversible.

I've heard the theory of front vs tail waterflow influence - but I tried both ways and it felt no different to me. The early breach tail is nonsense as it's always the frontwing that will leave the water first unless the fuse is set at a really weird angle.

The main benefit with the reversible fuse is that it can accommodate other other brands tails whether they are top or bottom mounted (provided screw holes line up to 30mm or 40mm). And if you have a reversible tail, you can choose to top-mount it to protect it from scratching against reefs, or bottom-mount for easier access to swap out. I ride pre-dominantly in sandy bottom areas so always go for bottom-mount as it's just easier.....

PeterP said..
AK Durable Supplies have a reversible fuse which allows you to choose top mount or bottom-mount. AK and KD tails (which are compatible) are designed so they can fit top or bottom ie. reversible.

I've heard the theory of front vs tail waterflow influence - but I tried both ways and it felt no different to me. The early breach tail is nonsense as it's always the frontwing that will leave the water first unless the fuse is set at a really weird angle.

The main benefit with the reversible fuse is that it can accommodate other other brands tails whether they are top or bottom mounted (provided screw holes line up to 30mm or 40mm). And if you have a reversible tail, you can choose to top-mount it to protect it from scratching against reefs, or bottom-mount for easier access to swap out. I ride pre-dominantly in sandy bottom areas so always go for bottom-mount as it's just easier.....

I read that if the mast ventilates air makes its way to stab which loses power, board nose dives and front foil loses lift. I suspect that's my problem exasperated by an offset stance which twists board and mast. Adding a negative shim seems to help. I don't turn sharp enough to breach front wing.

leepasty said..

happysam said..

leepasty said..

happysam said..

Mark _australia said..
I don't know anyone who has torn bolts thru the stab or broken them. so if you want to move it just for that reason it seems pointless

The reason for the swap is to lower the tail so that its level or lower than the front foil:)

But why? which foil and fuse are you using? if on the c stab swap to the p and if already on the p go smaller. Biggest stab I use is p180 even on the glide 1305 with 60 fuse

Because I breach the tail when doing aggressive turns:)
but I feel that the 850 carve lifts alot so will pair with smaller tail and also got a glide2 coming very soon so will be interesting to see how it works for me:))

just curious if anyone has tried somrthing like that :)

I prefer carve dlab 850 on short fuse with the p180 tail and -0.3 shim on 90 dlab mast, I'm 90kg.
you can push this foil as hard as you like in turns it doesn't ventilate. the minus shim just makes it bit faster. the p165 works well too but makes it looser and I find can do better turns with the 180 especially when it's bigger than overhead

The shorter the fuse, the less lift the tail gives for the same size. A shorter fuse may help or a smaller tail and maybe some shimming as Lee does.

Or maybe a slightly longer mast is needed.

Lee, on mast length, are you upgrading to the new dlab slim 2.0 mast? What size will you change the 90 dlab mast for?
I'm on the 90 dlab mast on the UK south coast. I like it as it clears the chop and doesn't breach. The new 94 mast is for racing and big waves and seems too long. It also has a wider chord, so not as good at turning on the wave. The 84 dlab mast sounds great for winging surfing, but will it be too short for the choppy UK south coast?

patronus said..

joller said..

leepasty said..

happysam said..

leepasty said..

happysam said..

Mark _australia said..
I don't know anyone who has torn bolts thru the stab or broken them. so if you want to move it just for that reason it seems pointless

The reason for the swap is to lower the tail so that its level or lower than the front foil:)

But why? which foil and fuse are you using? if on the c stab swap to the p and if already on the p go smaller. Biggest stab I use is p180 even on the glide 1305 with 60 fuse

Because I breach the tail when doing aggressive turns:)
but I feel that the 850 carve lifts alot so will pair with smaller tail and also got a glide2 coming very soon so will be interesting to see how it works for me:))

just curious if anyone has tried somrthing like that :)

I prefer carve dlab 850 on short fuse with the p180 tail and -0.3 shim on 90 dlab mast, I'm 90kg.
you can push this foil as hard as you like in turns it doesn't ventilate. the minus shim just makes it bit faster. the p165 works well too but makes it looser and I find can do better turns with the 180 especially when it's bigger than overhead

Lee, are you upgrading to the new dlab slim 2.0 mast? What size will you change the 90 dlab mast for?
I'm on the 90 dlab mast on the UK south coast. I like it as it clears the chop and doesn't breach. The new 94 mast is for racing and big waves and seems too long. It also has a wider chord, so not as good at turning on the wave. The 84 dlab mast sounds great for winging surfing, but will it be too short for the choppy UK south coast?

Like you 84 sounds too short, but whilst I was smacking chop on DLab 90 a friend with similar skills on AFS 82 was doing fine, maybe stiffer mast and smoother Silk foil meant he could ride higher in control. In chop sailor had proto 84 and doing fine (far better winger than me). Mast looked nice and felt way stiffer on beach.
So now I'm thinking 84 will fine, still an expensive gamble.

Yeah, it is an expensive gamble. The Duotone mast is measured from top of board base plate to bottom of fuse connector, which is part way into the fuse. So from top of base plate connector to top of fuse is probably less 1-2 cm.
Great that you saw a winger riding the 84 proto in chop, this is starting to give me a bit more confidence.