I have been learning wing, and I humbly suggest that the "wing pump" flap might be being taught incorrectly. I think this intuitively comes with time to advanced riders that there is a timing element, but not particularly helpful to beginners? Maybe it is taught this way to simplify things? I don't know but would be interested to hear some thoughts on this. Intention with this thread is to help progress things, and is based on observation.

Here is my analysis, take this with a pinch of salt. This is based on what I've seen, and then experienced riding a downwind board with an Axis 1300 and managing to start in ~10-12kn.

The wing pump is described as a circular "pullup" motion, but places no emphasis on moving the wing through the air. While actually the desired movement is much more subtle than just ripping the wing round in circles:

1. It's a circle movement, but viewed from above at 45deg angle, not the side
2. It's a well timed accelerating woosh forward and up, not a manic circle
3. It feels like you are pushing the wing forward in a scooping motion, with your back hand doing the work
4. The hands don't move in sync, one goes just before the other

Here are some examples from the wild (non instructional) and all seem to do something like what I've tried to describe:

www.instagram.com/p/CkqqtE-oLjf/

Clear at around 0:30 (instructional video but describes more the foil pump)



Instrucional:
These 4 videos all describe this very circular "pullup" technique, what is interesting is that the Duotone video describes the pullup technique, but then the rider when viewed from the top does exactly the whoosh forward that I'm describing with the forward push at 2:00
Gif works here: makeagif.com/i/AsTR0R

1:40


2:50





Disclaimer - I didn't exhaustively search for instructional videos, just the top 4 youtube results which all seemed to describe this very simple movement, which doesn't really seem to work for me, and then watching light wind videos, I see people do something entirely different, and similar to what I felt intuitively. I also had a lesson but I don't think it covered pumping the wing that much.

The main thing (that worked for me in learning) is to 'feel the pressure in the wing' and then pull yourself forward. The circular is to reinstate the wing (without contra action) for a next pull .

I learned that pumping slower but with more feel is more effective .. instead of manic pumping.

Also wait for a gust that will last. Don't waste energy otherwise.

And think about core strength, and transferring that forward pull into the feet into the board.

And finally to be abe to feel the pressure in the wing and maximize pull, the arms need to be straightened at one point in the motion.

A little clip to back up my 2 cents www.instagram.com/reel/Clb3eYOv9OD/?igshid=YmMyMTA2M2Y=

saltwaterwine said..
Did you have a look at Alan Cadiz's videos.?
Theres more than one way.
Intuitively Ive realised this way.
Its worth thinking about it as maintaining flow over the back of the sail as you set up for the next power stroke. Apparent wind changes throughout the cycle so you try to scallop the sail through the outbound movement and avoid pushing back against the wind. That keeps power in the sail throughout the cycle. Constant adjustment.

I could only find this, which is more about scooching the board than anything else?


Yes agree it's about keeping the sail flowing and accelerating, the faster you move the smaller and tighter the pumps need to be.

Taavi said..
It's the timing thing. All you need to do is to pull with your back hand a little bit longer than with your front hand, and as a result the wing shoots forward and the "circle" happens magically by itself. Extending your arms a lot and bringing the wing far forward before doing another pump allows the next pump to be more effective, and there is also way less chance that the tip of the wing would touch the water.

Here is an example of pumping with a 6.0 m2 wing in light winds. I am 180 cm, and there is no issues with the wing touching the water. Also, notice how I gradually move my front hand further back while pumping. This adds power into the wing, and at the same time allows doing deeper pumps without the wing touching the water. That's just one of the reasons why the wings with long handles are so cool.

Thanks for explaining it, holding the back hand a bit longer makes sense. The video of yours is perfect in demonstrating this!

So why do the online tutorials not explain this? Seems like obviously something people do, and can describe. Flapping the wing like crazy clearly doesn't allow for smooth airflow. Is this a recent development due to better wings and foils? Do medium aspect foils not need this because you can just ollie up?

Taavi said..
It's the timing thing. All you need to do is to pull with your back hand a little bit longer than with your front hand, and as a result the wing shoots forward and the "circle" happens magically by itself. Extending your arms a lot and bringing the wing far forward before doing another pump allows the next pump to be more effective, and there is also way less chance that the tip of the wing would touch the water.

Here is an example of pumping with a 6.0 m2 wing in light winds. I am 180 cm, and there is no issues with the wing touching the water. Also, notice how I gradually move my front hand further back while pumping. This adds power into the wing, and at the same time allows doing deeper pumps without the wing touching the water. That's just one of the reasons why the wings with long handles are so cool.

Thanks for explaining it, holding the back hand a bit longer makes sense. The video of yours is perfect in demonstrating this!

So why do the online tutorials not explain this? Seems like obviously something people do, and can describe. Flapping the wing like crazy clearly doesn't allow for smooth airflow. Is this a recent development due to better wings and foils? Do medium aspect foils not need this because you can just ollie up?

@cornwallis Thanks. With some foils that are big enough there is perhaps just no need to be as nuanced with the technique and any kind of flapping gets you going anyway?

BTW, with the smaller area HA foils and smaller wings I have a similar but slightly modified way of pumping. I hold the wing much more vertically to begin with, keeping both my hands elevated, and pulling towards my eye level (or even a bit higher) and not downwards. Pumping like that allows each pump to take me forward, eventually reaching the higher board speed that is needed for the smaller HA foils to start working.

At my local frontal winds only and super gusty, I've never had much luck with any technique under 15kn using a short board 5.4 x 26' x 104L, 6.5m sls in light wind at 100+kg and 6'3. My biggest foil is 1385cm.

I then bought a sup foil board 6'6 x 30 x 140L and the extra water line length + added volume made a night and day difference and can now foil in 12kns. The board generates speed so easily and can unweight and pump foil and to be honest it's fun and I can tack/gybe on it. I use to have a phobia about long boards but now use it for 50% of sessions, if it has good chimes and foil tracks forward, they feel 1 foot shorter and agile. If you are not going to sup foil you could go narrow 26' would be good, could double as a DW board too.

I agree with what @MProject04 said, especially waiting for the right gust, so many times I have almost pumped up and the wind dies, so then it doesn't matter what technique is used, no wind no foil.

cornwallis said..

@cornwallis Thanks. With some foils that are big enough there is perhaps just no need to be as nuanced with the technique and any kind of flapping gets you going anyway?

BTW, with the smaller area HA foils and smaller wings I have a similar but slightly modified way of pumping. I hold the wing much more vertically to begin with, keeping both my hands elevated, and pulling towards my eye level (or even a bit higher) and not downwards. Pumping like that allows each pump to take me forward, eventually reaching the higher board speed that is needed for the smaller HA foils to start working.
So why do the online tutorials not explain this? Seems like obviously something people do, and can describe. Flapping the wing like crazy clearly doesn't allow for smooth airflow. Is this a recent development due to better wings and foils? Do medium aspect foils not need this because you can just ollie up?

I guess probably the case.

Interesting, would be cool to see a clip as I can imagine this but miss maybe the details. Is the idea to generate more speed? Or just because you have less wing to touch the water.

It seems that what is obvious is that a HA foil requires more board speed, what is less obvious is that the technique for wing pumping also changes, requiring a refined wing movement when getting going in light wind.

@cornwallis, I did not find a good clip right away. But here is a pic where I am not yet foiling. When holding the wing more vertically (and not at some 45? degree angle) pretty much all of it's pull takes you forward instead of upwards.



So basically, already during the pumping stage you can mimic that super effective wing position that you also use while foiling. At the end of this short clip there is an example of how even a small wing easily reaches below the board deck. During the pumping, while the board is still in the water, you'd just have to elevate both of your hands and try to pump while holding the wing like that. Using a 840 cm2 front wing and a 3.5 m2 wing in this clip, not too windy day at all.

eppo said..

Taavi said..
It's the timing thing. All you need to do is to pull with your back hand a little bit longer than with your front hand, and as a result the wing shoots forward and the "circle" happens magically by itself. Extending your arms a lot and bringing the wing far forward before doing another pump allows the next pump to be more effective, and there is also way less chance that the tip of the wing would touch the water.

Here is an example of pumping with a 6.0 m2 wing in light winds. I am 180 cm, and there is no issues with the wing touching the water. Also, notice how I gradually move my front hand further back while pumping. This adds power into the wing, and at the same time allows doing deeper pumps without the wing touching the water. That's just one of the reasons why the wings with long handles are so cool.

From your vid am I right is saying that your front arm doesn't seem to bend much at all - especially relative to the back hand. I slowed the speed to half to watch?

@eppo, you are quite right. Very little at first, and a bit more later. I made a slow motion clip as well.

Taavi said..

eppo said..

Taavi said..
It's the timing thing. All you need to do is to pull with your back hand a little bit longer than with your front hand, and as a result the wing shoots forward and the "circle" happens magically by itself. Extending your arms a lot and bringing the wing far forward before doing another pump allows the next pump to be more effective, and there is also way less chance that the tip of the wing would touch the water.

Here is an example of pumping with a 6.0 m2 wing in light winds. I am 180 cm, and there is no issues with the wing touching the water. Also, notice how I gradually move my front hand further back while pumping. This adds power into the wing, and at the same time allows doing deeper pumps without the wing touching the water. That's just one of the reasons why the wings with long handles are so cool.

From your vid am I right is saying that your front arm doesn't seem to bend much at all - especially relative to the back hand. I slowed the speed to half to watch?

@eppo, you are quite right. Very little at first, and a bit more later. I made a slow motion clip as well.

Nice thanks bud.

Taavi said..

eppo said..

Taavi said..
It's the timing thing. All you need to do is to pull with your back hand a little bit longer than with your front hand, and as a result the wing shoots forward and the "circle" happens magically by itself. Extending your arms a lot and bringing the wing far forward before doing another pump allows the next pump to be more effective, and there is also way less chance that the tip of the wing would touch the water.

Here is an example of pumping with a 6.0 m2 wing in light winds. I am 180 cm, and there is no issues with the wing touching the water. Also, notice how I gradually move my front hand further back while pumping. This adds power into the wing, and at the same time allows doing deeper pumps without the wing touching the water. That's just one of the reasons why the wings with long handles are so cool.

From your vid am I right is saying that your front arm doesn't seem to bend much at all - especially relative to the back hand. I slowed the speed to half to watch?

@eppo, you are quite right. Very little at first, and a bit more later. I made a slow motion clip as well.

Very interesting , thanks for posting the video. Looking at the tutorial videos from the original post, it is clear that pumping with both arms bending roughly the same amount also works - but I assume not as well. But the tutorial videos are aimed at beginners, who usually are on big foils, where the bigger payback comes from learning some coordination between pumping the wing and the foil.
When progressing to smaller foils, boards, and wings, pumping plays a much bigger role. Watching experienced foilers, I noticed that some get going with with a very athletic effort - fast whole body pumps that make me tired just watching them . But others seems to be able to get going on similar gear with what looks like much less effort, probably due to a more refined technique.

Looking at the slow motion clip, it seems that the forward movement of the wing starts while the back hand is still pulling in. That effectively increases the apparent wind over the wing, thereby increasing the lift. I have heard about that before, but could never really make sense of it before seeing your slow motion clip.

Some of the tutorial videos point out that you have to move the wing forward at the end, when you're done pumping. That's something I have noticed on the water, too, even though my pumping technique is not good. With the front arm barely bending, as in the clip, this forward move happens earlier, while still pumping, which makes sense to me.

Here's one of my favorite vids.
At 2.30 Kane discusses the use of the mast as a "keel." If you watch an advanced windsurfer pump onto plane, he's doing do by unweighting the board and leveraging the board in the water at the same time the sail powers up. Same with kitesurfing. Winging has a giant fin to lever off of, so the angle of the board as it sits in the water can also be used in conjuction with the timing of the wings movements. Notice in this vid, Kane is using a tiny everything. He gets on plane, but is breathing hard! As discussed in this thread, more volume (and to a certain extent waterline, but not too much!) combined with a larger foil and wing makes it easier, as does a more locked arms stance. But it's not to say one thing takes presidence over the other, as bent arms use less core muscle and more energy, but allow more explosive pop which might be the call when needed.

Made one clip with a smaller wing as well. Everything else is pretty much the same, the circular arms movement is still very much there, just that with a smaller wing it's possible to start the proper pumping right away and it's not that big a deal if the wing touches the water, and most importantly - you can hold the wing even more vertically which helps to get going faster. 62 litres and 3.6 m2, 880 cm2 front wing. Hope such footage is useful.