Next Project?

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Kemosabi
Kemosabi
69 posts
69 posts
2 May 2009 4:06am
This IMAC Breezer caught my eye some time ago when I saw it for the first time in the "wind surfer mast" post:
www.seabreeze.com.au/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=48873

Looks like a sweet machine, except for the steering, which could be easily reconfigured to more robust design (minus ropes). Does anyone own one of these?





hills
hills
SA
1622 posts
SA, 1622 posts
2 May 2009 9:41am
I don't know who owns one, but it looks quite similar to Promogirl's (Mrs Landyacht's) promo. If you like that Paul might send you the plans.

landyacht
landyacht
WA
5921 posts
WA, 5921 posts
3 May 2009 8:45pm
As a suggestion, I would recommend that you work on learning to build relly comfy seats. youcould teach yourself the basics of glassing on wood , then move on to building a plug ,mold and then a seat from a mold .
Fibreglass shops, books and websites all offer help, as would we, the first time you pull a simple seat from a mold you realize what a great and usefull skill youve learnt, that your kids have learnt , and the possibiities are endless.
I hadnt done any molding , and thought it really hard , then one day watched a kiwi fella pulling a nosecone for a gokart from a mold , whilst drinking a beer , all under his house, . when I asked how it was done he explained the basics,and introduced me to coremat. cheers for that kiwi307
Having built a good seat you then start fitting it to new yacht designs
your hooked now , so why stop
landyacht
landyacht
WA
5921 posts
WA, 5921 posts
3 May 2009 8:46pm
As a suggestion, I would recommend that you work on learning to build relly comfy seats. youcould teach yourself the basics of glassing on wood , then move on to building a plug ,mold and then a seat from a mold .
Fibreglass shops, books and websites all offer help, as would we, the first time you pull a simple seat from a mold you realize what a great and usefull skill youve learnt, that your kids have learnt , and the possibiities are endless.
I hadnt done any molding , and thought it really hard , then one day watched a kiwi fella pulling a nosecone for a gokart from a mold , whilst drinking a beer , all under his house, . when I asked how it was done he explained the basics,and introduced me to coremat. cheers for that kiwi307
Having built a good seat you then start fitting it to new yacht designs
your hooked now , so why stop
Kemosabi
Kemosabi
69 posts
69 posts
5 May 2009 4:03am
Bit of a bummer to build a nice class 5 and have to settle for a plank seat eh?!

I've molded composite parts for airplanes before, but nothing as big as a landyacht seat. I figured that's one of the next projects though. In some ways it seems easier to make such a big part because I won't have to deal with pressing fabric into tight corners.

Would be fun to build a big plastic vacuum forming machine. Build a seat for about $40 in 5 minutes once the mold is made.
kiwi307
kiwi307
488 posts
488 posts
5 May 2009 8:37am
Kemosabi said...

Bit of a bummer to build a nice class 5 and have to settle for a plank seat eh?!

I've molded composite parts for airplanes before, but nothing as big as a landyacht seat. I figured that's one of the next projects though. In some ways it seems easier to make such a big part because I won't have to deal with pressing fabric into tight corners.

Would be fun to build a big plastic vacuum forming machine. Build a seat for about $40 in 5 minutes once the mold is made.


What form of thermo plastic do you think would take the abuse though?
landyacht
landyacht
WA
5921 posts
WA, 5921 posts
5 May 2009 10:32pm
If it was just the seat,the same construction method and styles as most of the plastic "kayaks" that infest our waters would do the job. a class 3 body would be another issue.
problem is that those plastics give quite a heavy product. A poly welder showed me some thin sheets he was using to build a dinghy with. he reckoned they were the lightest and thinnest stuff available . a 4'x8' sheet was 22kg . the plans he was using called for 6mm marine ply that weighed in at 8 kg per sheet .
when he finished the dinghy , I couldnt even drag it because of all the extras he'd added to stop the sheets of plastic warping.
the latest 'explorer' seat That we layed up in polyester resin , chopped strand and some coremat,for TEST PILOT 1, weighed in at 4kg, and he's no lightweight
Kemosabi
Kemosabi
69 posts
69 posts
5 May 2009 11:50pm
Certain compositions of plastic would handle the abuse, but you're right Landyacht; It would be much heavier and warping would be an issue. The deck on my lawnmower is plastic and I'm sure it was injection molded instead of vacuum formed. That way they can mold in ribs to add strength in the weaker spots.

Did you vacuum bag your composite seat?
I've always wanted to try a vacuum infusion project. Maybe this is my chance.
kiwi307
kiwi307
488 posts
488 posts
6 May 2009 4:03am
This almost deserves a separate thread!
The reason I asked is that vacuum forming fascinates me, but I did not know of a thermo/vacuum plastic that would work. Kayaks etc are not made this way.
After many thousands of resin and glass objects of all sorts, I find it hard to get the enthusiasm to pick up a bucket of resin again, even for myself. As well having had so many of my products "flop moulded" ie you do all the development then some one comes and takes a mould cos they think they can do it cheaper than the product you are selling. (Hint look further up the page).
Vacuum moulding of resin still gets a bit sticky, but I am nearly ready to do some resin infusion just for the sake of it. The mould needs to be even more technical though, but you stay clean!
landyacht
landyacht
WA
5921 posts
WA, 5921 posts
6 May 2009 9:03pm
Kemosabi said...

Certain compositions of plastic would handle the abuse, but you're right Landyacht; It would be much heavier and warping would be an issue. The deck on my lawnmower is plastic and I'm sure it was injection molded instead of vacuum formed. That way they can mold in ribs to add strength in the weaker spots.

Did you vacuum bag your composite seat?
I've always wanted to try a vacuum infusion project. Maybe this is my chance.

the seats I make are just a simple lay up .
wax on , wax off, PVA mold release, gel coat( Im a bit rough at this bit. David Rose in Adelaide does a much nicer job), then on with the chopped strand, beefing the layers where required, in areas where boltholes or feet ? big bottms will be going I add a layer of coremat which really beefs the strength. I try to design a "smart"structure rather than relying on whopping thick heavy lay ups.
the explorer seat is 1.8m long and the laying up of the mat takes 2hrs(4 beers) in one hit. with an assistant who knows what to do it takes 2hrs 15min!.
I avoid tight corners as much as possible.
I dont know that vacumning the seat would have any advantage.
I can understand 307's frustration with the mold. the promo?/explorer seats took about 100+ hours of sanding and polishing by a team of 3 just to get that first seat, yet weve ceated a shape that would be soooo easy to copy

kiwi307
kiwi307
488 posts
488 posts
7 May 2009 4:55am
Paul, time to move on from the 1970's! There are better options than blotting paper, woops coremat.
I gave up on that where strength was a factor not long after the Kart nose moulds. Interesting that these are nearly always rotomould now. BUT the reason is that they do them from polyethylene is that they use them as "push the other guy" pods and 'glass ould not hack this for too long.
Coremat is great for adding thickness without too much weight, but contribute very little to actaul strength. I'm not sure if you remember but I used to add Qcell to all laminating resin to puff it out a bit. Intesting this gave a better result. But as usual, the way you know, and are happy with is always the right way!
Vacuuming is great IF THE MOULD WAS MADE FOR IT. It's very easy, saves a lot of the rolling, and gets very good structures. I can't really see why you would need to for a seat. You have achieved good weight, you have it done in good time (I like the comment about assistant!) so why change!
landyacht
landyacht
WA
5921 posts
WA, 5921 posts
7 May 2009 8:40pm
QCELLS!!!! way back in the early 90's my supplier rang me and asked me to return any that I had as the manufacturer was recalling it on health grounds. I used the last of mine in my old bus as filler.
I have a est strip of chopped strand / core mat that I keep in the shed to remind me of the extra support i gives for little weight gain, love the stuff, Ive made battens from it, when battens got scarce.
polyester/fibreglass WOW Its a really cheap easy to use system that requires no fancy equipment , or conditions, you can teach yourself, and at the end of the job you can pack it away in a cupboard. The price has barely changed in 20 years!. The suppliers I use can be rung, even in the middle of the job, for advice.
love it, it love , love it
everybody should learn to do it at school, just like learning to use a sewing machine.
I wish Id learnt that one years ago
kiwi307
kiwi307
488 posts
488 posts
8 May 2009 4:54am
yes, now it's a blend and called micro spheres, I am not sure of the composition.
When Richard Honey, who is now the director of High Modulus Fabrics, and laminate engineer for all sorts of stuff, plnaes, windmill blades, Americas Cup boats etc was at uni doing his degree we made all the test panels for his research. Since seeing what happened I haven't used coremat again! But tthis was "extreme testing", dropped steel ball, spikes etc. It is great for increased panel stiffness though for sure. Star cracks are almost a given.
I am surprised it worked for your battens, every time I tried we got core sheer when the battens flexed, maybe the battens I tried were more flexi than yours.
landyacht
landyacht
WA
5921 posts
WA, 5921 posts
8 May 2009 8:29pm
One seat got really tested recently, had a newbie panic, turn around and come back in the yacht. the yacht had a direct impact with a cast iron flag pole directly in front of where her feet were.the seat cracked and flexed, and the yacht slid past to bash the rear axle. without that re-enforcing, I do wonder what the damage could have been.
the damage took almost 10minutes to rebuild
Kemosabi
Kemosabi
69 posts
69 posts
8 May 2009 11:02pm
I've used micro spheres. I think it's also called "fumed silica", or maybe that's slightly different composition. Sometimes I used powdered carbon as filler in carbon fabric layups.
Epoxy is my favorite laminating resin, but polyester is cheap and more available.

The layups I've done for airplanes are carbon/Kevlar/glass. Very light, very tough, very expensive when doing a large part and also overkill for a seat unless the seat is handling part of the frame stress.

I like the idea of doing a composite axle.
Gizmo
Gizmo
SA
2865 posts
SA, 2865 posts
9 May 2009 9:07am
Kemosabi said...


I like the idea of doing a composite axle.


Many years ago the "Sabre" (large) land yachts used composite axles, they were 50x50mm layed up in some aluminium "U" channel moulding using the glass rope that goes into a chopper gun.... VERY strong.

Hiko
Hiko
1229 posts
1229 posts
9 May 2009 1:59pm
Some years ago my friend and I owned a microlight aircraft that had an undercarriage that would have been great for a landyacht, wheels and all
It too was composite aproximately 100mm across the top and two webs at 45 degrees of about 50mm in the centre and tapering toward the ends to about
half those figures Sort of upside down channel shape in cross section
landyacht
landyacht
WA
5921 posts
WA, 5921 posts
9 May 2009 7:18pm
Gizmo said...

Kemosabi said...


I like the idea of doing a composite axle.


Many years ago the "Sabre" (large) land yachts used composite axles, they were 50x50mm layed up in some aluminium "U" channel moulding using the glass rope that goes into a chopper gun.... VERY strong.



I remember thinking at the time how stiff they would be.
If you were doing a composite axle, you would be doing it so it would flex and be a form of suspension, as well as returning stored energy to the yacht.
best example woud have to be the LUDIC,those little rear axles are probably the main reason for the yachts amazing speed and cross country ability. sounds like a fantastic next project that you can report to us about

kiwi307
kiwi307
488 posts
488 posts
9 May 2009 9:14pm
Isn't the Blokart a composite axle? Certainly was the last time I looked! Pre-preg epoxy carbon glass!
Maybe not quite how most of us thought of it though. Many of the euro class 3's are using them (or were). The Charc (Georges Ameele) had one, the Glider from Seagull has them.
In a way Colin Palmers axles are, as they use(d) a cedar core for shape (not much strength in cedar) and then various composites over the outside and for the main web.
I never used them for 2 main reasons
1 Wood is cheap I used the normal Euro favorite of Ash.
2 Wood is easy to make more springy, the power planer works a treat!(That is very hard to do with glass or carbon, easy to stiffen, but hard to soften.)
landyacht
landyacht
WA
5921 posts
WA, 5921 posts
10 May 2009 8:28pm
your right about the wood , Ive one in Tassie oak, and one in hoop pine, for my bigger yacht. Im pretty sure the blokart axles just glass, not carbon , they charge alot more for the carbon mast bits, probably just black pigment in the resin. The kilwell factory ( where the blokart bits come from)used to make windsurfer masts which look exactly like carbon stuff , but you can smell the difference when you cut them. the broken blokart axles Ive seen were just glass, the certainly bend enough to get the suspension effect
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