Forums > General Discussion   Shooting the breeze...

Lets build better rockets !

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Created by Macroscien A week ago, 14 Feb 2020
Emeboy
NSW, 296 posts
15 Feb 2020 3:01AM
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Macroscien said..

Emeboy said..
Now now kids.... Play nice

I think Macro likes to throw out the random ideas a little bit like science fiction or the movies making up a seemingly preposterous idea... Think 'Get Smart' way back in the day.... A shoe phone?? Preposterous!! Nowdays (nowadays?), we could put a phone in a shoe but prefer to carry them around in our pockets (actually Star Trek already had cellphones didn't they... Beam me up Scotty). A weird idea might just jog someone's thoughts to develop something better... or new.... maybe.... Trouble is, there are a million random preposterous thoughts to every feasible development.

Now for a spiral laid tunnel....
1. The size of the segment pieces required to create a single spiral helix would be way too big and heavy to handle. The Westgate Tunnel in Melbourne is 15m in diameter and each segment ring of 2.4m length requires 10 individual pieces. These pieces are approx. 13-15 ton each.
2. If you are considering a spiral laid tunnel in the similar fashion to a spiral wound pipe, the helix length required for even a small diameter (spiral) tunnel would be quite long, resulting in a significant portion of the freshly dug tunnel to remain unsupported while the helix was being constructed..... if you are going to make the helix a tight pitch and have multiple helixis (helixies, helixi???) which would allow smaller segment pieces..... then why not just make rings?
3. Even with concentric rings, the moulds for these segments are very precisely machined. If you now want to create a spiral helix and break that into manageable segments, the mould complexity would be significantly greater and therefore much more difficult and expensive to manufacture.

For a spiral welded fuel tank (presumably under significant pressure)
1. Hoop Stress..... (you might be better off wondering why they do not extrude the cylinders in one piece..... No welds seams at all)

Sorry Macro, these ones might just end up being filed under R....

This announcement was bought to you by the letters P for Preposterous and H for Helix.....





Look at the cost overruns for our tunnels. Billions wasted. My idea already is that proposed tunnels are too big for that ultimate function. If you could downsize tunel to the pipe size of 1 meter diameter one day, that you could transfer people across globe with speeds of 24,000 km/h and minimize cost below those for typical rail road. Look at the diameter of Boring company proposed tunnels ( downsize) . You already see this move in right direction.Now on the picture above you could count how many concrete pieces/ element you may need to round the spiral circle. Very manageable size for fully automatic underground assembly. As I said , time will tell if I am right. Lets wait 5 years and see how tunnels and rockets are build. But idea like that firstly controversial, quickly convert into obvious. So another , next invective will be accusation that I come with such obvious solution, that every kid know about. Once explained the most ingenuous becomes obviously easy.




1m diameter at 24,000km/hr?? I think they have already thought of this one too.....




Chris6791
WA, 3189 posts
15 Feb 2020 5:55AM
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random YouTube video on spiral pipe making shows many reasons why it won't work for tunnels. Least of all how you're going to feed new material to the end of the pipe, regardless of diameter and all of the quality control for the manufacturing of the concrete tunnel sections fed to a TBM are done in a factory setting, not underground.

if you really thing spiral welding for Elon's rockets is the way to go, tweet him, let him know and report back.

saltiest1
NSW, 2134 posts
15 Feb 2020 9:30AM
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Rockets will be obsolete once the worm hole/time shifting disk is operational.

Chris6791
WA, 3189 posts
15 Feb 2020 9:11AM
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Elon is probably working on that too, or Uber.

Chris 249
NSW, 2297 posts
17 Feb 2020 8:15AM
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youngbull said..
FormulaNova, does not read like bullying but clearly comes off as trolling. Trolling hard due to the multiple post.

Macro, at a guess I would say its to keep the strength along a certain area of the stainless sheet, also the direction of the welds would play a major part in achieving this.
In my experience spiral pipe has great strength but when it fails it is very fast with no warning and becomes an un-serviceable repair.


I don't think FN has trolled anyone, either. He simply asked a technical question that Macro has not answered.

When it comes to bullying, you can argue that someone who essentially says "X is a good idea but rocket scientists have been ignoring it for 75 years" is sort of bullying rocket scientists. If this was a better way then logically thousands of rocket scientists must be morons for not coming up with it in the countless hours they have spent designing rockets. Implying that many highly-trained people are utter morons is not respecting them, to say the least.

Chris 249
NSW, 2297 posts
17 Feb 2020 8:22AM
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Oh, by the way, here's what happens when people who reckon they are experts ignore what the real experts tell them about rocket fuel tank joints;

?t=95


How would a spiral-welded tank handle the expansion and contraction involved in going from sitting idly on a launch pad in below-freezing conditions, to spewing out gases at 3600 degrees? The Challenger disaster was caused when the managers ignored the rocket scientist's attempts to warn them about exactly that problem.

Jolene
1142 posts
17 Feb 2020 5:35AM
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Welding sheets together to build tanks or cylinders may be a thing of the past in the aerospace industry. Carbon fiber filament winding is far superior in many applications. I have seen solid fuel rocket motor casings made this way that even incorporate the nozzle during the winding.

Chris 249
NSW, 2297 posts
17 Feb 2020 8:48AM
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Emeboy said..
Now now kids.... Play nice

I think Macro likes to throw out the random ideas a little bit like science fiction or the movies making up a seemingly preposterous idea... Think 'Get Smart' way back in the day.... A shoe phone?? Preposterous!! Nowdays (nowadays?), we could put a phone in a shoe but prefer to carry them around in our pockets (actually Star Trek already had cellphones didn't they... Beam me up Scotty). A weird idea might just jog someone's thoughts to develop something better... or new.... maybe.... Trouble is, there are a million random preposterous thoughts to every feasible development.






It'd be great if everyone played nice. That would require people to respect others, and implying that thousands of very smart professionals have spent decades being morons and ignoring superior designs is not respecting others. Nor is getting abusive and personal when people ask for technical information about the practicality of ideas, as FN and I do.

Get Smart's shoe phone or Dick Tracey's watch phone can be seen as classic examples where saying "this is a cool idea" was basically very easy, but very useless. As early as 1906 there were cartoonists playing with the simple and obvious ideas of mobile phones, but that got no one anywhere. There seems to be no evidence that those concepts played the slightest part in developing the cellphone. What does seem to have been vital is work like that of Atalla etc in the development of silicon integrated circuits, which in turn relied on respecting and then building on the learning of others; ie the vital paper on stabilising the surface of silicon has 47 references showing where the team learned from others instead of essentially saying "these people are morons who have been ignoring obvious and easy ideas".

It's interesting that in the sports I do, the people who win world titles and gold medals respect and learn from others and then added their own expertise on top of the existing excellence. The ones who spend their lives criticising everyone and implying that winning is easy are the ones who spend their sailing careers trailing the pack. Similarly, the Wright Brothers learned from Smeaton, Lilienthal and others and they created an aircraft where all the guys who thought they just had to flap their arms and jump off a tower failed. If learning from others was good enough for the Wright Brothers, Einstein and Newton, why is it not good enough for the rest of us?

Chris 249
NSW, 2297 posts
17 Feb 2020 9:00AM
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Jolene said..
Welding sheets together to build tanks or cylinders may be a thing of the past in the aerospace industry. Carbon fiber filament winding is far superior in many applications. I have seen solid fuel rocket motor casings made this way that even incorporate the nozzle during the winding.


That's pretty damn amazing, considering the temperatures! The fact that rocket scientists can achieve that makes it even stranger to assume that they are a pack of complete morons who have been ignoring the right way to build tanks for 75 years or so.

Macroscien
QLD, 5147 posts
Thursday , 20 Feb 2020 11:04AM
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Once we have got stainless steel fuel tank sorted , the time comes to implement my next big invention in our SB rocket.
We replace traditional rocket engines with my newest design of circular detonation engine. In short instead of slow combustion of propellent and oxidized , in my latest design combustion mixture undergo continuous circular detonation ( controlled explosion) .There is great advantage of proposed system with 5x greater speed of escaping gasses and higher efficiency of detonation over combustion by 25% for the same material used. But to see such advanced device working we need to wait another 50 years of so , I am afraid.

Mobydisc
NSW, 8805 posts
Thursday , 20 Feb 2020 12:44PM
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How high can a stainless steel building be built? Built one that goes up into space if we can.

Macroscien
QLD, 5147 posts
Thursday , 20 Feb 2020 1:02PM
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Mobydisc said..
How high can a stainless steel building be built? Built one that goes up into space if we can.



That interesting question and not trivial at all.
So far high steel structure is built like grid - Eiffel Tower.There is limit how much mass construction could sustain.
But if instead of grid we build a enclosed structure - imagine ice cream cone here- filled with lighter then air gas - helium- then our building will be " floating" not just standing. Thin steel or plastic envelope keep our gas from escaping.,All weight is compensated by displaced air - roughly 1 kg per m3.
So one day we may be able to build building maybe not to the orbit but 5 -10 km tall. Our main enemy will be wind resistance, but incorporating winglets at certain level may he alleviate that problem. The higher the wind - the higher lifting force up.The basic model we could create by attaching balloons, platforms to teether lines at certain high increments. Lets imagine 3 strong lines anchored at triangle at ground level and then round platform 10-20 meters thick every 100 meters of height. 10 leves and we have 1 km tall structure with tourists platform , observation deck or even offices.
20 levels and we are well beyond higher artificial structure ever build.

That building unfortunately maybe in constant movement reacting to all wind pressure.

Chris6791
WA, 3189 posts
Thursday , 20 Feb 2020 12:53PM
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Engineers can build as high as you want. It's usually the economics and practicality that prevent it.

kiterboy
1536 posts
Thursday , 20 Feb 2020 2:00PM
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Macroscien said..

I use to tell my friends overseas that Australia is that beautiful place where people great strangers " Good day , mate ! "


I think this is the most offensive idea I've seen you post.
No-one says 'Good Day, mate'!

It's 'G'day'!

Chris6791
WA, 3189 posts
Thursday , 20 Feb 2020 2:52PM
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futurism.com/the-byte/rocket-design-powered-by-explosions

someone beat you to it Macro.



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Forums > General Discussion   Shooting the breeze...


"Lets build better rockets !" started by Macroscien