Mobydisc said..

FormulaNova said..

Mobydisc said..

Gboots said..

Harrow said..

Gboots said..
Income tax is worse. CGT is more palatable than income tax.

Well, if you're lucky you get to pay both, or neither.

Discouraging you to earn more is a poor form of tax .
Earning usually comes with effort .
Capital Gains on the other hand is usually at the mercy of timing .
Personally I believe we should have much higher GST and nil income tax

Federal income tax is a war tax. Federal income tax was imposed to pay for war.

It is the greatest scam of Australian history, besides the theft of land from Aborigines, to keep the Federal income tax in peace time. We can blame that great conservative, Bob Menzies for this scam and the disasters that have resulted from the federal income tax.

Moby, if we didn't have it, what would pay for all the services and costs of running a country?

How were the services and this running the country, whatever that is, paid for without a federal income tax? Look it up. In any case the federal government can create as much money that it likes to pay for whatever goodies they want to dish out.

Australia in the 19th century became one of the most dynamic and prosperous lands in the world and not because of taxes. The British stopped transporting criminals here because too many people were voluntarily taking a very slow and dangerous journey here. They were not moving here because there was an income tax to pay services and to run the country.

The point I am trying to make is that you have all of these services, and they need to be paid for somehow. Maybe a few hundred years ago there were nowhere near the services that we have now, but that's progress.

"The federal government can create as much money that it likes to pay for whatever goodies they want to dish out" is not correct. They cannot just make money out of thin air without affecting lots of things. Sure, the government as a whole can do this, but it affects everything else. If an economy was trying to survive with a government just printing more money it would not last long as the AUD would fall in value and affect all imports. I am sure there are plenty of basket-case countries that can show you that this does not work despite what despotic rulers think.

actiomax said..
I would agree with that except every service we used to get has been privatised.
So when did we get tax relief because of that?

No, I think the one thing we all agree on is the government takes something that was already paid for, or free, and then sells it off to someone for a quick profit to spend before they get voted out.

I remember 'the poles and wires' being sold and we were told it would lead to cheaper electricity... right. Sure. Its not as if the business that paid for it would want to make a profit or anything...

One thing that annoys me is that the information about landowners used to be freely available by using their website, so you could lookup who owned a block using it. They stopped it, and I think they used 'privacy reasons' as the reason. Now, they sell exactly the same information through brokers. Hardly a privacy issue and more a money making exercise.

Similarly, remember when NSW used to have one-off customised number plates? You paid a fee upfront but after that it was free. Then they realised they could make money from custom plates and even the one-offs became annual charges. In WA there seems to be a huge number of custom plates so I am thinking the cost for them over here is much better than NSW wants to extort.

At least the M4 is free

Our governments have sold us all out . Since when has any government really cared about the people ?

FormulaNova said..
I remember 'the poles and wires' being sold and we were told it would lead to cheaper electricity... right. Sure. Its not as if the business that paid for it would want to make a profit or anything...

One thing that annoys me is that the information about landowners used to be freely available by using their website, so you could lookup who owned a block using it. They stopped it, and I think they used 'privacy reasons' as the reason. Now, they sell exactly the same information through brokers. Hardly a privacy issue and more a money making exercise.

Similarly, remember when NSW used to have one-off customised number plates? You paid a fee upfront but after that it was free. Then they realised they could make money from custom plates and even the one-offs became annual charges. In WA there seems to be a huge number of custom plates so I am thinking the cost for them over here is much better than NSW wants to extort.

At least the M4 is free

Stop reminding me. Not only do the state governments no longer get a big dividend each year to fund health and education, but the buyers have set up company structures that shift the profits to tax havens, so we're missing on the company tax as well. And I'm not complaining because I used be in the industry, I've made a small fortune from the change, but I still think the whole thing stinks.

Harrow said..

FormulaNova said..
I remember 'the poles and wires' being sold and we were told it would lead to cheaper electricity... right. Sure. Its not as if the business that paid for it would want to make a profit or anything...

One thing that annoys me is that the information about landowners used to be freely available by using their website, so you could lookup who owned a block using it. They stopped it, and I think they used 'privacy reasons' as the reason. Now, they sell exactly the same information through brokers. Hardly a privacy issue and more a money making exercise.

Similarly, remember when NSW used to have one-off customised number plates? You paid a fee upfront but after that it was free. Then they realised they could make money from custom plates and even the one-offs became annual charges. In WA there seems to be a huge number of custom plates so I am thinking the cost for them over here is much better than NSW wants to extort.

At least the M4 is free

Stop reminding me. Not only do the state governments no longer get a big dividend each year to fund health and education, but the buyers have set up company structures that shift the profits to tax havens, so we're missing on the company tax as well. And I'm not complaining because I used be in the industry, I've made a small fortune from the change, but I still think the whole thing stinks.

I guess it will always happen. Someone in government sees an unguarded asset, sees an opportunity, gets the marketing department involved and then sells it off.. "yes, sure, selling off the supply of freshwater to Sydney is in the best interest of the state, and despite it being one of the best and cleanest I am sure we can do better by selling it off so that you can all buy it in bottles instead of getting it from rusty taps."

I think its just the nature of the system though. Governments fund themselves this way and don't take any heat for it.

FormulaNova said..
....See what a decent government can try in order to adjust things for the betterment of society.

yeah.....righto....

Wasn't housing affordability and access the number 1 selling point of Jacinda's campaigns ? She was elected back in 2017 so has had 5 years to fix it. Or at least do something.

Didn't she promise to build 10,000 low income houses every year for 10 years ?

How many got built ? less than 250 in two years ? Just short of her promise I guess? And many are now standing empty as they built in the wrong place where there were no low income first time home buyers waiting to spend money on a house, so are now proposed to be sold to investors, speculators and anyone who will pay ?


Didn't she then sack her housing minister for the fiasco, scrap the entire 100,000 house plan signature policy and come up with a new $400m government backed mortgage and rent-to own scheme ? A 'let the private sector do the work and let the government throw some cash around solution because we are inept at actually delivering anything' solution ?

How has that worked ? ...so well that 2 years later she has now come up with a brand new scheme.

.. I say 'new' plan, but really it is just the same old Government solution of taxing anyone that is considered mildly able such that everyone is brought down to the level of the least able. The lifting everyone up policy is a bit too hard so we'll go back to the dragging everyone down policy. Throwing money around hasn't worked so we'll take other people's money instead. Mmmm reckon I've heard that before somewhere.

And so, what exactly has the 5 years and several brilliant and cunning housing affordability plans from JA delivered ?... well, she has delivered some world leading solutions - the world's worst housing affordability, world's highest rise in real estate prices and .....

....a new promise to fix this great new problem.... a promise that seems to convince some people it can a) be delivered and b) is a sign of awesomeness, not a sign of abject failure of everything done to date.


Still, rather have JA than at least 5 out of 6 of the last Aussie governments.

It won't work there either. Plenty of countries don't have any form of negative gearing. They still get the cyclic price booms and busts. Understand the root cause of the problem. Until that is changed (and it won't be - Infact we are taking the same mentality into space as well) then nothing is new under the sun. Anyhow no more from me on this matter. I've told you what to read. It seems you'd rather keep chopping away in the wrong forest. Debating ideas that have literally nothing to do with the cause of price booms and busts.

eppo said..
Debating ideas that have literally nothing to do with the cause of price booms and busts.

I'm not talking about booms and busts at all. I'm talking about a financial system that is skewed toward the wealthy on something as essential as having a place to live.

bazz61 said..

FormulaNova said..

Harrow said..

FormulaNova said..
Here for your reading interest:

www.abc.net.au/news/2021-04-02/housing-boom-nz-and-australia-lending-tax-crackdown/100046056

www.savings.com.au/home-loans/nz-reins-in-runaway-housing-market-will-australia-follow

www.stuff.co.nz/business/124629199/anger-over-government-moves-against-property-investors

PS: I think JA is awesome, but I won't be moving to NZ just yet.

Wow, not even being able to claim mortgage payments as a deduction against rental income. I'd support it.

However, if it is successful, just wait for all the excuses on why it wouldn't work here. There'll be a lot arm waving and rhetoric on why we shouldn't follow suit.

It is harsh though! Changing the capital gains tax from 5 years to 10. That's a big change.

From what I read, they already partition it so that the interest from the mortgage can only be claimed against the rental income, and not against other sources of income. That in itself is interesting as here I think people are okay with running a loss as they feel they are getting a better deal by getting some of their PAYG income back.

I haven't looked at NZ's setup before this, but I thought part of the problem there was the number of foreigners buying in, or is that only a minor part? Probably like here, there would be people that bought at the right time and keep on adding to their number of houses, and pushing up the price for everyone else.

I guess a true investor should hang onto a property for a decent amount of time, to stop short term speculation and people carrying a loss in the short term to make up for it on the capital gain.

I don't know if anyone would say it wouldn't work here, its just as was said before, there are so many people using housing as an investment tool that their vote makes a large enough number to have impact.

www.stuff.co.nz/business/84126729/complaint-after-west-auckland-home-sold-three-times-in-one-day

Makes you wonder. With a flat taxing system the same after 1 day as it is at almost 5 years, or now almost 10 years, it doesn't really discourage people from flipping a house as soon as possible. Maybe the new rules have gotten it wrong? Maybe they should have a progressive tax system where it gets cheaper the longer you hold it to encourage investors and not speculators?

Here I am sure people look at the calendar to see when they get the CGT discount and then feel more likely to sell it then. Maybe if it was a percentage that changed it really would make people see it differently? Right now in NZ if you wanted to sell in 7 years it seems you would be taxed the same as if you sold tomorrow.

www.nzherald.co.nz/business/auckland-house-sold-three-times-in-one-day/OSVYZNICVXG22KLQ2AWQ3P2SYE/#:~:text=A%20tiny%20two%2Dbedroom%20West,has%20lodged%20a%20formal%20complaint.

Not sure how this proposed upfront land tax will effect things . Some interesting points raised in this article
www.smh.com.au/national/nsw/warnings-nsw-stamp-duty-reforms-could-distort-the-property-market-20210418-p57k81.html#comments

evlPanda said..

FormulaNova said..
From what I read, they already partition it so that the interest from the mortgage can only be claimed against the rental income, and not against other sources of income. That in itself is interesting as here I think people are okay with running a loss as they feel they are getting a better deal by getting some of their PAYG income back.

That's how everywhere, but Australia, does it. Only here can you claim a loss from what is essentially a business against your personal income.

I haven't looked at NZ's setup before this, but I thought part of the problem there was the number of foreigners buying in, or is that only a minor part?

****ing huge problem. Same in Canada.

And it's not just foreigners, it's immigrants (yes, I'm an immigrant)

I've nothing personal against immigrants, but I have a macro financial issue with how it is all run, and why it is all run.

Australia's GDP is only kept up, out of recession, by importing new people into the scheme. er, like a Ponzi scheme.

We have this seemingly never ending "skills shortage", and yet I don't see any businesses offering people higher wages to fill these positions. At all. None. Quite the opposite.

If we actually have a skills shortage, then why are wages flat?

Do we have a skill shortage because of our education system? Can't be, because our universities (and more and more schools) are being kept afloat by ****ing tons of overseas students who beg borrow and steal to study here! (I work at a uni and some classes are (or were) *completely* Chinese)

So, let's face it, there is no skills shortage!

So that is a nice little door to have tons of people move here, mostly to Sydney and Melbourne. There is a constant influx of new people and new money into our economy, and that is why it grows.

Yes, there are some other factors too, but take away immigration and you will see a recession in a few years. We probably avoided half a dozen the last 30 years because of it, or more.

Oh yeah; obviously this influx of people and money affect house prices (amongst other things).

Hey, go back to where you came from. Can't have Qld'ers living in NSW!

No, there's no skills shortage that I can see. I think you are in IT as well, and from what I have seen its only recruitment agents that are doing well from selling cheaper staff from overseas.

Our own 'Computer society' seems to be a front for making excuses to import more people, and somehow avoiding training people up to the standard required.

I wouldn't mind so much if the immigrants were pushed into industries where we actually have a shortage or proper NEW jobs are created instead of just giving the same level of jobs to different people.

I am a bit surprised at the prices of houses in Sydney at the moment. No short-term immigration pressure, but people are still trying to get in because they think it will get worse later. It may well, but I can't see the value in it.

evlPanda said..

If we actually have a skills shortage, then why are wages flat?

Do we have a skill shortage because of our education system? Can't be, because our universities (and more and more schools) are being kept afloat by ****ing tons of overseas students who beg borrow and steal to study here! (I work at a uni and some classes are (or were) *completely* Chinese)

So, let's face it, there is no skills shortage!

Check out the IT industry. It's incredible hard for companies to recruit(and yes, they pay is going up). Same goes for almost all industries in WA.

There is no such thing as involuntarily unemployment in Australia. But there are a lot of people that doesn't want to work in boring or hard jobs. At the moment they flying in people from Vanuatu to pick fruit.

FormulaNova said..

Number said..


Check out the IT industry. It's incredible hard for companies to recruit(and yes, they pay is going up). Same goes for almost all industries in WA.

Do you have first-hand experience of this? My experience has been that idiot recruiters no longer understand their industry and just seek out certifications. Sometimes they wonder why the people they provide are not up to scratch. Maybe this is why they think there are no good candidates out there?

This affects supply of candidates all the way back to university enrolments.

Yes, at my previous company we had a role going. Fully remote, +$100k per year and no crazy requirements. Got a total of 3 applications, all of them turned out to be completely useless. Had to hire overseas to fill the position.

All recruiters do is that they scrape LinkedIn for candidates and pass them on without any vetting. They don't have the competence to read a resume.

I would say uni's have played out their role. In Australia it's more about selling visas than providing education.

Number said..

evlPanda said..

If we actually have a skills shortage, then why are wages flat?

Do we have a skill shortage because of our education system? Can't be, because our universities (and more and more schools) are being kept afloat by ****ing tons of overseas students who beg borrow and steal to study here! (I work at a uni and some classes are (or were) *completely* Chinese)

So, let's face it, there is no skills shortage!

Check out the IT industry. It's incredible hard for companies to recruit(and yes, they pay is going up). Same goes for almost all industries in WA.

There is no such thing as involuntarily unemployment in Australia. But there are a lot of people that doesn't want to work in boring or hard jobs. At the moment they flying in people from Vanuatu to pick fruit.

A QLD farmer has come up with a novel way of getting Aussies to pick fruit, pay more ! Supply & demand if you can't afford to pick your crop and have to rely on cheap imported labour, are you running a farm or an extortion racket ?