Forums > General Discussion   Shooting the breeze...

The Great Battery Conjob Exposed

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Created by Crusoe 3 months ago, 2 Feb 2019
Adriano
10826 posts
27 Feb 2019 7:26AM
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Forget the battery con job, the real con job we're about to be sold is that mitigation technologies to fix the symptoms of climate change will allow us to keep burning fossil fuels and persisting with high CO2 footprint industries.

Macroscien
QLD, 4633 posts
27 Feb 2019 2:26PM
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With increasing size of solar and wind generation we could also think about adjusting our power consumption.
Luckily aircondtioners alrady are in demand when sun output peaks. No need adjustment here.
In China some biggest solar plants are utilized only at 15 % capacity.Since we don't have always capability to storage this access energy , we could try to convert this cheap electric power into something useful. For example production of aluminium require enormous amount of electric energy.
So any access of available electric energy could be directed into manufacturing, processing something usefull like aluminium.Then this pure aluminium could be used as currency . This conversion brings more benefit then 5-10c per kw hour. To produce 1 kg of aluminium require 13kWh and 1 kg of aluminum is worth $2

Harrow
NSW, 2596 posts
28 Feb 2019 10:01AM
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Macroscien said..
With increasing size of solar and wind generation we could also think about adjusting our power consumption.
Luckily aircondtioners alrady are in demand when sun output peaks. No need adjustment here.
In China some biggest solar plants are utilized only at 15 % capacity.Since we don't have always capability to storage this access energy , we could try to convert this cheap electric power into something useful. For example production of aluminium require enormous amount of electric energy.
So any access of available electric energy could be directed into manufacturing, processing something usefull like aluminium.Then this pure aluminium could be used as currency . This conversion brings more benefit then 5-10c per kw hour. To produce 1 kg of aluminium require 13kWh and 1 kg of aluminum is worth $2

Aluminium smelters need to run 24/7, they can't be switched off overnight, otherwise the pot lines solidify and everyone goes home and doesn't come back. They'd only make things worse by substantially increasing the amount of power needed when the sun isn't shining.

Paddles B'mere
QLD, 2334 posts
28 Feb 2019 9:28AM
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^^^ Yep, that's why these type of plants generally have their own power stations in addition to a very secure and reliable grid supply.

Hardcarve1
QLD, 434 posts
11 Mar 2019 6:40PM
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Paddles B'mere said..
^^^ Yep, that's why these type of plants generally have their own power stations in addition to a very secure and reliable grid supply.


For energy intensive manufacturing like aluminium what will need to be established to power these. It sounds like solar, wind and batteries cannot be relied upon so is hydro an alternative or is coal and nuclear the best supply. Is this something that suits the building of large water energy stores in our north which would be close to the mining.

Mr Milk
NSW, 1501 posts
11 Mar 2019 7:59PM
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Hardcarve1 said..

Paddles B'mere said..
^^^ Yep, that's why these type of plants generally have their own power stations in addition to a very secure and reliable grid supply.



For energy intensive manufacturing like aluminium what will need to be established to power these. It sounds like solar, wind and batteries cannot be relied upon so is hydro an alternative or is coal and nuclear the best supply. Is this something that suits the building of large water energy stores in our north which would be close to the mining.


Canadian Al refining runs off hydro. It is not feasible to set up hydro in our tropics because the rain is too seasonal and we mainly have flatlands.

Paddles B'mere
QLD, 2334 posts
11 Mar 2019 8:24PM
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Yep, in Australia right now, coal/gas fired power is the only reliable bulk electricity supply that can drive these loads. But hopefully sometime soon there will be an alternative.

Macroscien
QLD, 4633 posts
11 Mar 2019 8:54PM
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Interesting that in proposed modeling the price for battery was $2000 per 1 kWh.Tesla manufacture battery for their automobiles at $150 per kWh and you could buy retail in China at $385 per kWh.
Using false or corrupted input data authors could prove any argument at wish.

If we run Hydro on bottled water could be expensive too.
Australia also committed all available gas to be sold overseas so our plants may run on imported LPG/NLG.

kato
VIC, 2441 posts
11 Mar 2019 10:25PM
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Macroscien said..




Interesting that in proposed modeling the price for battery was $2000 per 1 kWh.Tesla manufacture battery for their automobiles at $150 per kWh and you could buy retail in China at $385 per kWh.
Using false or corrupted input data authors could prove any argument at wish.

If we run Hydro on bottled water could be expensive too.
Australia also committed all available gas to be sold overseas so our plants may run on imported LPG/NLG.


Tesla battery costs are actually getting close to $100 per Kw

mazdon
909 posts
11 Mar 2019 8:46PM
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Mr Milk said..

Hardcarve1 said..


Paddles B'mere said..
^^^ Yep, that's why these type of plants generally have their own power stations in addition to a very secure and reliable grid supply.




For energy intensive manufacturing like aluminium what will need to be established to power these. It sounds like solar, wind and batteries cannot be relied upon so is hydro an alternative or is coal and nuclear the best supply. Is this something that suits the building of large water energy stores in our north which would be close to the mining.



Canadian Al refining runs off hydro. It is not feasible to set up hydro in our tropics because the rain is too seasonal and we mainly have flatlands.


Some huge tidal ranges and flows though

Harrow
NSW, 2596 posts
12 Mar 2019 7:44AM
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kato said..
Tesla battery costs are actually getting close to $100 per Kw

If I can buy a 10kWh battery for my home for $1000, I'll get one tomorrow. Link?

Mr Milk
NSW, 1501 posts
12 Mar 2019 9:29AM
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mazdon said..

Mr Milk said..


Hardcarve1 said..



Paddles B'mere said..
^^^ Yep, that's why these type of plants generally have their own power stations in addition to a very secure and reliable grid supply.





For energy intensive manufacturing like aluminium what will need to be established to power these. It sounds like solar, wind and batteries cannot be relied upon so is hydro an alternative or is coal and nuclear the best supply. Is this something that suits the building of large water energy stores in our north which would be close to the mining.




Canadian Al refining runs off hydro. It is not feasible to set up hydro in our tropics because the rain is too seasonal and we mainly have flatlands.



Some huge tidal ranges and flows though


Last time I checked, the bauxite was near Weipa and the potential for tidal energy generation was in the Kimberley. So one or the other or both need transporting to a refinery/smelter.

kato
VIC, 2441 posts
12 Mar 2019 10:35AM
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Harrow said..

kato said..
Tesla battery costs are actually getting close to $100 per Kw


If I can buy a 10kWh battery for my home for $1000, I'll get one tomorrow. Link?


Not there yet , but you can line up behind me

Paddles B'mere
QLD, 2334 posts
12 Mar 2019 9:59AM
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MM, the real deal happens in Gladstone where it gets refined into alumina at QAL and then turned into aluminium at BSL. And that's why they built a big @rse power station specifically to power these enterprises with the whole deal being underpinned by supply contracts/allocations from the big consumers in town. I'm not sure about BSL, but certainly QAL used to have their own power station on site to keep the process going if their grid supply was interrupted.

But you've hit on one of the big issues, and it is that we locate industry as near as possible to an energy source (in an area we sacrifice to basically become an industrial wasteland) and if we relocate the energy source then the industry is less efficient/secure and may need to be relocated to the new energy source.

For our current big industry demands, the current technology alternative energy probably just isn't viable here yet, but for the rest of us it makes a lot of sense. However Harrow and Bara have opened my eyes to the impact on the price of coal fired generation caused by less demand for coal fired generation.

Macroscien
QLD, 4633 posts
12 Mar 2019 10:33AM
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Harrow said..

kato said..
Tesla battery costs are actually getting close to $100 per Kw


If I can buy a 10kWh battery for my home for $1000, I'll get one tomorrow. Link?


Yep buy you need to buy whole sale.
Buy Gigafactory.


Macroscien
QLD, 4633 posts
12 Mar 2019 10:41AM
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Paddles B'mere said..
MM, the real deal happens in Gladstone where it gets refined into alumina at QAL and then turned into aluminium at BSL. And that's why they built a big @rse power station specifically to power these enterprises with the whole deal being underpinned by supply contracts/allocations from the big consumers in town. I'm not sure about BSL, but certainly QAL used to have their own power station on site to keep the process going if their grid supply was interrupted.

But you've hit on one of the big issues, and it is that we locate industry as near as possible to an energy source (in an area we sacrifice to basically become an industrial wasteland) and if we relocate the energy source then the industry is less efficient/secure and may need to be relocated to the new energy source.

For our current big industry demands, the current technology alternative energy probably just isn't viable here yet, but for the rest of us it makes a lot of sense. However Harrow and Bara have opened my eyes to the impact on the price of coal fired generation caused by less demand for coal fired generation.


What we are doing right now is digging coal and iron ore, only to be send to China for melting.Then we import back massive amount of steel back to Australia. The smarter way could be add a bit value to material you export.




Paddles B'mere
QLD, 2334 posts
12 Mar 2019 3:22PM
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Well we used to have steel mills, but we mustn't have been able to compete or we'd still have them. It was probably another "protected" industry that was subsidised into not being competitive just like the car industry. I think there's a bloke having a serious crack at restarting the steel mill in SA.

juicyfruit
86 posts
12 Mar 2019 1:29PM
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Isn't there a Euro mob having a crack at building home power batteries in the Holden Elizabeth plant? Or did I recall that story incorrectly?

Harrow
NSW, 2596 posts
12 Mar 2019 5:02PM
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juicyfruit said..
Isn't there a Euro mob having a crack at building home power batteries in the Holden Elizabeth plant? Or did I recall that story incorrectly?

Yep, it's part of a South Australian government subsidy program to give a $6,000 rebate to 40,000 homes that choose to install a storage battery in their home.

AUS1111
WA, 3325 posts
12 Mar 2019 2:55PM
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What if the technological jumps necessary to render renewable baseload generation economic never eventuate? Then we find out we've wasted twenty years and countless trillions of dollars when the nuclear solution was available form the time the problem became apparent.

At what point will the mainstream green lobby admit that renewables will probably never be able to replace fossil fuels for baseload generation? It better be soon or we could all be f*cked.

Paddles B'mere
QLD, 2334 posts
12 Mar 2019 8:17PM
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Bwahaha, that's the "countless trillions of dollars question"

I wonder if anyone has worked out an actual date, where an alternative/clean bulk power supply must be found before that date; in order to make the whole of life cost of kicking off a nuclear power plant right now become unviable.

kato
VIC, 2441 posts
12 Mar 2019 9:39PM
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AUS1111 said..
What if the technological jumps necessary to render renewable baseload generation economic never eventuate? Then we find out we've wasted twenty years and countless trillions of dollars when the nuclear solution was available form the time the problem became apparent.

At what point will the mainstream green lobby admit that renewables will probably never be able to replace fossil fuels for baseload generation? It better be soon or we could all be f*cked.


Power too expensive, takes too long before you can make power/ money, not a great investment return and NO ONE has worked out how to decommission one when it wears out in 40 yrs. They last no longer than a Coal fired power station. Next

juicyfruit
86 posts
13 Mar 2019 5:05AM
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AUS1111 said..What if the technological jumps necessary to render renewable baseload generation economic never eventuate?

Well, hydro electric power has been economic since around the 1950's.

Have faith AUS, technology will find a way. The earth will thank us.

Harrow
NSW, 2596 posts
13 Mar 2019 11:52AM
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There's always the pump storage option. It's just a matter of whether batteries, hydrogen, or some other alternative displace it.

juicyfruit
86 posts
13 Mar 2019 1:14PM
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Yes, but why would those things displace hydro? It's about the energy mix being right isn't it?

They all work at different times, sometimes all at the same time! Happy days.

Solar and wind can be used to pump water upstream.

Hyrdo can be used when the sun's not shining and the wind's not blowing.

Hydrogen can be made using solar PV and wind and hydro...etc

Hydrogen turbines do the lot and emit water vapour!

All works with the grid.

Economy is about scale, integration and delivery to market. Perhaps hydrogen will be the battery of the future, without all the nasty chemicals that go into solid state batteries.

Harrow
NSW, 2596 posts
13 Mar 2019 7:40PM
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I agree, pumped and hydrogen are the only things that are truly totally sustainable. Unless they can 100% recycle used batteries, they can't be the permanent solution for millennia.

AUS1111
WA, 3325 posts
13 Mar 2019 8:11PM
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juicyfruit said..


Have faith AUS, technology will find a way. The earth will thank us.


I hope you're right. If you're not, what is plan B and when do we revert to it?

As at right now, the ONLY emissions free alternative to fossil fuels for base load generation is nuclear. Hallelujah if we invent something better, but at this point that is still a massive IF.



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Forums > General Discussion   Shooting the breeze...


"The Great Battery Conjob Exposed" started by Crusoe