Forums > Kitesurfing Foiling

Strutless kites

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Created by warwickl 5 months ago, 30 Mar 2017
Thecopterdr
QLD, 98 posts
21 Aug 2017 6:45AM
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warwickl said..
I have 3 strut wave kites (7 m to 11m) at an average of 3.5 kg, recently purchased a 9 and 12m Cloud kites second hand - average 2 kg. Sub 10 kn down to about 5kn the Cloud kites continue to behave while the strutted kites require a lot of attention and frequently fall and impossible to relaunch.
The Cloud kites have far less swing weight so much kinder to those with golfers elbow (me and now no issue).
Cloud power control and responsiveness in ultra light wind on longer lines is excellent.
To date only Kited with Clouds in max of 15k so stay tuned.Plus one
I expect as others have commented that above 15k wind 3 strut kites would also be adequate for foiling.

Plus one on the Clouds.
I ride a 5.5 and a 9m for free riding down to about 8 knots. I had the 13.5 but sold it after 5 sessions, I found that it didn't get used enough to justify the cost.
I went with Clouds at the start of my foiling career and reckon that if everybody rode them while learning that they would be up and riding ten times quicker...

Fly on da wall
WA, 474 posts
21 Aug 2017 6:05PM
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Send me 1 so I can verify your claim.. Pm me then. Thanks

bigtone667
NSW, 750 posts
21 Aug 2017 9:21PM
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At 100kg, I don't think the 9m would even get me up the board in 8 knots with 20m lines, but the 13.4 sure does.

posko
WA, 171 posts
12 Sep 2017 12:03AM
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I was using BRM 8 & 13 C1's. I was very happy but they don't ship to me in Swissyland or many other places for that matter.

Just recently got GONGstrutless. Based in France. A small family business been running since 1996.
They build there kites in the GASTRA factory. Good quality. Very good price. Great range.
I've had my GONG 3&6 almost a year and have been happy with the build quality and flying characteristics.
When I could get new BRM quickly I decided on GONGstrutless 9&12 too.

I use an SKshapes carbon bar or I have 2 self made carbon bars.

I don't know numbers as I rarely check wind or windspeed. If I have kite, wind & beach... I kite! I know I often kite alone, with people often astounded with how little wind I need to get out and have fun.

max_ob
QLD, 147 posts
12 Sep 2017 6:43AM
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posko said..
I was using BRM 8 & 13 C1's. I was very happy but they don't ship to me in Swissyland or many other places for that matter.

Just recently got GONGstrutless. Based in France. A small family business been running since 1996.
They build there kites in the GASTRA factory. Good quality. Very good price. Great range.
I've had my GONG 3&6 almost a year and have been happy with the build quality and flying characteristics.
When I could get new BRM quickly I decided on GONGstrutless 9&12 too.

I use an SKshapes carbon bar or I have 2 self made carbon bars.

I don't know numbers as I rarely check wind or windspeed. If I have kite, wind & beach... I kite! I know I often kite alone, with people often astounded with how little wind I need to get out and have fun.



hi Posko . . .

I have the 9m Gong strutless . . . it is quite amazing in bottom end and relaunch. Really slippery kite through the air. Would have loved to see what their smaller 6 and 3 were like. Do you have the batten on your Gongs?

Do you have any pics of your homemade carbon bars?
How did you make the centre holes work?

posko
WA, 171 posts
12 Sep 2017 10:43PM
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@max_ob
My 2 large GONG's have battens. They're second generation and come standard with that option.
My 2 small GONG's are first gen and don't have battens.

My home made bars have "centre hole issues". Right from building the first one in 2001 I've had struggles with how to make the hole better.

Here's a few photos.










max_ob
QLD, 147 posts
13 Sep 2017 9:17PM
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posko said..
@max_ob
My 2 large GONG's have battens. They're second generation and come standard with that option.
My 2 small GONG's are first gen and don't have battens.

My home made bars have "centre hole issues". Right from building the first one in 2001 I've had struggles with how to make the hole better.

Here's a few photos.





My 9m is first gen though I could have gotten it with the batten, I chose not to . . . probably should have as they say that it helps the upper end without hurting the strut less concept . . . but I did not know that at the time . . . hence the gen 2's come standard with the batten.

I have C5 clouds also which are very different kites despite sharing the strut less aspect.

I have wanted to make my own also but the centre hole as you say presents some difficulty for a DYI . . . The bottom bar in that pic above looks to have a nice size centre hole.

I have toyed with the idea of machining some Acetal rod to create a centre piece and then fitting the carbon tubes on each side but it would not be as good as one piece of carbon tube.

Did you make the tubes or can you buy them that way?

jamesperth
WA, 468 posts
Friday , 15 Sep 2017 10:40PM
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Thecopterdr said..




warwickl said..
I have 3 strut wave kites (7 m to 11m) at an average of 3.5 kg, recently purchased a 9 and 12m Cloud kites second hand - average 2 kg. Sub 10 kn down to about 5kn the Cloud kites continue to behave while the strutted kites require a lot of attention and frequently fall and impossible to relaunch.
The Cloud kites have far less swing weight so much kinder to those with golfers elbow (me and now no issue).
Cloud power control and responsiveness in ultra light wind on longer lines is excellent.
To date only Kited with Clouds in max of 15k so stay tuned.Plus one
I expect as others have commented that above 15k wind 3 strut kites would also be adequate for foiling.





Plus one on the Clouds.
I ride a 5.5 and a 9m for free riding down to about 8 knots. I had the 13.5 but sold it after 5 sessions, I found that it didn't get used enough to justify the cost.
I went with Clouds at the start of my foiling career and reckon that if everybody rode them while learning that they would be up and riding ten times quicker...





It's funny I had Cloud C2 17 and C.5 in 3.5 and 5.5m and didn't like any of them ( i really wanted to tho). I only use the CCS bar and I probably should have tried a regular bar but without any kind of trim system the Bar pressure was unbearable for me on the 17 - at the top of the wind range (say 15-16 knots) I would ride for 20-30min tops before that tendonitis feeling would force me to get off the water, but in light winds I found it no better than a 15 foil kite (which was its intended purpose) but certainly lacked the power spike and magical apparent wind creation of say a 15m Sonic or R1. Also was way worse to relaunch if water got on top of the canopy. The smaller sizes were ok in winds above 18 knots but had the most sensitive bar trim I've ever experience. The 3.5 was like a moth in a string it was so fast and would dump me in the water in my butt if I sheeted out an inch too much. Way too sensitive for my style of hydrofoiling and caught me out constantly.

Ive gone back to 5 strut leis and foil kites but am super keen to try these new 1 and 3 strut kites as am hearing good things.

RAL INN
VIC, 2189 posts
Saturday , 16 Sep 2017 8:45AM
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It is a bit of a dilemma picking sizes when you go to the light weight kites.
im currently a one kite quiver Foiler with the 8m Notus Air but as it works from 12kts to around 20 on the Spitfire.
where to go???

bigtone667
NSW, 750 posts
Saturday , 16 Sep 2017 3:43PM
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RAL INN said..
It is a bit of a dilemma picking sizes when you go to the light weight kites.
im currently a one kite quiver Foiler with the 8m Notus Air but as it works from 12kts to around 20 on the Spitfire.
where to go???


If you can get down to 12knots on the 8m, it sounds like a 12m will get you down to 8knots.

bigtone667
NSW, 750 posts
Saturday , 16 Sep 2017 3:49PM
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jamesperth said..

Thecopterdr said..





warwickl said..
I have 3 strut wave kites (7 m to 11m) at an average of 3.5 kg, recently purchased a 9 and 12m Cloud kites second hand - average 2 kg. Sub 10 kn down to about 5kn the Cloud kites continue to behave while the strutted kites require a lot of attention and frequently fall and impossible to relaunch.
The Cloud kites have far less swing weight so much kinder to those with golfers elbow (me and now no issue).
Cloud power control and responsiveness in ultra light wind on longer lines is excellent.
To date only Kited with Clouds in max of 15k so stay tuned.Plus one
I expect as others have commented that above 15k wind 3 strut kites would also be adequate for foiling.






Plus one on the Clouds.
I ride a 5.5 and a 9m for free riding down to about 8 knots. I had the 13.5 but sold it after 5 sessions, I found that it didn't get used enough to justify the cost.
I went with Clouds at the start of my foiling career and reckon that if everybody rode them while learning that they would be up and riding ten times quicker...






It's funny I had Cloud C2 17 and C.5 in 3.5 and 5.5m and didn't like any of them ( i really wanted to tho). I only use the CCS bar and I probably should have tried a regular bar but without any kind of trim system the Bar pressure was unbearable for me on the 17 - at the top of the wind range (say 15-16 knots) I would ride for 20-30min tops before that tendonitis feeling would force me to get off the water, but in light winds I found it no better than a 15 foil kite (which was its intended purpose) but certainly lacked the power spike and magical apparent wind creation of say a 15m Sonic or R1. Also was way worse to relaunch if water got on top of the canopy. The smaller sizes were ok in winds above 18 knots but had the most sensitive bar trim I've ever experience. The 3.5 was like a moth in a string it was so fast and would dump me in the water in my butt if I sheeted out an inch too much. Way too sensitive for my style of hydrofoiling and caught me out constantly.

Ive gone back to 5 strut leis and foil kites but am super keen to try these new 1 and 3 strut kites as am hearing good things.


The 17m is too big on a foil. As soon as you head up wind, you generate too much apparent wind and just end up being over-powered. I have found 13.4D with 30m lines to be the optimum light wind beast for me.

I get your bar pressure point. I kited on a 10m Cab FX the other day and was surprised at how light the bar pressure was. The CCS bar does build muscle.

warwickl
NSW, 786 posts
Saturday , 16 Sep 2017 6:24PM
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I suspect Jamesperth did not have his clouds correctly trimmed.
I am using secondhand Clouds similar versions and all good.
PS - I own 8 kites - strutless Clouds and strutted and am well aware that Clouds need to be trimmed precisely and correctly.
BT can advise on this.

RAL INN
VIC, 2189 posts
Sunday , 17 Sep 2017 3:04PM
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bigtone667 said..

RAL INN said..
It is a bit of a dilemma picking sizes when you go to the light weight kites.
im currently a one kite quiver Foiler with the 8m Notus Air but as it works from 12kts to around 20 on the Spitfire.
where to go???



If you can get down to 12knots on the 8m, it sounds like a 12m will get you down to 8knots.


But here if it gets under 12kts it's very on off and a swim is inevitable

Neptune26
3 posts
Sunday , 17 Sep 2017 1:54PM
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My 10m Strutless kite covers me from 8kts foiling up to 23kts twin tip - then I just have a 7m strutted kite for everything stronger than that.

Always prefer to have more boards than kites!

Yesterday amongst the foilers we had a 17m, 15m, 14m and me on my 10m.

I prefer a smaller kite for manoeuvrability and de-power when on the foil - especially as I am still trying to get my transitions sorted.

bigtone667
NSW, 750 posts
Sunday , 17 Sep 2017 4:47PM
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RAL INN said..

bigtone667 said..


RAL INN said..
It is a bit of a dilemma picking sizes when you go to the light weight kites.
im currently a one kite quiver Foiler with the 8m Notus Air but as it works from 12kts to around 20 on the Spitfire.
where to go???




If you can get down to 12knots on the 8m, it sounds like a 12m will get you down to 8knots.



But here if it gets under 12kts it's very on off and a swim is inevitable


I totally relate to the swim. I try have those sessions on lakes rather than oceans.

Up to about 10 swims in the last year. My best one being a klick through ettalong channel with biters (naturally someone filmed my swim of shame).

RAL INN
VIC, 2189 posts
Sunday , 17 Sep 2017 5:30PM
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I figure the 12m Notus Air should be good for 8 kts and is reverse launchable at 6kts the catch is what you loose in wind as you drift with wind and current.
so it's this that keeps me from bothering below 12kts

jamesperth
WA, 468 posts
Sunday , 17 Sep 2017 8:05PM
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warwickl said..
I suspect Jamesperth did not have his clouds correctly trimmed.
I am using secondhand Clouds similar versions and all good.
PS - I own 8 kites - strutless Clouds and strutted and am well aware that Clouds need to be trimmed precisely and correctly.
BT can advise on this.



I think this was the case too Warwickl but there is not much to trim in the CCS bar. Everything was brand new, and I adjusted the steering lines after 5-10 hours (I forget) like Greg said.

I am the sort of kiter who is constantly trimming my kites during the session - I really missed not having a trim strap on the ccs Setup. I also rode exclusively foils for 3-4 years so my idea of bar pressure is totally distorted. The guys I sold them to like them, that's the main thing.

Bletti
WA, 130 posts
Monday , 18 Sep 2017 2:24PM
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I use my cloud kites with an ozone race bar. I prefer having the trim, especially when riding toe side upwind to trim the bar a little closer.

TomW059
138 posts
Tuesday , 19 Sep 2017 1:52AM
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A bit off topic. I have 7-9-12 North Mono. I've about 50 or so sessions on them collectively. Most on 9 and 12.
I can already see cloth wear on the trailing edge of the rip stop, in area transitioning to the stronger TE cloth.
On the HF I sheet out a lot on these kites and the cloth is moving.
On the beach they flap, but should point out I never ever leave kites flapping on sand other than to roll up my lines, sometimes change out of my wetsuit, maximum 10 min on beach.
These kites won't last more than 2 seasons.
I have 3 year old Core XR kites with same use, and cannot see any of this wear.

bigtone667
NSW, 750 posts
Tuesday , 19 Sep 2017 8:02AM
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TomW059 said..
A bit off topic. I have 7-9-12 North Mono. I've about 50 or so sessions on them collectively. Most on 9 and 12.
I can already see cloth wear on the trailing edge of the rip stop, in area transitioning to the stronger TE cloth.
On the HF I sheet out a lot on these kites and the cloth is moving.
On the beach they flap, but should point out I never ever leave kites flapping on sand other than to roll up my lines, sometimes change out of my wetsuit, maximum 10 min on beach.
These kites won't last more than 2 seasons.
I have 3 year old Core XR kites with same use, and cannot see any of this wear.


I am up to about 250 odd sessions on the five Clouds I have and the only wear I have is on 12m kite from self launching and on the bar and lines.



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"Strutless kites" started by warwickl