Forums > Kitesurfing General

Foiling is going to lead to the end of kitesurfing

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Created by bramber 2 months ago, 20 Mar 2019
cauncy
WA, 7143 posts
23 Mar 2019 10:18AM
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dbabicwa said..
Ep,

did you read this on page 1: "No pics? Ah well...Before you *jump* into conclusions,I do foil."

This discussion is not about you or me, but the claim that "Foiling is going to lead to the end of kitesurfing".

As said, do we need a TT crowd? No one dares to answer that. Not even you.

Since no one knows the answer, and "is a serious issue with foiling that needs to be addressed" the easiest is to say "avoid talking about something you haven't even done."

Plus, by reading I would say you have a few foil wings. How is that cheap is unknown to me.

I've had enough. Bye..


Mate calm down and check this out
you have that money saved for some gear in no time


Plummet
4428 posts
23 Mar 2019 10:38AM
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cauncy said..

dbabicwa said..
Ep,

did you read this on page 1: "No pics? Ah well...Before you *jump* into conclusions,I do foil."

This discussion is not about you or me, but the claim that "Foiling is going to lead to the end of kitesurfing".

As said, do we need a TT crowd? No one dares to answer that. Not even you.

Since no one knows the answer, and "is a serious issue with foiling that needs to be addressed" the easiest is to say "avoid talking about something you haven't even done."

Plus, by reading I would say you have a few foil wings. How is that cheap is unknown to me.

I've had enough. Bye..



Mate calm down and check this out
you have that money saved for some gear in no time



Half price, that's a good deal.

Weta
WA, 830 posts
23 Mar 2019 6:59PM
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I'm a little confused as to what dbacicwa point was??? he's obviously passionate about his opinions but he lost me.

I have some really good Macedonian grappa from the old country so i will have a couple of shots and a strong turkish style coffee and re-read the thread. Enlightenment comes to those who seek clarity or vise versa

eppo
WA, 6965 posts
23 Mar 2019 8:40PM
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Yeh I was stumped as well

Plummet
4428 posts
24 Mar 2019 9:50AM
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I used to get annoyed about what others on the interwebnet thought a few years back.

But then I came to the realization that it did not matter at all if someone on the other side of the world thought I was right or wrong.
It really was incredibly trivial and ridiculously narcissistic to believe I was that important that it mattered even remotely.
I got over it and moved on. Now I just provide my input. Some like it, others do not.

Let us listen to Carl Sagan and relish in our own insignificance.




maxpower1
WA, 12 posts
24 Mar 2019 6:22PM
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Plummet. I don't think I need to watch old Carl, as interesting as he is. You nailed it perfectly. Other's negative opinions do not matter if you enjoy what you do. Remember this. Most of the grumpy opinionated remarks come from middle aged men (me being one too ??) who spend more time on the beach with their hands on their hips talking about how much they know than actually doing it.


Juddy
WA, 1059 posts
25 Mar 2019 2:00PM
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The simple response to the OP's comment/question/statement is.....

NO

iandvnt
QLD, 523 posts
26 Mar 2019 3:04PM
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Mast $1000 Board $1100 fuselage and wings $1200

Functioning surfboard from cashies $60

This is a problem for the less affluent.

eppo
WA, 6965 posts
26 Mar 2019 1:53PM
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oh boy...let me just go to the buy and sell section... hang on...

Quick glance, 6 adds down, complete Zeeko blue board, mast and fuselage for 1000 bucks.

Anyone who can't afford this can't afford kites anyhow. Too bad too sad really.

and you can afford anything if you truly desire it, just cut back on the cigarettes, beer and junk food for while.

dbabicwa
WA, 740 posts
26 Mar 2019 5:11PM
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eppo said..
oh boy...let me just go to the buy and sell section... hang on...

Quick glance, 6 adds down, complete Zeeko blue board, mast and fuselage for 1000 bucks.

Anyone who can't afford this can't afford kites anyhow. Too bad too sad really.

and you can afford anything if you truly desire it, just cut back on the cigarettes, beer and junk food for while.




Only the real expert would notice tiny cracks on the fuselage or wings or anywhere by that matter.

And than it costs double to fix it. Talking tightarse. The TT or SB is 100% easier to buy second hand. HF? How many wings you have, didn't bother to answer? How many masts? Short, med, long? I'm not asking you Ep, but readers, just look at the garage. Do not wan't to believe me? Fine. Can't care less...

You guys are kidding yourself's with "Who gives a flying f**k about a crowd."

Really???? Again, maybe, just maybe, some really do not care.

But than, some of you splat your pics all over the internet! Let's see, Woo has how many users? Other devices? Pic?

Right. It is NOT about the crowd!

How wrong I was. The pics will never see a surface. No crowd will see it ever.

Here, this:

Select to expand quote


Yes we still need twintips as watching people do huge airs and powered tricks makes people go 'wow I want to try that!'
Unfortunately you hardly see anyone doing a decent boost anymore, 20 knots seems to equal a 9m kite these days when it used to be a12.No one wants to be in the fun zone of being overpowered.




Right. It is NOT about the crowd! It's about the HYPE of foiling.

lotofwind
NSW, 5040 posts
26 Mar 2019 8:48PM
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^^^^^WOW
A lot of words but still not sure wtf he is on about lol.

Plummet
4428 posts
26 Mar 2019 5:54PM
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You guys are right, db Is ranting on about nothing in particular. It's quite bizarre.... I guess he just wants to be angry about something.

Plummet
4428 posts
26 Mar 2019 6:08PM
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On a completely different note. I had a guy in at work today showing me 3D printed titanium parts. Now that is awesome as Fark. The entry cost into a small 3 printed titanium part is around $160 nzd if you provide the 3D model.

Now I need to model up some kite bits to print in titanium. Ohhhh the mind boggles.

eppo
WA, 6965 posts
26 Mar 2019 6:56PM
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I have one wing (680 axis ) and one mast 75cm (axis) and one board.

... and I still have no idea what you are talking about? Honestly I'm trying my hardest to understand ...?

Are you saying that foiling gear is expensive to buy and fix and that crowds do matter ? Matter for what ? Exposure to generate sales ? Or crowds don't matter ? Heck I don't know ...

3 D printing ... the mind boggles on the application to kite gear not too mention just about nearly other product out there ... and the cost reduction. Titanium you say ... bloody hell!

Gorgo
VIC, 4149 posts
26 Mar 2019 10:31PM
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dbabicwa said..

.....


Right. It is NOT about the crowd! It's about the HYPE of foiling.



The HYPE of foiling is wrong. It's way way way better than the HYPE.

wishy
WA, 1357 posts
26 Mar 2019 7:46PM
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dbabicwa said..

eppo said..
oh boy...let me just go to the buy and sell section... hang on...

Quick glance, 6 adds down, complete Zeeko blue board, mast and fuselage for 1000 bucks.

Anyone who can't afford this can't afford kites anyhow. Too bad too sad really.

and you can afford anything if you truly desire it, just cut back on the cigarettes, beer and junk food for while.





Only the real expert would notice tiny cracks on the fuselage or wings or anywhere by that matter.

And than it costs double to fix it. Talking tightarse. The TT or SB is 100% easier to buy second hand. HF? How many wings you have, didn't bother to answer? How many masts? Short, med, long? I'm not asking you Ep, but readers, just look at the garage. Do not wan't to believe me? Fine. Can't care less...

You guys are kidding yourself's with "Who gives a flying f**k about a crowd."

Really???? Again, maybe, just maybe, some really do not care.

But than, some of you splat your pics all over the internet! Let's see, Woo has how many users? Other devices? Pic?

Right. It is NOT about the crowd!

How wrong I was. The pics will never see a surface. No crowd will see it ever.

Here, this:




Yes we still need twintips as watching people do huge airs and powered tricks makes people go 'wow I want to try that!'
Unfortunately you hardly see anyone doing a decent boost anymore, 20 knots seems to equal a 9m kite these days when it used to be a12.No one wants to be in the fun zone of being overpowered.





Right. It is NOT about the crowd! It's about the HYPE of foiling.


This guy's brain is all over the place, imagine he cooked you dinner it would be something like :

"Chicken with mint jelly, parmesan cheese and vegemite icecream"

Gorgo
VIC, 4149 posts
26 Mar 2019 10:55PM
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Some old fart on a foil.

dbabicwa
WA, 740 posts
26 Mar 2019 8:30PM
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It is simple really, as mentioned many times:

- you are moving the lawn.

What Im trying to understand, as a foiler, is how this is not obvious? Till yesterday, it was u guys making funny comments about the same on a TT! Like Yesterday!

The less appealing for the crowd, the less sales, less shops, and ultimately, end of sport as we know it. Just what OP said. But hey, Im a troll!

It does not matter that every kiter worth any salt does not want to foil on my local, right? Particularly when nuking.
But when I said it here, its so controversial...

It also does not matter that for some takes a few years, if ever, to manage a foot switch! But hey, I know nothing.

No wonder just only a few people expressed their opinion.

SB in its best.

dbabicwa
WA, 740 posts
26 Mar 2019 8:33PM
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Gorgo said..
Some old fart on a foil.







Yes, and? That puts u in 1%...as you know, it is super easy to jump the HF. Just like a hens teeth on my local tho, but again its not about the crowd and you slapped a pic?

Basic trick on a TT. Next please. Remember, I do not need convincing. Well know what is possible.

What Im saying, foilers need to lift up the game significantly to please the crowd.

But they cant if the attitude is what it is...

U can do 10 mobes but the highest jump is what people gets excited.

out.

eppo
WA, 6965 posts
26 Mar 2019 9:04PM
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If you say you are a Foiler and you are mowing the lawn then you must be doing it wrong.

But I will assume you mean from an observers relative perspective. That is true. I thought the very same thing until I tried it.

Its a massive extrapolation to say this will mean reduced sales. Infact it's downright absurd to be honest. It doesn't even hold up to its own weird logic but I can't be bothered explaining why as you've probably never dabbled in proofs.

Every kiter worth their salt does not want to foil? They will... eventually.

Few years to master a foot switch? Damn man you really do suck on a foil

... lift their game to please the crowd? What kind of strange narcissistic world do you live in man?

Underoath
QLD, 2333 posts
26 Mar 2019 11:30PM
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Ride what you ride.... be happy.

My thoughts on foiling and the industry.

Limited progression once past the mowing stage. Yes I know its technical to get to that stage, but after 10 hours of learning, whats next?
- If you are after speed, that makes sense.
- If you have bad knees and can't handle the chop, I get that.

I did try it once for about 15min at Pinneroo, I failed and cut my little toe. It is tricky.
But once you have the muscle memory, it would be pretty simple.

I'll probably take up foiling, one day. However- Im mid 30's, still have two ACL's and 1.5 rotator cuffs, so no rush just yet to hang up the boots.

This 'hype' around foiling that people talk about is 'fake hype' - It's all conger-ed up by the marketing spend by the big kite brands.
Margins on foiling equipment should still be healthy, and an obvious focus for the struggling kite companies. Same could be said on SUP 666 equipment.

Interesting that they are both marketed to the Baby boomer. If I ran a business, I'd do the same thing too. You can't blame kite companies for that.

I did feel that the foil marketing strategy was getting rather saturated about 6-12 months back, I had to follow 2 of the largest kite companies. Foil adds after foil adds.


Flame away.


DukeSilver
WA, 253 posts
26 Mar 2019 10:03PM
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dbabicwa said..

Gorgo said..
Some old fart on a foil.








Yes, and? That puts u in 1%...as you know, it is super easy to jump the HF. Just like a hens teeth on my local tho, but again its not about the crowd and you slapped a pic?

Basic trick on a TT. Next please. Remember, I do not need convincing. Well know what is possible.

What Im saying, foilers need to lift up the game significantly to please the crowd.

But they cant if the attitude is what it is...

U can do 10 mobes but the highest jump is what people gets excited.

out.


You keep going on about your local. Pelican Point is a shallow water spot. Very few foilers go there, and those that do, have to walk out 100m+ to get to a suitable foiling depth. Then they stay out the back and many go cruising around the river, enjoying the upwind and downwind angles that foiling allows.

Believe it or not, not everyone feels the need to CONSTANTLY perform for a crowd. In fact, it's the short tacking show offs that make me so happy to be foiling away from the congestion created by delusional pro-kiter wannabes. We've recently seen or heard about the results of overly aggressive TT / Airstyle promotional methods. Do you think that Chinese tourist is going to have warm and fuzzy memories of kitesurfing every time she glances down and the scar from her badly broken leg? Every spot has a couple these guys, so focussed on being the big fish in their little pond, that they forget about the safety of the others that they are sharing the water with. But hey, we need them for the kiting industry to survive right?

Understand that foiling is here to stay. TT and SB are here to stay as well. None of them are under threat. All three are different and trying to compare them and rank them is a pointless exercise. Foiling doesn't need to be done to the extreme to be enjoyable, and if it looks boring to spectators and other kiter's, who gives a frogs fat arse? The SUP industry seems to be going ok and that's hardIy the worlds most dynamic sport. I'd say that looks like the most awkward and dull water sport ever created, yet, I bet no one reading this who also loves SUPing will give a toss about my assessment of it because they realise I've probably only ever tried it once while they have learned to surf them or do downwinders on them. So they would say I'm talking out of my arse - and they'd be right.

Anyway, I personally hope (for selfish reasons) , that foiling doesn't get much more popular. The joy of riding by yourself or with only another couple of foilers on a 12 knot day is hard to beat.

Plummet
4428 posts
27 Mar 2019 1:40AM
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eppo said..

Infact it's downright absurd to be honest. It doesn't even hold up to its own weird logic but I can't be bothered explaining why as you've probably never dabbled in proofs.


It's like explaining science to a religious person. Their "Faith" precluded them from seeing objective truths. They cherry pick the data that suits there argument and omit the data they contradict' their doctrines.

In this thread alone there is a data pool of about 8 foilers. 2 have posted pictures of jumping foils. Based on our statistically inaccurate data pool thats 25% of foilers jumping and riding powered. Where does DB get his 0.1% and 1% figures from???? what research?
Maybe we need to load up a survey asking this questions so we can calculate some statically significant figures from a wider data pool?

Plummet
4428 posts
27 Mar 2019 1:50AM
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Underoath said..
Ride what you ride.... be happy.

My thoughts on foiling and the industry.

Limited progression once past the mowing stage. Yes I know its technical to get to that stage, but after 10 hours of learning, whats next?
- If you are after speed, that makes sense.
- If you have bad knees and can't handle the chop, I get that.

I did try it once for about 15min at Pinneroo, I failed and cut my little toe. It is tricky.
But once you have the muscle memory, it would be pretty simple.

I'll probably take up foiling, one day. However- Im mid 30's, still have two ACL's and 1.5 rotator cuffs, so no rush just yet to hang up the boots.

This 'hype' around foiling that people talk about is 'fake hype' - It's all conger-ed up by the marketing spend by the big kite brands.
Margins on foiling equipment should still be healthy, and an obvious focus for the struggling kite companies. Same could be said on SUP 666 equipment.

Interesting that they are both marketed to the Baby boomer. If I ran a business, I'd do the same thing too. You can't blame kite companies for that.

I did feel that the foil marketing strategy was getting rather saturated about 6-12 months back, I had to follow 2 of the largest kite companies. Foil adds after foil adds.


Flame away.





To add to your list of what foiling is good for.

Adventure kiting, Exploring the ocean and coatline. Thats something you can't easily do on a TT/SB without going to the inconvenience of a downwinder.

Wave riding and swell riding. You essentially have a 3 foot wave extension bolted to your board. You can amplify any wave by 3 foot. Infact you no longer need a breaking wave to enjoy wave riding. You can ride a swell from 2km out to sea into the beach with as much joy as riding a breaking wave on a surface board.

If you have ridden waves for years and years you can get a different experience and rider more shallow crappy waves that now become fun. It expands your fun zone in waves.

If you are into boosting you can use a foil to boost high in light winds,

theDoctor
NSW, 4733 posts
27 Mar 2019 5:59AM
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Why do macedonians have flat spots on the back of their heads. .?

eppo
WA, 6965 posts
27 Mar 2019 5:27AM
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It's not often I say this because there is always an element of truth, no one holds the absolute truth.

But underoath, mostly everything you said is completely incorrect. If you did it for more than 15 minutes you'd understand. Like with any aspect of the sport there is so much to learn and master.... and it's not as easy as you'd think to master these.

You are probably right about the saturation of foil marketing but there is a business to run and money to be made.

but the hype isn't fake. But you won't know until you increase your 15 minutes at it. There's a large divide between reality and the theory Running around someone's head.

Forr example : I used to believe that this wakestyle spaz monkey style aspect to the sport was ridiculous. Talk about Fake hype. But as I have looked more deeply into it (to understand what my Son is learning) I have a new found respect and really enjoy watching it now.

Infact I'm quite devastated (like really fckn existentialist type devastation) my body cannot take the punishment to learn this aspect to a higher level. It is highly intriguing - the technical aspect of it. The need to execute all the tiny aspects correctly.

Same with foiling.



drsurf
NSW, 32 posts
28 Mar 2019 12:48AM
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dbabicwa said..
It is simple really, as mentioned many times:

- you are moving the lawn.

What Im trying to understand, as a foiler, is how this is not obvious? Till yesterday, it was u guys making funny comments about the same on a TT! Like Yesterday!

The less appealing for the crowd, the less sales, less shops, and ultimately, end of sport as we know it. Just what OP said. But hey, Im a troll!

It does not matter that every kiter worth any salt does not want to foil on my local, right? Particularly when nuking.
But when I said it here, its so controversial...

It also does not matter that for some takes a few years, if ever, to manage a foot switch! But hey, I know nothing.

No wonder just only a few people expressed their opinion.

SB in its best.


Hey all you WA people, this guy is one of yours. I'll take his comment from the first line and the end of the third last line, "It is simple really, as mentioned many times: But hey, I know nothing."
That about sums it up with regard to his comments here and other forums, usually unintelligible. Has anyone ever see him kite at all or is he just in his bedroom on the Internet making out he's the oracle of how we should kite or foil?
Obviously has no concept of foiling in waves if he's at a shallow flat water location.

Livit
WA, 437 posts
28 Mar 2019 12:40PM
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dbabicwa said..

eppo said..
oh boy...let me just go to the buy and sell section... hang on...

Quick glance, 6 adds down, complete Zeeko blue board, mast and fuselage for 1000 bucks.

Anyone who can't afford this can't afford kites anyhow. Too bad too sad really.

and you can afford anything if you truly desire it, just cut back on the cigarettes, beer and junk food for while.





Only the real expert would notice tiny cracks on the fuselage or wings or anywhere by that matter.

And than it costs double to fix it. Talking tightarse. The TT or SB is 100% easier to buy second hand. HF? How many wings you have, didn't bother to answer? How many masts? Short, med, long? I'm not asking you Ep, but readers, just look at the garage. Do not wan't to believe me? Fine. Can't care less...


Right. It is NOT about the crowd! It's about the HYPE of foiling.


I used to have a $3500 set up when I started 4 years ago. I am now on what is advertised as a beginner foil that I got brand new for $1100 paired with a home made board that cost me $300 to build.

I'd like to get more wings but it is fair to say that my "beginner" set up cover 90% of my needs after 4 years of foiling.

Not sure what you are trying to prove. If people want to have 3 foils and 6 kites of course it is not gonna be cheap however, the reality is that if someone is getting into foiling, it doesn't have to be expensive.

hilly
WA, 4560 posts
28 Mar 2019 2:09PM
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Different strokes for different folks

I think a foil expands your time on the water. Strong wind and waves I use a surfboard. Light wind and flat (at the moment) I use my foil. Same kite. Might venture more into waves on the foil soon.

bigtone667
NSW, 1028 posts
28 Mar 2019 6:51PM
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I would have preferred to be boosting .... but....I got some nice runs, good exercise, vitamin D in 8 to 10 knots. Top speed of 35km/h



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"Foiling is going to lead to the end of kitesurfing" started by bramber