thank kevin rudd for my kite

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kiter789
kiter789
NSW
238 posts
NSW, 238 posts
7 Feb 2009 6:22pm
I'm always baffled that people are moaning about this handout, as though the Labour government has pulled a swifty. So the the Labour government is banking on neo Keynesianism and multiplier effects to stimulate the economy. Surprise! Who would have thunk it?! It's almost like they're a centre left government....well, we didn't see that coming!

This to me is the tragedy of Australian politics - that people are told over and over the economic proclivities of the major parties, and yet seem surprised when they do exactly, predictably what they said they would.



theDoctor
theDoctor
NSW
5786 posts
NSW, 5786 posts
7 Feb 2009 7:27pm
left wing/right wing.... just like a bird, they are both controlled by the same central body. politics is a distracting smoke and mirrors show, the name of the game is control and the way to do this is through debt.
australia is a corporation.
Smedg
Smedg
NSW
836 posts
NSW, 836 posts
7 Feb 2009 10:35pm
kiter789 said...

I'm always baffled that people are moaning about this handout, as though the Labour government has pulled a swifty. So the the Labour government is banking on neo Keynesianism and multiplier effects to stimulate the economy. Surprise! Who would have thunk it?! It's almost like they're a centre left government....well, we didn't see that coming!




What the hell is neo Keynesianism? Please explain..
mytchook
mytchook
QLD
561 posts
QLD, 561 posts
7 Feb 2009 9:54pm
Smedg said...

kiter789 said...

I'm always baffled that people are moaning about this handout, as though the Labour government has pulled a swifty. So the the Labour government is banking on neo Keynesianism and multiplier effects to stimulate the economy. Surprise! Who would have thunk it?! It's almost like they're a centre left government....well, we didn't see that coming!




What the hell is neo Keynesianism? Please explain..



Neo-Keynesian economics
Through the 1980s Keynesian macro-economics fell out of fashion as a policy tool, and as a field of study. Instead it was felt that combining economics with behavioral science, game theory and monetary theory were more important areas of study. On the policy level it was the era of Margaret Thatcher and Ronald Reagan, who advocated slashing the size of the non-military government sector. However, beginning in the late 1980s economics began shifting back to a study of macro-economics, and policy makers began to look for means of managing the global financial network, which was increasingly interlinked.

In the 1990s the "uncoupling" of money supply and inflation caused an increasing questioning of the original form of monetarism. The repeated failures of "big bang" marketization in the former Soviet Bloc, have encouraged the recent revival in Keynesian ideas, with particular emphasis on giving the Keynesian macroeconomic analysis theoretically sound foundations in microeconomics. These theories have been called new Keynesian economics. The heart of the new Keynesian view rests on microeconomic models that indicate that nominal wages and prices are "sticky," i.e., do not change easily or quickly with changes in supply and demand, so that quantity adjustment prevails. This is a practice which, according to economist Paul Krugman "works beautifully in practice but very badly in theory."[1] This integration is further spurred by work of other economists which questions rational decision-making in a perfect information environment as a necessity for micro-economic theory. Imperfect decision making such as that investigated by Joseph Stiglitz underlines the importance of management of risk in the economy.

New classical economics relied on the theory of rational expectations to reject Keynesian economics. Most well-known is the critique by Robert Lucas, who argues that rational expectations will defeat any monetary or fiscal policy. But new Keynesians argue that this critique only works if the economy has a unique equilibrium at full employment. Price stickiness means that there are a variety of possible equilibria in the short run, so that rational expectations models do not produce any simple result.

In the end, many macroeconomists have returned to the IS-LM model and the Phillips Curve as a first approximation of how an economy works. New versions of the Phillips Curve, such as the "Triangle Model", allow for stagflation, since the curve can shift due to supply shocks or changes in built-in inflation. In the 1990s, the original ideas of "full employment" had been replaced by the NAIRU theory, sometimes called the "natural rate of unemployment." This theory pointed to the dangers of getting unemployment too low, because accelerating inflation can result. However, it is unclear exactly what the value of the NAIRU is -- or whether it really exists or not. While the Keynesian triumphalism of the 1960s is certainly not due for a revival, Keynesian ideas persist, often used to attain very conservative goals.

For a relatively open economy this simple Keynesianism must be complemented by considerations of foreign exchange markets, exchange rates, and the balance of payments. Also needed is an understanding of issues of long-term growth of potential. The open economy considerations which were the basis of the conservative or neo-liberal revival of policy, were then codified by Keynesian economists.



I love Wikipedia
mytchook
mytchook
QLD
561 posts
QLD, 561 posts
7 Feb 2009 10:01pm
This Quote however, explains it better:


If we take the principles of Integral Politics seriously, we must strive to preserve and promote the deepest development for the greatest number of beings. In practice, this means that we need to find ways to balance economic and political development through a globalized polity, so that future economic processes do not lead to even greater economic polarization. Historically, this particular imbalance is nothing new, as economic integration has frequently advanced more rapidly than political integration. In the following I roughly outline a progression of economy polity relations that provides an idea as to what the next stage of our politico-economic organization might be.

With the emergence of capitalism and the explanation of its functioning that Adam Smith first provided, one can say that there was a phase in which the economy was primarily national andthe polity was not supposed to intervene much in the economy. The polity was thus practically non-existent as far as the economy was concerned (except to enforce contracts perhaps). Thiswas the phase of classical liberalism, of the basically unregulated national economy, whichbegan in Western Europe around 1800 and lasted until the 1930s (most economies were, of course, only an approximation of this description—in reality all economies were mixed, with the balance tending to favor the market). This phase ended as a result of its own instability, as exemplified by the Great Depression. The next phase was classical Keynesianism, which, in accordance with the principles outlined by Maynard Keynes, gave a significant role to the national polity in guiding the national economy (along with some limited international controls, which made national controls possible). This phase lasted until the early 1970s, which is when Keynesianism collapsed due to its inability to manage the contradictions between the demands of the business sector and the general population. The practical result was the increasing indebtedness of the Western welfare states (and also eventually a debt crisis for the Third World). The increase in world trade began to create increasing pressure to bring about a new system of politico-economic management, as companies chose the most favorable locations for investment, whether those were within or outside of the polity which regulated them. Thus, the late 1970s thus represent the beginning of a global regime of economic neo-liberalism that was accompanied by the persistence of national politics and the ideology of neo-liberalism, as represented by Margaret Thatcher and Ronald Reagan. This is basically the phase and type of globalization we are still experiencing.

The next phase will in all likelihood be a catching-up of the polity to the same global level at which the economy is already operating. In other words, because international neo-liberalism is unsustainable, due to the increasing polarization and environmental destruction it produces, we can expect to see a new phase in the near future, that of global neo-Keynesianism, when the polity becomes global too and can re-)regulate the global economy. An example of this process is the European Union, which is currently introducing a stronger regional (Europe-wide) polity, precisely so that it can better deal with its region-wide economic, social, and ecological problems.

Many prominent economists have already floated proposals for creating a global neo-Keynesian political economy, such as former World Bank chief economist Joseph Stiglitz, Harvard development economist Jeffrey Sachs, economic Nobel laureate James Tobin, and global financier George Soros. Their proposals range from introducing a global tax on currency speculation (the Tobin Tax) to the creation of a global central bank to international capital controls. The primary objective of these proposals is generally to dismantle the current regime of “beggar thy neighbor” in which countries compete to offer the best investment opportunities for free-floating capital by dismantling all national restrictions or controls on investment (ranging, from environmental to labor to human rights regulations). Most importantly, global neo-Keynesian controls can also contribute to a reversal of global economic polarization.

We should be under no illusions, however, that global neo-Keynesianism is an end-point in our politico-economic development. It too will sooner or later suffer from similar internal contradictions that national Keynesianism suffered, and we, as a global society, will then have to look for a new systemic logic. However, until then, global neo-Keynesianism is the most likely alternative.
Smedg
Smedg
NSW
836 posts
NSW, 836 posts
8 Feb 2009 12:04am
wow. can't believe I found that interesting. haha. Thanks mytchook. Thought about looking it up myself but between us all at seabreeze we got a pretty awesome knowledge base on such a wide range of things. eg what percentage of the average population do you think know the purpose of a Go Joe and that they are possibly the coolest thing since roller blades. So I thought it would be good to ask hear.

others may be tempted to read read your posts and learn a little too. (I knew nothing about that stuff, now I know a tiny bit) Glad you posted it for us all.

@ kiter789. What do you think of the plan at hand? I see you saw it coming, mychooks second post seems to think it has merit, What do you think?
mytchook
mytchook
QLD
561 posts
QLD, 561 posts
7 Feb 2009 11:18pm
Smedg, my opinion of the whole global economic crisis etd.. is basically, what goes up MUST come down.

The economy could not keep going as well as it was as it was just not sustainable.

kiter789
kiter789
NSW
238 posts
NSW, 238 posts
8 Feb 2009 10:21am
Smedg said...



@ kiter789. What do you think of the plan at hand? I see you saw it coming, mychooks second post seems to think it has merit, What do you think?


I think a lot of things about it - but for the sake of brevity - I think it's one of about two options, and I like it. I think it's reasonable, responsible and hopefully will work. I think generally think Rudd's government are pretty onto it. I also think, were Howard's lot in government, that he'd be doing something similar. Turnbull hasn't really offered viable, well thought through alternatives. And let's not forget, the public service doesn't change with the government. Howard's economists are Rudd's economists - and they're not especially radical.

The reality is that the global economy is way more screwed that most people think - this really is a huge upheaval, one that we have yet to feel the teeth of. I think we're somewhat buffered so far because large segments of our economy are a bit more insulated, and our service economy is not as highly developed as in the US..., and because Australia is incredibly wealthy with one of the highest standards of living (which translates into human capital) in the world. But wait till the mining contracts start to run out in the next year or so....already things are starting to look darker....Soon we will begin to see some harsher effects.

Australia has 'fat' to burn and I think of all the countries affected is well situated to cope. But in saying that I am pleased that Rudd is in government, because I think he listens to really boring economists who Know Their **.

There's also lots of good things to come out of this downturn as well - generally people will buy less crap, and live less energy intensive lives. They might even start eating dinner at home more often.

Also I just heard yesterday that public school rolls are increasing - and less religious (private) schooling has to be a positive thing. It's always galled me that private schools get public funding - what happened to the separation of church and state??!

In short; there are many silver linings!





Smedg
Smedg
NSW
836 posts
NSW, 836 posts
8 Feb 2009 10:58am
Sweet. Thanks for the explanations. Yeah, i always thought that previous governments sounded pretty full of **** when trying to explain their reasons for helping to fund private schools. Generally 1 or 2 big famous private schools would get a **** load of government funding so that the government could run some old fashioned sounding line like they support the publics right to have a choice or public or private schools. Then they would fund almost all other private schools with a fair portion of cash. But in reality, I think that by partially funding every child that attends private school the government saves themselves from fully funding a public school child and that saving money was the real reason for funding private schools for quite a long time. I personally prefer and support public education, public health care and the likes. (suspect i'm partially socialist, maybe even communist.) I would love to only have one type of toothpaste to choose from. But on the other hand, I'm a greedy ****er who definitely could not live without a kite.

Good luck to Ruddy and all of us. If he tell me to spend free money, I'll spend it. Probably would of anyway. ps everyone should buy local organic when they can (and not from coles but from the source.)

ps what better place to talk and learn about politics than seabreeze. On ya Laurie. Seabreeze truly has it all.
SaveTheWhales
SaveTheWhales
WA
1913 posts
WA, 1913 posts
8 Feb 2009 9:20am
Food for thought..

The movie 'A Beautiful Mind' russel crow actor

Does anyone remember what he got a NOBEL PEACE PRIZE for ???

you dont get one for being an idiot or having a hidden political agenda
Inflation does what to the economy again ???

No one wants to go down that road because they cant get an extra buck out of you !!! Greed Greed Greed
BigAirPaul
BigAirPaul
QLD
140 posts
QLD, 140 posts
8 Feb 2009 10:36am
No...
Thank ME for my new kite...
Overtime from working on weekends (when I'd rather be kiting) etc., so that I can buy what I want.
If it happens or not, I know that I won't be getting a share of the handout, so the only person I have to thank for my new equipment is ME !!!
Guess that would be true for a lot of us...
And I probably will enjoy it more !!!
BAP
Smedg
Smedg
NSW
836 posts
NSW, 836 posts
8 Feb 2009 11:43am
@ BAP. Like all of us you BAP, have things to be grateful for. Its empowering to think that its all thanks to yourself but had you been born in a different place or at a different time or with different surrounding circumstances, your life would undoubtedly be different. You are not and Island. If the economy were to collapse there may not be a job for you to work overtime at. In the mean time. The economy and I appreciate your hard work.
BigAirPaul
BigAirPaul
QLD
140 posts
QLD, 140 posts
8 Feb 2009 11:01am
Smedg said...
[The economy and I appreciate your hard work.

It's nice to be appreciated !!! I gave you a thumbs up...
And it was a good point, well presented... I am only too aware that I have a lot of things to be grateful for.
BAP
mytchook
mytchook
QLD
561 posts
QLD, 561 posts
8 Feb 2009 11:56am
This may be good for the global economy:

A guy called Ryszard Gold—who probably is an alien villain from the Outer Rim planets and got a 49-point score in our Geek Social Aptitude Test—made the calculation of the most basic Death Star's price with current materials and space transport costs here on Earth.
Quote:
• First, assume that 1/10 of the 17.16 quadrillion cubic meters of the Death Star is something other than empty space and 6/10 of the total volume is pressurized space.
• That will require 1.71 quadrillion cubic meters of steel, about 134 quadrillion tonnes. That's $12.95 quintillion in current 2008 prices, and that's without counting strange alloys and elements.
• Shipping that to space will cost $95 million per tonne: So add $12.79 septillion in transport.
• Now you need to add air, which will require 8.23 quintillion cubic meters of Nitrogen, and 1.65 quintillion cubic meters of oxygen, for a total delivery cost of $2.81 septillions and $212.46 quintillion.
The total: $15,602,022,489,829,821,422,840,226.94.

I will pledge the 94 cents.

And yes, I know that this is a totally ridiculous concept, but to think that someone actually sat down and worked this out is pretty funny.
merman
merman
QLD
431 posts
QLD, 431 posts
8 Feb 2009 3:17pm
wow this thread has gotten all civilized ... interesting stuff nice one guys...

good change from my trolling BS
stabber
stabber
NSW
1114 posts
NSW, 1114 posts
8 Feb 2009 8:45pm
I just got a boner reading your thread input Chooky!

I love economics...and you're right...everything that goes up does come down.....I made a fortune on the USD late last year...

And IMO I will clean up as it plummets again in 3 months...

Buy Gold people!

DISCLAIMER:
See your financial adviser for advice...don't take mine....
mytchook
mytchook
QLD
561 posts
QLD, 561 posts
8 Feb 2009 8:18pm
ha ha ha, I am happy for you Stabber, glad I could be of assistance.

I am starting my studies in July to do a Batchelor of Commerce with a double Major, Accounting and Business Law. I too love talking economics!!
Fooosh
Fooosh
WA
563 posts
WA, 563 posts
8 Feb 2009 11:39pm
mytchook said...

This may be good for the global economy:

A guy called Ryszard Gold—who probably is an alien villain from the Outer Rim planets and got a 49-point score in our Geek Social Aptitude Test—made the calculation of the most basic Death Star's price with current materials and space transport costs here on Earth.
Quote:
• First, assume that 1/10 of the 17.16 quadrillion cubic meters of the Death Star is something other than empty space and 6/10 of the total volume is pressurized space.
• That will require 1.71 quadrillion cubic meters of steel, about 134 quadrillion tonnes. That's $12.95 quintillion in current 2008 prices, and that's without counting strange alloys and elements.
• Shipping that to space will cost $95 million per tonne: So add $12.79 septillion in transport.
• Now you need to add air, which will require 8.23 quintillion cubic meters of Nitrogen, and 1.65 quintillion cubic meters of oxygen, for a total delivery cost of $2.81 septillions and $212.46 quintillion.
The total: $15,602,022,489,829,821,422,840,226.94.

I will pledge the 94 cents.

And yes, I know that this is a totally ridiculous concept, but to think that someone actually sat down and worked this out is pretty funny.



What about labour? Isn't what this is all about??? (Not to mention fittings)

Speaking of which, which kiteboard will you buy??[}:)]
lostinlondon
lostinlondon
VIC
1159 posts
VIC, 1159 posts
9 Feb 2009 11:59am
Given that the worst natural disaster in Aus history has occurred over the weekend (108 and counting, thats twice as many people as the London Tube bombing) I wouldn't be surprised if this whole $1000 each handout thing gets kicked to the kerb.
cRAZY Canuk
cRAZY Canuk
NSW
2528 posts
NSW, 2528 posts
9 Feb 2009 1:56pm
mytchook said...

This may be good for the global economy:

A guy called Ryszard Gold—who probably is an alien villain from the Outer Rim planets and got a 49-point score in our Geek Social Aptitude Test—made the calculation of the most basic Death Star's price with current materials and space transport costs here on Earth.
Quote:
• First, assume that 1/10 of the 17.16 quadrillion cubic meters of the Death Star is something other than empty space and 6/10 of the total volume is pressurized space.
• That will require 1.71 quadrillion cubic meters of steel, about 134 quadrillion tonnes. That's $12.95 quintillion in current 2008 prices, and that's without counting strange alloys and elements.
• Shipping that to space will cost $95 million per tonne: So add $12.79 septillion in transport.
• Now you need to add air, which will require 8.23 quintillion cubic meters of Nitrogen, and 1.65 quintillion cubic meters of oxygen, for a total delivery cost of $2.81 septillions and $212.46 quintillion.
The total: $15,602,022,489,829,821,422,840,226.94.

I will pledge the 94 cents.

And yes, I know that this is a totally ridiculous concept, but to think that someone actually sat down and worked this out is pretty funny.



Some one should tell him there's some steel miners in aus that'll give him a good price on material for his 1/2 scale model.

-

I'll admit that I don't know squat about economics (or how to spell), but I'm not a fan of giving hand-outs of cash, even when I recive them makes me all edgy when I get stuff for free (oh wait I'm just getting back a little of what I've given). I'd rather see tax cuts (yes I know there in the bill) so that people have more to spend over a longer period rather than going out in one hail mary attempt and spending $950 (which I probably wouldn't do, sorry).

Little extra a week that doesn't get taken off the top ouf your income can be more than you think it is and it would be more likely to find it's way into the economy IMO.
au_rick
au_rick
WA
752 posts
WA, 752 posts
9 Feb 2009 12:38pm
BigAirPaul said...

No...
Thank ME for my new kite...
Overtime from working on weekends (when I'd rather be kiting) etc., so that I can buy what I want.
If it happens or not, I know that I won't be getting a share of the handout, so the only person I have to thank for my new equipment is ME !!!
Guess that would be true for a lot of us...
And I probably will enjoy it more !!!
BAP


dam straight !!
shame is we'll be the poor suckers (or something that rhymes with it) when interest rates rise and we gotta pay more taxes to service the overseas debt little Kevvy is gonna get us into. (F#$King w@nker, it's paul keating all over again).



Gorgo
Gorgo
VIC
5127 posts
VIC, 5127 posts
9 Feb 2009 3:07pm
au_rick said...
... it's paul keating all over again).



Paul Keating was actually the treasurer who floated the Australian dollar and freed up the markets to make Australia internationally competitive. It was his work that the Howard government rode on the back of during the last 11 years of economic boom.

Traditionally, Australia tends to vote in Labor governments during times of crisis and they do the stuff to get us through them, then vote in Liberal governments during the recovery phase, specifically WW1 and WW2. Arguably Hawke and Keating led us through the recession in the 80's, though equally they may have led us into the recession.

We could do what they did in the 80's and return to disco and cock-rock and have a hair-spray, glitter and chest-hair led recovery.

BTW I would have though the libs would be in favour of the cash handout. Put the money in the hands of the people and let them decide how to spend it. Isn't it the same as a short term tax cut?
colinwill78
colinwill78
VIC
1395 posts
VIC, 1395 posts
9 Feb 2009 3:10pm
I am seriously considering giving the $950 to red cross for the bush fire appeal.
(or my own appeal after getting robbed on Saturday)
Plus it's still a tax deduction.
And donating blood this week.
jeremy
jeremy
WA
202 posts
WA, 202 posts
9 Feb 2009 10:47pm
Fascinating article Andre.....it helps explain the current melt down. Thanks for the link. As for KR.......he and Wayne Swan are going to burden the next generation with the mother of all deficits to pay back.
sbray
sbray
SA
350 posts
SA, 350 posts
10 Feb 2009 10:31am
colinwill78 said...


(or my own appeal after getting robbed on Saturday)

And donating blood this week.


Geez Col,

Did you break a mirror after stepping on a black cat while walking under a ladder last week

Kite destroyed, body parts removed, robbed, (giving blood two weeks in a row )

Kudos to ya !!! after all of the above to consider that there are definately others worse off that are more deserving of the donation.

Fossil.
echostorm
echostorm
QLD
1245 posts
QLD, 1245 posts
10 Feb 2009 7:37pm
I personally think building a massive city in the middle of the desert has attributed to this crisis quite a bit. 24 per cent of the world's 125,000 construction cranes, are currently operating in Dubai.
Smedg
Smedg
NSW
836 posts
NSW, 836 posts
10 Feb 2009 10:15pm
eco. Dubai is just crazy isn't it. Its impossible to look at any of those 'enviro friendly, sustainable developments' (as if) and not have the division of wealth at the forefront of your thoughts. That really is some crazy **** going on over there.
kitebored
kitebored
NSW
593 posts
NSW, 593 posts
10 Feb 2009 11:31pm
MRGRAY said...

...
If you give it to a charitable cause, it will go to Nigeria .
...


au_rick
au_rick
WA
752 posts
WA, 752 posts
17 Feb 2009 9:00am
latest from a reliable source...


How much will be paid?
•$950 bonus will be paid if you have a taxable income up to and including $80,000
•$650 bonus will be paid if you have a taxable income not exceeding $90,000
•$300 bonus will be paid if you have a taxable income not exceeding $100,000

should be some dollars in there for most of us
loco4olas
loco4olas
NSW
1525 posts
NSW, 1525 posts
17 Feb 2009 12:39pm
au_rick said...

latest from a reliable source...


How much will be paid?
•$950 bonus will be paid if you have a taxable income up to and including $80,000
•$650 bonus will be paid if you have a taxable income not exceeding $90,000
•$300 bonus will be paid if you have a taxable income not exceeding $100,000

should be some dollars in there for most of us


I think those numbers are now amended down by $50.00.
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