x-bow a waste of $

> 10 years ago
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dun-king
dun-king
QLD
66 posts
QLD, 66 posts
24 Aug 2005 2:33am
i was thinking ,although i don't know much about kites,
but it seems to me that technology moves fast with kiting
and this is the first year xbow and the like have been available.
don't you reckon its worth leaving the design team to develope
this kite. i only say this coz next year , the company will be
claiming the 2007 model way out performs this years , and everyone who bought one will be crying into their pints.
i'm sticking with whats known for a while longer.
and if the xbow is a success then maybe lei's will become cheaper.
there is hope
paulio
paulio
QLD
890 posts
QLD, 890 posts
24 Aug 2005 6:29am
Graham Graham Graham

Every year we hope the 'new model' out jumps , out hangs , out turns the previous model. North has got it right every year, all the rest dont seem to understand this concept.Just my opinion(even tho im right).

As for me il do some brekys in bed,some walks along the beach and grovel like buggery so my 'sponsor' buys me a new kite.


Thomo
Thomo
WA
204 posts
WA, 204 posts
24 Aug 2005 6:34am
Heh King

Yes you are quite correct in thinking that every year a new and better design comes out, but if your sitting on the beach waiting for the next years big kite break through and you continue to wait for the next one and the next one,you will be sitting on the beach alot watching everyone else having fun, so if you want a new kite buy one now and get out there!!!

New kites are going to remain priced where they are for now because of the small market here, although the second hand prices have come down a fair bit, I guess you just got to save your pennys if you want the latest
not on board
not on board
210 posts
210 posts
24 Aug 2005 8:02am
There will definately be some room for improvements with the Crossbow.
Like a powerlock and a way to decrease the throw on the chicken. Was out last Sat in some strong winds with 3 guys out on 12m Crossbows. I talked to two of the riders and they said that they really think that a powerlock is needed as there arms were very tired from having to keep the bar back to maintain the power. Also the most experienced rider was pulling off some nice floaty jumps but he said he could not pull off some of his usuall spins as grabs and rotations were causing him to relax the bar too much and losing power. I Think Cabrinha will probably think of a solution to this in the next version. Also, when riding in the big gusts, the riders were able to let the bar out but the chicken loop is so long, you have to really stretch to maintain that position and ride thru the gust.
Still the kite has good range and soft looking jumps.
Andrew
Andrew
WA
148 posts
WA, 148 posts
24 Aug 2005 8:16am
also heard that the cross bow is very slow compared to last years LEI's... near impossible to do a loop.... is this true??
HungLong
HungLong
WA
859 posts
WA, 859 posts
24 Aug 2005 8:56am
Hey Andrew, I've had a go on one...

They loop, but to get it to loop you have to overcome alot of bar pressure...

The biggest turn off I found was the increadible amount of bar pressure you need to over come for sheeting and hold as there is no way of double hooking (fixed trim loop or power lock).

Four things bothered me with the product, 1# the bar is way to cluttered, 2# the bar's that was on the 12m I flew was way too long, 3# the pulleys on the bar (adding to the clutteredness) get rid of them, I could feel more what the pulleys were doing than the kite was ! & 4# the incredible amount of bar pressure !.

The kite, well I think it's got merrits, i'm impressed with its design. The days conditions were not the best so I'm not overly impressed with it's flying side of things...

One of the biggest selling points is the kite's safety aspects. Now every kite brand is producing one of these kite styles even bestkiteboarding (apart from North & Slingshot, correct me if i'm wrong) so it's safe to say this... I think the kite is no safer than a properly setup 5th line LEI combined with learning the correct method for relaunching.

Someone had to go first with this design. Unfortunately/fortunatley depends how you look at it, they clear the path for the rest to improove on the design.

In summary, over come the bar pressure & redesign the bar...

regards browneee
newcastle_justin
newcastle_justin
NSW
149 posts
NSW, 149 posts
24 Aug 2005 11:40am
Picked up my Crossbow 9 about just over a week ago and have had one decent session (20 knots+ consistently, gusting to 30). I had a massive session, around 4 hours in total, with at least two hours on the water without coming in. I weigh 56kg. The bottom line for me was that the bar pressure was fine - it didn't bother me at all. I suppose it comes down to personal preference and how you are used to riding...

In terms of the pulleys, they are a requirement in order to facilitate the turning speed - without them the kite would turn at half the speed.

I do have a complaint about the kite though – I am finding it difficult to jump. I know it is possible, but I am finding it hard to adapt. Will keep practising…

Cheers
Justin
dachopper
dachopper
WA
1806 posts
WA, 1806 posts
24 Aug 2005 10:38am
Justin r u mitch's brother? were you out around squids? ...

Of course the next years model will be better.... all the complaints taken about this years model... is usually what manufacturers fix first for the next year. the bar will probably be smaller.. pullys smaller, powerlock in...

I'm a big fan of progressive bar pressure, and if your haveing troubles jumping, it may be cause you've got 1 hand on the bar, and not fully loaded in the jump? .. wouldn't mind trying the x-bow myself 1 day :)
newcastle_justin
newcastle_justin
NSW
149 posts
NSW, 149 posts
24 Aug 2005 1:07pm
dachopper,

As it happens I am not Mitch's bro. I was actually in Port Douglass all last week on a work conference and happened to have one avo off - it worked out well that it was perfect conditions!

I actually kite by myself the majority of times at unknown (un-kited should I say) locations around Lake Macquarie. But I plan to go out in the southerly forecast for Friday afternoon, so if you are keen to have a go and are free let me know where you go out in a S/SW and I will try to make it... Email me if you want to link up.

Cheers mate, and go the Crossbow I say!
Justin
milehigh
milehigh
WA
81 posts
WA, 81 posts
24 Aug 2005 11:12am
so whats the story on the pulley on the bar? people are complaining about bar pressure and the distance they have to let out the bar along the chicken loop....surely these are both increased by the pulley? please explain!!
carbine
carbine
WA
1450 posts
WA, 1450 posts
24 Aug 2005 11:27am
The bar is just like a pulley bar but with a chicken loop . Just get a fixed harness loop.

All I read is about 'wakestyle' people complaining about bar pressure and how you can't ride unhooked, while alot of these people ride pulley bars. Hypocrites.
HungLong
HungLong
WA
859 posts
WA, 859 posts
24 Aug 2005 11:29am
Hey carbine, I have no prob/complaints with the kite... But the bar is nothing like a pulley bar, nothing at all does'nt even work like one...

regards browneee

p.s. YES I do ride pulleybar also
HungLong
HungLong
WA
859 posts
WA, 859 posts
24 Aug 2005 11:33am
quote:
Originally posted by milehigh
surely these are both increased by the pulley? please explain!!



do you know what adding a pulley into a rope does... basically halves the pressure to pull/shift/move an object... If it's heavy with one pulley on each steering line your either going to complicate it even further with more...

However I have seen one guy out riding at woodies pt with a regular bar... Would be nice if anyone knows him or he could speak up...

Like I said the kites cool, just the bar is not !

regards browneee
carbine
carbine
WA
1450 posts
WA, 1450 posts
24 Aug 2005 11:50am
Nah it is actually a pulley bar. Yeah it doesn't have the middle pulley but the fact that this point is tethered at a fixed length negates the need for this pulley.


Just with the added effect of depower. On a normal bar depowering a kite only changes the effective length of the back lines. On this its a double affect. Length is taken off the back lines and dumped onto the front lines or vice versa. This is different to say having a 2:1 pulley on just the front lines.
HungLong
HungLong
WA
859 posts
WA, 859 posts
24 Aug 2005 12:50pm
Carbine, have a look at the jpg,Crossbow control system!
www.seabreeze.com.au/gallery/gallery.asp?imageid=419 . Then have a close look at the top of the power strap, take a closer look at the way the power lines (front) attach ? I see no pulley at the top !

You need this pulley to make the attributes of a pulley bar work ! This kite I dont think would benefit from a pulley bar as the main benefit from a pulley bar is so the inside tip (standard LEI) when turning does not flare and spill the airflow and resulting in slowing the kite down... The cross bow doesn't seem to do this, it seems to slide a little in the turns...

a quote from cab.

"Advanced Depower System

One of the features responsible for the Crossbow’s incredible depowering capabilities is it’s 2-1 pulley system on the rear lines. This allows the rider to achieve twice the depower for the same amount of distance the bar travels as a normal control system. The 2-1 purchase also enhances turning by exaggerating the differences in line lengths when the bar is turned."

Mentions nothing about the front lines ?

regards browneee

laurie
laurie
NSW
3904 posts
NSW, 3904 posts
24 Aug 2005 3:22pm
How does a wakeboarder deal with the excessive bar pressure from a V8 ski boat?
dachopper
dachopper
WA
1806 posts
WA, 1806 posts
24 Aug 2005 1:22pm
but.. don't forget the main selling point of the crossbow is it's massive wind range... the only way to cover a massive range is to change the virtual angle of attack, or the usefull surface area of the kite... if you look at the crossbow it does both, and if you take the pullys off the back lines, you will need arms twice as long to achive the same depower.. so for my money... if i weren't gonna use the crossbows pulley bar.. then whats the point in buying one cause you'll loose half your depower.. and then youll be the same as any other LEI
puppetonastring
puppetonastring
WA
3619 posts
WA, 3619 posts
24 Aug 2005 1:54pm
I think you are both (Im talking brownee & carbine earlier - chopper jumped in there) partly correct ... heres how I see it.

The pulleys on each side back to fixed central point on the front lines does just as cabrinah/brownee says in doubling the distance of depower/powerup for any given length of bar travel - pretty basic really & also explains the reports of harder work for any length of bar movement.
But the cabrinah 2/1 bar must also have some of the pulley bar effect. When turning the Xbow you are effectively pulling twice as much toward your inside turning edge & releasing twice as much on your outside turning edge for any given tilt of the bar. The double pulley set-up may not be the equivalent of a single pulley bar but the same principle is being applied.
Another point I havent heard anyone mention or talk about is the effect of having the fixed central point off the pulleys at the top of the trim strap. This adds in another new control variation from the standard line 4 line set-up. Trimming out with 2 pulleys reduces backline length as well as extending the front line length. Again double the variation in the AofA for any given distance the trim strap is adjusted.
I would have thought that all standard 4 line LEIs would already have been using the maximum workable AofA variation with existing trim strap set-ups Or is it that a flatter kite provides a greater workable AofA range.
I dunno - getting way too technical for my little brain
HungLong
HungLong
WA
859 posts
WA, 859 posts
24 Aug 2005 3:26pm
quote:
Originally posted by laurie

How does a wakeboarder deal with the excessive bar pressure from a V8 ski boat?




dig deep, bury the rail and yank the boats ass side ways !

regards browneee
shooterMcgavin
shooterMcgavin
WA
90 posts
WA, 90 posts
24 Aug 2005 3:54pm
yeah those cross bows don't look that great I thought they where going to change the world.
poor relative
poor relative
WA
9106 posts
WA, 9106 posts
24 Aug 2005 4:00pm
yeah your all right totally crap these kites.

i bought one bloody idiot i am.......i only really got it cause there was two stickers and a nice pump free and the chick in the shop looked cute.

i mean this thing bloody absorbs gusts, is user friendly, depowers amazing, great safety, gets me fat arse up and riding in a huge range, pivots on a twenty cent piece, boosts big (when you've dialled it) is as stable as anything ever and is impossible to stall.And due to the heavy bar pressure in light winds i am now getting big muscles.......fkn thing hate it.

oh and my other complaint is the bloody thing is actually giving me the confidence to get better at this kn sport and try some new groovy moves.

I'm gonna burn the ****er.
wish i'd bought a hell fish instead.
CAUTION
CAUTION
WA
1097 posts
WA, 1097 posts
24 Aug 2005 4:13pm
AHH THE HYPE
SOUNDS ALL TOO FAMILIAR...
BIG MUSCLES ARE GOOD, JUST WATCH THOSE ELBOWS AND POO STANCE...
dachopper
dachopper
WA
1806 posts
WA, 1806 posts
24 Aug 2005 4:31pm
puppet, dont forget, there will come a point where any more trim will cause you to loose steering ( back lines too slack and front too tight) or the reverse, stall the kite...
There's probably no center pully because it's not needed... from how i've seen them fly, the depower allows them to go from fully powered to fully unpowered allready.... you'd have to have a shape changing kite to get any benifit out of more back line movement... or a reallly really really low aspect ratio .
milehigh
milehigh
WA
81 posts
WA, 81 posts
24 Aug 2005 4:41pm
got my head around the pulleys now...what an idiot hehehe(dont know what i was thinking). still think its alittle complicated but everyone who has one likes them ... cant wait to have a go(will pinch seans when he's not looking)



big muscles eh paul? should come in handy for lifting all those guiness cans....think i might get an xbow yet!
azza
azza
1338 posts
1338 posts
24 Aug 2005 5:02pm
For those people that aren't happy about the Cab' bar, but like the idea of the kite in general, check out the Takoon Nova. (Google it if you have to.)

The Takoon Nova is the natural progression of the Crossbow, the next generation if you will, it uses what must be the barest bar since two line kites! It achieves this by using a modified bridle and, what looks like, changed CoP (Centre of Pressure).

Bruno L, the owner of Takoon, is the designer of the Nova and the Crossbow... there wouldn't be any LEI's if it weren't for this man.
the duke of dork
the duke of dork
WA
175 posts
WA, 175 posts
24 Aug 2005 5:25pm
g'day graham, nice one- i think you opened a can of worms!! we have had some great winds the last few days,you gotta come back! as for the kites, i heard "ADVANCE" are the way to go......... good winds to you
HungLong
HungLong
WA
859 posts
WA, 859 posts
24 Aug 2005 6:03pm
quote:
Originally posted by azza

For those people that aren't happy about the Cab' bar, but like the idea of the kite in general, check out the Takoon Nova. (Google it if you have to.)

The Takoon Nova is the natural progression of the Crossbow, the next generation if you will, it uses what must be the barest bar since two line kites! It achieves this by using a modified bridle and, what looks like, changed CoP (Centre of Pressure).

Bruno L, the owner of Takoon, is the designer of the Nova and the Crossbow... there wouldn't be any LEI's if it weren't for this man.



Thats more like it...

PR... I'm not slagging the kite at all. As I said above everyone is jumping on board with the design. I thinks it's got merrit, just dont like the bar setup thats all and the implied similarity between a true pulley bar which the x-bow bar is not...

regards browneee
shooterMcgavin
shooterMcgavin
WA
90 posts
WA, 90 posts
24 Aug 2005 6:34pm
nah I don't know why every one is so hyped up about these cross bows they actualy look like crap to me ive done it know
gruezi
gruezi
WA
3464 posts
WA, 3464 posts
24 Aug 2005 6:56pm
What a crack up.

I've probably spent more time on this kite than anyone in the country, and y'all have so much insight and so much to say.

Y'all need some wind I think.



waveslave
waveslave
WA
4263 posts
WA, 4263 posts
24 Aug 2005 7:08pm
Gruezi,

You are the X-bow guru.

Pray tell,

What is the true meaning of Kite?

regards
'slave
carbine
carbine
WA
1450 posts
WA, 1450 posts
24 Aug 2005 10:01pm
I don't know, it looked pretty good today when we were all standing on the beach watching.

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