3 pce

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pirrad
pirrad
SA
850 posts
SA, 850 posts
12 Aug 2009 1:36pm
found this at the dump a while back and had use for several parts.decided to put the rest to use.

thinking about making it a 3 piece,rear axle, front end,main frame.one main aim is to keep pilot and sail as close to ground as possible.the following mock-up specks are ,rear axle 1200 [1300 ish wheel centres]with front wheel where it is the length is 1450 wheel centres,laying down in sailing position with legs straight for vision over knees the steer pegs would come of at front wheel axle.i could push the front wheel 250 mm forward and mount steer pegs from rear of forks..??in the sailing position my arm pits are level with front of rear axle..??should i try and get my body weight back a little further??thinking i would mount rear boom pulleys from top of head rest frame,and have a boom height of around 500mm[boom 1400 long from mast to top head rest frame]



kiwi307
kiwi307
488 posts
488 posts
12 Aug 2009 2:45pm
I reckon this rates as a "worth a try' love the recycle1
My rule of thumb is for your butt to be either over the axle or at most 100mm in front, it's worked for me with well over 100 yachts.
Don't forget the critical bit of the steering, set up as you show it will be truly awful. The axis of the steering shaft MUST line up to be on the tyre contact patch. There are no options on this one, I have tried and failed with spectacular results.
j murray
j murray
SA
947 posts
SA, 947 posts
12 Aug 2009 6:10pm
Pirrad, you done good at your dump......eeeehhhhwwwwaaa.... what' s the longitude and latitude
No doubt your taking fitness to a new level. How's the dog on the grinder....how, he go???? Good aussie working dog. Check out the working dog story's book, an abc production that the post office is now selling for around $19.something.
pirrad
pirrad
SA
850 posts
SA, 850 posts
12 Aug 2009 8:46pm
the grinders nearly buggered pluged it in switched it on and hoped the dog would pi$$ on it.didnt work today,try again tommorow.
cisco
cisco
QLD
12365 posts
QLD, 12365 posts
13 Aug 2009 1:30pm
I guess you couldn't help yourself pirrad when you saw that lot at the dump. On seeing that I think any home hobbiest's first thought would be, "I can make something out of that, don't know what it is yet but I will think of something. Better grab it."

Unfortunately they have put up a "No scavenging" sign at the steel section of our local dump. Insurance issues again.

Looks like it will be a great build mate. Hope you keep going and posting pics.
pirrad
pirrad
SA
850 posts
SA, 850 posts
13 Aug 2009 3:05pm
Reworked the forks,is that more like it kiwi,the pivot point lining up with the wheel-ground contact area ? Butt is now positioned over axle where board is and the mast base has been moved back to maintain 1400mm boom length.Not sure about steering-front wheel position yet.in pic my feet are about top head stem. Mast rake pictured is 10 degrees.It looks a little to me as though the CR may be to far forward or the CE to far back,plan on using 4-5 mtr sail.

landyacht
landyacht
WA
5921 posts
WA, 5921 posts
13 Aug 2009 4:17pm
I would be thinking version 1 with V2 steering, mast at 6 degrees with a seat that allows alot of body movement fore and aft. with these little micros myexperience has been to have the weight Waaaay back at speed , and waaay forward to turn and punch upwind. this small and light the yacht will have a tendency to "chicken wing", (lift the front wheel and try to flip backwards)
sn
sn
WA
2775 posts
sn sn
WA, 2775 posts
13 Aug 2009 4:41pm
all I can say is-

THAT SHED ISNT MESSY ENOUGH!!!!!!!!!



and the idea of recycling old fittness equipment sounds good- lord knows there is a lot of it being thrown out onto the verge!
pirrad
pirrad
SA
850 posts
SA, 850 posts
16 Aug 2009 5:02pm
Reworked forks again,and got axles done


Ive shifted my body weight forward again,but not as much as first mock up,wheel centres are 1300 rear axle,1500 length and could mount foot pegs off of forks as pictured. What would be the advantages of stretching the length out a bit more and using a linkage for steering.


pirrad
pirrad
SA
850 posts
SA, 850 posts
16 Aug 2009 6:05pm
By the way,3pce has now turned into 5pce.Next is to connect the rear axles[3pce] the centre joining pce will be the mount for the back rest.I will be using trampoline connection shrunken ends slid into the axles and bolted using existing bolt hole.Before i go any further i want to now what angle to set the rear wheels at ?As pictured the are at 12 degrees.

hills
hills
SA
1622 posts
SA, 1622 posts
16 Aug 2009 7:40pm
I think Landyacht once said on here that 10 degrees is about as much as you'd want to go. I'll see if I can find his post. (that or just wait for him to correct me ;) )
landyacht
landyacht
WA
5921 posts
WA, 5921 posts
16 Aug 2009 6:46pm
5degrees is nice, 10 degrees for extreeeeeme racing , but no good in a light wind,
Given the current dimensions of your yacht , why not expand ever so slightly out to the LLM specs.
you would get a really nice platform for your tall sails youve been making. and you will then have a range of yachts to compare. We would value the insights you get from trialing the 2 styles together( mini vs micro).
I suspect that you would notice a significant improvement by going to the LLM specs
pirrad
pirrad
SA
850 posts
SA, 850 posts
16 Aug 2009 9:19pm
My loft.3 sail options awaiting the cut,just updated my sail quiver and these 3 well worn preloved sail are destined to extended life on a land yacht.Handy storage area,to there left hand full battens to there right old mast bits,bent and damaged booms ,windsurf board awaiting mods,just out of view selection of dirt boards,and that's only half of it.LLM specks[1640 centres x1510 overall width] ,its doable,still set up in shed so just stretched it out and had a look.Does this mean it could be raced?

Wont get much done for a while ,back to Roxby tomorrow,4 nights,off to the beach next weekend.
Gizmo
Gizmo
SA
2865 posts
SA, 2865 posts
16 Aug 2009 9:28pm
Build it the same size as a LLMini (which has become the standard size for mini yachts these days) and I will give you a race next summer time at Lake Bumbunga, Lochiel
pirrad
pirrad
SA
850 posts
SA, 850 posts
16 Aug 2009 9:36pm
Eat my salt spr.. YOUR ON. Might even make a trip to Port Gawler.I've got several phone no's filed away re access to the lake ,keep you posted on that one.
Clemco
Clemco
430 posts
430 posts
17 Aug 2009 6:50pm
Posted 16/08/2009, 4:35 pm
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
QUOTE
By the way,3pce has now turned into 5pce.Next is to connect the rear axles[3pce] the centre joining pce will be the mount for the back rest.I will be using trampoline connection shrunken ends slid into the axles and bolted using existing bolt hole.Before i go any further i want to now what angle to set the rear wheels at ?As pictured the are at 12 degrees.

I have an idea. Why not connect the two rear axils with a fat piece of Nolathane rod. It would efectively give you independent rear suspension. I would set the wheels at no more than 5 degrees with this setup. Not sure how it would handle, but could be interesting. Would load some torque in those side tubes.
What size is that tube?

pirrad
pirrad
SA
850 posts
SA, 850 posts
17 Aug 2009 10:49pm
rear axle 50mm ,side tubes 35mm ,havnt measured wall thickness but id say at least 1mm[same as trampoline frame]
landyacht
landyacht
WA
5921 posts
WA, 5921 posts
18 Aug 2009 9:35pm
you need to be careful not to make the rear too "soft" with rubberized bit or independant suspension. too soft and it will kill the boat.
I would suggest 5 degrees
pirrad
pirrad
SA
850 posts
SA, 850 posts
19 Aug 2009 12:43am
Rear wheels 5 deg, mast rake 6 deg, and what a find i had today ,didnt realise i was entitled to BHPB employee discount at blackwoods,a new toy for $44.00,bargain. http://www2.blackwoods.com.au/infoBANKproduct.aspx?SG=2000165&S=31&G=2004743&P=2028310.Cant get the shack at the beach this weekend so back to the build it will be,LLM specs are now the go[1510 max overall width.1640 max length wheel centres]Solid rear axle as planned[drop axle though because as i bring the wheels up to 5 degrees the frame is getting higher than i would like].Steering still in the think tank but plenty to do in the mean time.Paul, your yacht PROMO is giving me inspiration for my stearing,are the foot controls adjustable on her for different height pilots?
landyacht
landyacht
WA
5921 posts
WA, 5921 posts
19 Aug 2009 9:00pm
the steering linkage possibilities start to reduce with a mini as you lose the distance to play with , if you are going to lay down to sail.
the Promo front end would work fine , but your feet are only going to be 250-300m behind the front wheel, and that means that the linkage has to bend and twist to much. That is why most of the LLM's have ended up with a direct attachment to the front wheel .
in a positive way it means that you have a really fine control of the steering , whichis exactly what you need in a yacht this small.
especially if you want to Race
I try to build 250-300mm of steering adustment into foot steering, which ive found allows for most body sizes and shapes.
I did build a kids steering mod to fit the LLMwhich moved the pedals back another 300mm and that fits most kids
pirrad
pirrad
SA
850 posts
SA, 850 posts
22 Aug 2009 11:30pm
BUGGER! Having download problems ,got the rear end all welded up and cant post any progress pics.
pirrad
pirrad
SA
850 posts
SA, 850 posts
23 Aug 2009 10:25am
Rear end all welded, had it all chocked and clamped with 60mm ground clearance,Ive lost 10mm somewhere but the axle may be a bit to soft,could have to weld in another gusset on the inside of the flats to stiffen it up a bit more.

Today hope to get mast base welded into position and start the front end graft.


pirrad
pirrad
SA
850 posts
SA, 850 posts
23 Aug 2009 5:59pm
Mast base welded and templates cut for front end,2 bolts through mast base ,drill holes in side pieces to weld to front tube and box in as mouch as i can.Total weight without sail-rig should come in at under 30kg.


landyacht
landyacht
WA
5921 posts
WA, 5921 posts
23 Aug 2009 6:32pm
Looking very interesting, with great potential, the test will be in how much torque the frame will take
pirrad
pirrad
SA
850 posts
SA, 850 posts
25 Aug 2009 8:49am
Front end attached,decided to use a third bolt through the back of the mast tapped into a end plate on front tube,only 50 mm ground clearance could be a bit of a worry.Steering was to be next but i got side tracked and got the seat out the way.Also did a mock up with sail[pic in gallery]new mast tip req -100mm and suitable boom and it will do for a test.

pirrad
pirrad
SA
850 posts
SA, 850 posts
25 Aug 2009 9:23am
The seat.Been thinking about a name during the build,was thinking 'DUMPSTER' the seat is giving me some other ideas 'SHOVEL' 'SLIPPERYLILSUCKER' 'SUICIDE'

Only riveted on at moment ,will be screwed on after paint.
pirrad
pirrad
SA
850 posts
SA, 850 posts
25 Aug 2009 1:00pm
Not happy with version 1,it would prob be alright with another knuckle set up at rear the same as the front,had the front one already made and cant be bothered making another.Went out in search of something like they use as a tendon in the tendon style windsurf mast bases,think it would work ok but came home with a hand full or worn go cart bits instead. This should work ok.

The rear is a little to agricultural,two half chain links.
pirrad
pirrad
SA
850 posts
SA, 850 posts
25 Aug 2009 3:28pm
Much happier,but improvements to follow[no adjustment]think i will weld a piece of 20-25x 5mm flat along tube and drill/tap[where nuts sitting] at 100mm intervals,make new joining arm 200mm longer with cutouts to suit .

That's it for this break,tidy my shed [ITS A PIG STY]Ready for a fresh start next block,bit to finish off at head rest...steering mod....pulley link on rear of mast[unless i use s/s saddle?]....new boom......shorter mast tip ext for sail......and then a test run
pirrad
pirrad
SA
850 posts
SA, 850 posts
25 Aug 2009 6:13pm
3 pce or 5?The weakest link as i see is the rear axle,think the shear affect on the bolts will stretch holes and let it all sag in the middle,the quickest fix would be to weld it up as one....Apart from rear wheels,200mm mast base and some 50 mm flat bar i bought a while back its all been done with recycled materials.Checked some measurements to, larger pipe 51mm OD 1.6MM wall,smaller 38mm OD 2MM wall. edit;frame 28.1KG

landyacht
landyacht
WA
5921 posts
WA, 5921 posts
25 Aug 2009 9:08pm
from the mockup I suspect you will find that the mast is too fr back.
this will make the rear slide out as you sail along,giving a scalloping effect to your track, but try it out and report back. I do like the way it all comes together
your body weight on the rear of the seat should counteract the sheeting to negate the shearing on those 4 bolts
kiwi307
kiwi307
488 posts
488 posts
26 Aug 2009 5:54am
You could make a telescopic steering link, so that you can make the adjustment to suit your foot pedal position, ie one tube inside the other.
A question, I like the way the balljoints are trapped so in worst case failure they still function, but is there sufficient movement like this?
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