Forums > Land Yacht Sailing Construction

Building a Mini Magic

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Created by Clemco > 9 months ago, 13 May 2009
Clemco
424 posts
13 May 2009 11:15AM
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Landyacht; I am very impressed by your Mini Magic trolly design. I dont think I could make much improvement on that appart from larger diameter wheels. Are you happy to let us homebuilders copy your design? I would like to build one but with 20" BMX rear and 16" BMX front wheel. To save me a lot of trial and error, what size SHS did you use for the main frame members. Also, how is it running? I suspect you are streets ahead of the other Minis and Blokarts.

landyacht
WA, 5758 posts
13 May 2009 9:01PM
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Before I start , the mini magic known as NAPPY RUSH is not, has not been and never will be a TROLLY!!!!!!!!!'
moving on I assume the steel your refering to is the square galv.
the outer size is 35x35, the inner is 30 x30, 2mm wall youll need a bit of 25x25 inside that at the joints if you plan on doing any serious racing, or running over blokarts.Performance wise , it will only keep up with a class 5 at this stage, maybe the bigger rear wheels will be the breakthrough
that Y angle is 45degrees whichjust makes things easier to cut and measure. I have no toe in or out built in.when building I had to shut one of the shed doors as the wind would blow the bare chassis out the other door
This is not a design for a beginner or a BIG lad as if you hit something it will bend those rear axles. . Ive since sold the yacht, as I felt the mast step was a bit too far back, resulting in a degree of uncontrolability when sailing downwind on Lake walyungups gravelly surface. next version will hopefully correct that.
Please be true to the mini specs and dont be temped to go longer or wider, you'll be glad you didnt, as they are little crackers to sail

cisco
QLD, 10087 posts
14 May 2009 12:31AM
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With a small reconfigureation of the joiner/tilt plates for the rear frame (ie the tilt adjustment holes being on the lower side) the yacht can become a folding yacht with the rear seat frame folding forward over the main frame. Convenient for transporting it.

Just a thought. Cheers Cisco

Clemco
424 posts
14 May 2009 6:28AM
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Thanks for that info Landyacht. It was a bit difficult to guess the steel sizes looking at the pictures. Sorry about the "trolly" reference, that's what we call the frame part over here. What was the total weight ot the yacht fully rigged? Are you building another one?

Hiko
1142 posts
14 May 2009 7:03AM
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You dont have to worry about him being large Landyacht
last time I saw him out he had half the yacht filled with sand to hold him down

kiwi307
488 posts
14 May 2009 7:09AM
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Hi, I have done a search looking for mini magic, with the only result being this topic, HELP!!!
As regards Clem and weight, it's not only the yacht will blow out the garage door, when he stands sideways he gets lost behind power poles! Sorry Clem,!
The trolly label is a Clemco original!

Gizmo
SA, 2815 posts
14 May 2009 10:14AM
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Here is the thread for "Nappy Rush"
www.seabreeze.com.au/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=43555

splitpin
104 posts
14 May 2009 9:07AM
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Gizmo said...

Here is the thread for "Nappy Rush"
www.seabreeze.com.au/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=43555

no mention of measurements ?

kiwi307
488 posts
14 May 2009 9:58AM
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Hi Gizmo, thanks for posting that.
Paul now I know I didn't build it but the best 10 smiler yet was the Clog which I brought back to NZ, did you ever get to sail it when you were over here post 90?
Typical John Glenn yacht, very light on the front, rubber band leading link front end, inertia mass damper on the front to kill float, You ccould throw this Class 4 into a 360 at terminal velocity and carry on at almost undiminished speed. I wonder where it is now, might have to ask around.
Now the inspiration has started, I might have to do a mini like the Glenn "Flying shovel"!
Am I allowed? Little wing mast, skinny wheels, etc,,, hmmmmmmm

Clemco
424 posts
14 May 2009 11:55AM
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30x30 SHS only comes in 1.6 wall thickness according to my latest Steel & Tube handbook. Would this size fit neatly between a 25x25 and a 35x35x2.0 ??? Does on paper.
By the way I may be small, but can be very fast! I have been building and sailing landyachts for nearly 20yrs.

kiwi307
488 posts
14 May 2009 2:22PM
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Clem, it may pay to check what is ACTUALLY AVAILABLE as compared to what's in their book. They include all available dies, even if they have not run any for the last few years.
The issue wont be the wall thickness in itself, more the corner radii, the only way to know, will be to go to the steel supplier and physically check. And don't assume that because the version of any tube overseas fits, that NZ tube will. They may be using different dies when they make it at Glenbrook mills.

Clemco
424 posts
14 May 2009 2:33PM
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I realised that, yes you are right. Steel size does vary depending on where it has come from. I might stick to tube anyway. A Y frame "TROLLY" with big wheels will need to have some camber and tracking adjustment built in like our OTTs.

Hiko
1142 posts
14 May 2009 2:39PM
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Yes I will go along with that
I have some 35x35x2 some 30x30 x1.6 and some 25x25x2
In theory there should be 1mm clearance between the 30mm and the 35mm
but they wont fit not even close and the clearance between the two smaller sizes is huge more than the 2mm would suggest
Finding the right sizes without buying 8 metre lengths is not easy I have lost count of the engineering places I have been looking
Even with buying 8 metre lengths its probably not easy

Clemco
424 posts
14 May 2009 7:07PM
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Question about the Mini Nappy Rush Y yacht. It is a great design. I love it!
But "Mini Magic" sounds much better don't you think?
My question for the designer and the the test pilots who have sailed it.
Was that backrest strong enough to support the rear sheeting or were you compensating with your body weight to hold it down? I could imagine getting hit by a gust and the sail getting fuller as you got lifted with the seat. That would be scary. Does that backrest need to be any stronger? or was it ok?

landyacht
WA, 5758 posts
14 May 2009 8:04PM
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yes you will have to shop around for your steel sizes. here in oz there are 2 suppliers, One steel and bluescope. their products are very similar but frequently dont fit one another. I shop at bluescope as they have the stuff in stock more often.
the rear frame is 25mm od electrical conduit, ( good product for stength and telescopicity(?) the bigger sizes would be suitable for axles. MIke Day flogged lots of kiwis in 1986 with this stuff. the lower support bar is solid 10mm . When bolted up it just doesnt move. the white material is polyethylene bulky bags,2 layers, sewn at home. under your bottom is a layer of industrial plastic from a 1000l bulk container. it is sewn in between the 2 layers.
The plastic was added after the first sail when I managed to put some streaks in the seat( hence nappy rush) running through a drain.
the MINI Magic tag is courtesy of Hills
the reason for lack of measurements is that all the essential numbers are "mini explorer". If you are building a similar chassis it needs to be custom made for your body dimensions, and is not a beginners project




Clemco
424 posts
16 May 2009 9:54AM
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I've found all these bits for my new mini. Most of them are left over from the first class five I built 20yrs ago. I will post my plan up soon as I work out the steel sizes. I will do most of it in tube appart from the backrest. Landyachts Nappy seat looks to be the best idea.

Gizmo
SA, 2815 posts
16 May 2009 11:36AM
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all you need now is a ball of string and a couple of rolls of duct tape and it would be sailing in a few hours....

aus230
WA, 1604 posts
16 May 2009 10:25AM
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dam, maybe I will have to think about building one of these things myself, last thing I need is another project. But the room for expereminting is endless, wings ,wheels, shape ect.
Cheers
AUS230

Kemosabi
69 posts
16 May 2009 2:08PM
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Paul's "Nappy" design is pretty ingenious... Should be an interesting build.

Looks like you got a nifty seat there too.

landyacht
WA, 5758 posts
17 May 2009 8:15PM
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Dang, I didnt realize you blokes had some of THOSE wheels left over,
I will have to get back into the shed as soon as the 5 and TP1's mini are done
Please stick to the dimensions, please!
with that chair you could fit a little chilli bun along one side

Hiko
1142 posts
18 May 2009 5:33AM
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Dont you mean an eeeeesky?

kiwi307
488 posts
18 May 2009 6:22AM
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Hiko said...

Dont you mean an eeeeesky?


Nah, Paul reckons it will be cold and wet on Ohope so Clem will get a cold butt, but he's too polite, so he calls it "chilly bun" like the yanks!

Paul, you say "Please stick to the dimensios, please". What frigging dimensions, there aren't any!
Or are you referring to the overall unwritten "mini dimensions".
I can see where Clem is going with this, he will be trying to make the quickest mini and then the fun will have gone. Sorry Clem, not getting at you at all.
This is why I asked about some "rules".
Personally I think there should be a wheel restriction, and some limiting on the rig type,, hence my little comment about a wing, which nobody has reacted to!

Clemco
424 posts
18 May 2009 6:39AM
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The chair is just to help me work out the seating position. The biger wheels will help me get up to speed from a stationry start (wheelchair style) because of that dumb Aussy start rule.

Gizmo
SA, 2815 posts
18 May 2009 12:14PM
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kiwi307 said...
This is why I asked about some "rules".
Personally I think there should be a wheel restriction, and some limiting on the rig type,, hence my little comment about a wing, which nobody has reacted to!


These are exactly the comments that created the class6 rules over 25 years ago...

With class6 the wheels can vary in size, so if you go for large dia. wheels, you have to deal with a shorter wheel base and less stability but greater speed. Smaller wheels give a longer wheel base with greater stability but less speed.

2. Max length of 2.25m (to the outside of the wheels) excluding the seat
This is to level out some of the yachts, as many different wheels have been tried from small sack truck size to 20” BMX bike wheels.

6. Round section mast only, Of any material

7. NO sail fairings in or on the sail


lachlan3556
VIC, 1037 posts
18 May 2009 1:40PM
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kiwi307 said...
...
Paul, you say "Please stick to the dimensios, please". What frigging dimensions, there aren't any!
Or are you referring to the overall unwritten "mini dimensions".
...


The dimensions are in the mini explorer plans. I downloaded and printed them off, and apart from a couple of 'odd' figures they are all there as far as I can see. I built my mini frame from these dimesions anyway

Also, the dimensions you asked Paul to confirm were "1640mm wheelbase and 1510mm width" (Same as a blokart). Im assuming these figures are axle-to-axle type measurements.

Goodluck with the build Clemco!

kiwi307
488 posts
18 May 2009 2:03PM
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Gizmo said...

kiwi307 said...
This is why I asked about some "rules".
Personally I think there should be a wheel restriction, and some limiting on the rig type,, hence my little comment about a wing, which nobody has reacted to!


These are exactly the comments that created the class6 rules over 25 years ago...

With class6 the wheels can vary in size, so if you go for large dia. wheels, you have to deal with a shorter wheel base and less stability but greater speed. Smaller wheels give a longer wheel base with greater stability but less speed.

2. Max length of 2.25m (to the outside of the wheels) excluding the seat
This is to level out some of the yachts, as many different wheels have been tried from small sack truck size to 20” BMX bike wheels.

6. Round section mast only, Of any material

7. NO sail fairings in or on the sail





Yes I see where this comes from, but are the class 6 rules being used?

kiwi307
488 posts
18 May 2009 2:11PM
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lachlan3556 said...

kiwi307 said...
...
Paul, you say "Please stick to the dimensios, please". What frigging dimensions, there aren't any!
Or are you referring to the overall unwritten "mini dimensions".
...


The dimensions are in the mini explorer plans. I downloaded and printed them off, and apart from a couple of 'odd' figures they are all there as far as I can see. I built my mini frame from these dimesions anyway

Also, the dimensions you asked Paul to confirm were "1640mm wheelbase and 1510mm width" (Same as a blokart). Im assuming these figures are axle-to-axle type measurements.

Goodluck with the build Clemco!


Thanks for this BUT I have used the "search" facility, as well as the link which is provided above. Now I know I may be stupid, but I can't find any dimensions, and the search facility does not give any plans which you refer to. If you can provide a better link I would be very grateful.
I assume the same as you, ie wheelbase = axle line to axle line, but further on you will see reference to rules "outside of wheel" type in the Australian Class 6 rules. Incidentally these differ to NZ class 6.

Gizmo
SA, 2815 posts
18 May 2009 5:02PM
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kiwi307 said...

Yes I see where this comes from, but are the class 6 rules being used?


There has been some mention of changes which seemed to have occured under the cover of darkness by a group that doesn't want to be open and transparent.
My personal thought is untill there has been proper and true transparency, any existing rules MUST STILL APPLY and not changed by "chinese wispers" and then passed on by word of mouth.

I was unaware that NZ had class6 rules... how do these compare to Aus class6 rules?

Lake Lefroy Mini specs thread..
www.seabreeze.com.au/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=39791

kiwi307
488 posts
18 May 2009 5:15PM
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Gizmo said...

kiwi307 said...

Yes I see where this comes from, but are the class 6 rules being used?


There has been some mention of changes which seemed to have occured under the cover of darkness by a group that doesn't want to be open and transparent.
My personal thought is untill there has been proper and true transparency, any existing rules MUST STILL APPLY and not changed by "chinese wispers" and then passed on by word of mouth.

I was unaware that NZ had class6 rules... how do these compare to Aus class6 rules?

Lake Lefroy Mini specs thread..
www.seabreeze.com.au/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=39791


Now, not to deal with all the above, for obvious reasons.
NZ class 6 was put in place in 1984ish (and nothing ever happened except for a year 13 school project, about 20 or 30 built). My memory is hazy, but;
45 sq feet
1.8 metres wide.
Pocket luff sail, no more than 120mm laid flat (same as class 5)
Max wheel size (I think) 400 by 8.
Seat belt when underway.
I don't remember a length being included, designers choice?
This could erroneous, it's a long time ago. The sail area and width I am relatively confident, the others were discussed. At the time there was a commercial yacht called the Boomerang which the rule were framed around. This is DEFINITELY NOT TO BE USED AS THE RULES, and I suspect that they have been dropped from the NZLYA rule book, if such a thing still exists.

landyacht
WA, 5758 posts
18 May 2009 8:23PM
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As I keep saying, the lefroy mini specs are a length and width. We want to see just what is possible. If they turn into little wings that we get into via a hatch then so be it. early on we considered a sail size restriction, but then BLokart came out with a whopping 5.5m and then HYPERcarbon masts...................
So dont be shy with your experiments, If they havent been done, its because I havent had time to do them.
Please stop refering to it as a class 6 The reference in the specs we set said to take into account the ALSA cl 6 specs IF you intend to race in that class. those rules have changed 3 times since the lefroy mini specs were set, so we are not even trying to fit in.
In the end the very size of these little yacht means they are generally cheap and easy to build, we encourage recycling and the use of alternative materials, like deck chairs gravel bags, and wheeliie bin molds
I also encourage builders to make their yachts pack down as small and conveniently as possible , so that traveling without the assistance of a seacontainer becomes possible again.
so get out there and have fun again

aus230
WA, 1604 posts
18 May 2009 9:40PM
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I am glad you cleared that up paul, I think people were getting things a little mixed up. If they want to race in class 6 (whatever the end specs are) build the yacht to accomodate the rules. If they want to try new ideas build to LL minni.
Starting to get to many chiefs on here.
Cheers
AUS230



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"Building a Mini Magic" started by Clemco