Diablo Update-Mast, Sail and Rig.

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Kody
Kody
QLD
190 posts
QLD, 190 posts
1 Jun 2009 11:29pm
Hi paul, can you please explain exactly what you mean by "Glass tapping over wood". My own expertise includes a lot of glass work, eg, building a mould and a hull, covering wood with glass and lots of various repairs. I have also used carbon fiber to reinforce spars for sailplanes, did you see one of my sailplanes when you were here?
Appling glass over wood is very easy if the glass is shaped correctly and it adds lots of strength. If you want extra strength you can also use "S" glass, kevlar or carbon. kevlar is easy to obtain if you want some but it comes in smallish pieces. You can get it for nix from any wrecker by asking for used air bags as they are made from kevlar.

Kody
kiwi307
kiwi307
488 posts
488 posts
2 Jun 2009 4:00am
I think there is some science, and a fair bit of art in this!
Clem has given the method which I use (and you will find this in Camerons queries), this to me does take some account of the roach. Glad to see you are still using what I suggested to you all those years back Clem!
The CLR ( centre of lateral resistance) has fascinated me for years. I too had assumed it to be just a bit forward of the rear axle. That is what the very old "Landsailing RC Models to the Big ones" book reckoned. When Bill Finch came over in 82 he persuaded me to check this out by dragging yachts sideways (also mentioned in the Cameron queries) on pea gravel or wet grass. Let's just say there is a lot to be learned here. Weight distribution, tyre pressures, wheel sizes all affect this. Sure it's only what you get at "no speed" but it's possibly better than an assumption that it will be 2" forward of the axle. Also explains a bit about where you put your weight while sailing upwind/downwind to enhance performance?
landyacht
landyacht
WA
5921 posts
WA, 5921 posts
2 Jun 2009 3:01pm
Kody said...

Hi paul, can you please explain exactly what you mean by "Glass tapping over wood". My own expertise includes a lot of glass work, eg, building a mould and a hull, covering wood with glass and lots of various repairs. I have also used carbon fiber to reinforce spars for sailplanes, did you see one of my sailplanes when you were here?
Appling glass over wood is very easy if the glass is shaped correctly and it adds lots of strength. If you want extra strength you can also use "S" glass, kevlar or carbon. kevlar is easy to obtain if you want some but it comes in smallish pieces. You can get it for nix from any wrecker by asking for used air bags as they are made from kevlar.

Kody

I was refering to making a simple glued and tacked seat then glassing the joints with glass tape or simply chopped mat( thats what I use). Cisco has a love of SS screws and Aluminium re-enforcing straps after glueing. would look great on the deck of a timber runabout in the harbour at Monte-Carlo
glassing the seams of a seat is my simple way of adding that extra bit of stiffness and allows you to remove all the SS and ally .For someone who hasnt done any fibreglass work before its a great beginners project
Gizmo
Gizmo
SA
2865 posts
SA, 2865 posts
2 Jun 2009 4:39pm
Fibreglass over timber is how "Wildfire" seat was made.
I held the plywood together with plastic cable ties through small holes in the edges, and once the inside was glassed I cut away the excess plastic ties and did the outside. simple project

This method was a radical change in boat building, it is called "stich and glue" and many small sail boats and canoes are designed and built this way, very efficent and doesn't require an internal frame.
cisco
cisco
QLD
12365 posts
QLD, 12365 posts
2 Jun 2009 10:20pm
I have downloaded the plans for the D4 dinghy (as have over 200,000 other people) which is a stitch and glue design. I thought I might build one of those as a starter project in fibreglassing. I will have a use for it too.

But of course with such a handsome pram as the D4 one would have to consider whether stainless and aluminium would be up to standard for it or would it only be bronze fittings that will meet the standard?
kiwi307
kiwi307
488 posts
488 posts
3 Jun 2009 3:57am
I have just had a look at the D4. It seems like a good project. It will teach you a lot about stitch and glue, and a little about F'glassing. It's a good looking little boat, but not spectacularly historic looking enough IMHO to need bronze fittings.
If I built one it would certainly use the more available and cheaper ss and ali fittings.
FWIW I earned my living for a number of years in the glass industry, it is not hard to do, just gets a bit tedious at times. Trying to use the available products more wisely is my fascination with the stuff.
cisco
cisco
QLD
12365 posts
QLD, 12365 posts
3 Jun 2009 2:56pm
Here is a link to a photo essay of a D4 build.
http://members.optusnet.com.au/ingle.m/boatbuildin.html

There is another one Rhys called the "Apple Pie" which is even simpler but 10" shorter and 4" narrower and also lacks built in flotation. The beauty of it is its flat bottom, ie single sheet, no join down the keel line and if it did get stolen I imagine you could put another one together in a day. Here is a link to the plans www.boatdesign.com/ . This guy recommends sheathing the boat. I assume this means clothing the boat inside and out with woven or chopped strand mat.

That seems like overexpence and overkill to me. The usual S&G is to tape the joins and resin the rest. What are your thoughts on that?

Back on to the subject:- Using stitch and glue method to build a seat for a landyacht. Paul's comment on Diablo's seat are quite valid. It would have been a LOT lighter done S&G using ply for the sides, front and back with 1" battens screwed and glued along the "gunwales'.

Another question for you. Many people are now using plastic zip ties for S&G instead of wire. This is quick but means drilling bigger holes for the ties. Would you use zip ties or stay with copper or stainless tie wire? Cheers Cisco
kiwi307
kiwi307
488 posts
488 posts
3 Jun 2009 4:27pm
Sheathing-personally I am not a fan of chopped strand for this, partially because of the difficulty / tedium of fairing it later which is a little easier with a fabric type.
With stitch and tape I now cut my own tapes with the fibres at 45 degrees so that you have multiple crosses over the join rather than very few in the direction along the joint and lots at 90.
Cable ties are very easy, I don't think the size of the holes matters. Do one side (the "non-nut" side) let it harden then cut the nuts off and glass the other. I have used mono fishing line, but you have to learn to tie fishing knots. Copper allows you to put them in, twist, and then bend again to tighten even more. The last canoe I did is 12 feet long, preglassing weighs 4.1 kg. Its just joined with Gorilla glue and dry wall screws, glassed on the inside, then the screws all removed, the outside hit with the belt sander and glassed with a 4oz boat cloth. Now it weighs just over 8kg! I do not believe any mechanical fastenings are needed to join panels. The last water yacht now 15 years old has done 2 worlds champs, and 100s of hours sailing and has not one screw or nail in the structure except to hold fittings on. No failures at all, so it must be too strong! (Needed more lead to bring to min weight than technically allowed too)
You pays your money.....
Gizmo
Gizmo
SA
2865 posts
SA, 2865 posts
3 Jun 2009 6:41pm
Just a quick question about polyester resin does it desolve glues ie. "liquid nails"
Hiko
Hiko
1229 posts
1229 posts
3 Jun 2009 5:29pm
I intend using stitch and glue for my mini seat as I am familiar with the process
having built three boats that way
I have always used copper wire in the past cutting the cloth on the bias for the taping as it is double the strength that way but double bias tape can be bought these days One trick I learnt was radiusing off the corners of the panels before wiring them up it makes fairing up the panels easier as the panels are not trying to fit corner to corner and they can be moved into position better
landyacht
landyacht
WA
5921 posts
WA, 5921 posts
3 Jun 2009 9:03pm
I dont recall mentioning the " stich and glue " system.
I make the sides of my seats from ply or plank between 12-19mm thick and the bottom from 6mm ply. you could use lighter ply or 6mm ply sides but then you have a seat that NEEDs sheathing as opposed to just the seams. I glue the joints with aquadhere and little pins or a brad gun, then just glass the join with 2"tape or a strip of mat. painting resin onto bare wood is just a waste of resin , as it drys slower , doesnt sand as well and doesnt hold paint as well
building a seat that is absurdly light then having to beef it up seems a bit silly for a yacht the size of a mini. theres not really enough room to make a seat with lots of curves( Im assuming therefore that the new Kiwi minis will be ridiculously sexy)
the mini explorer seat (all glass ) out of the mold is 4kg.


cisco
cisco
QLD
12365 posts
QLD, 12365 posts
4 Jun 2009 1:26am
landyacht said...
[br the mini explorer seat (all glass ) out of the mold is 4kg.


That with moulded comfort sounds good to me.

kiwi307
kiwi307
488 posts
488 posts
4 Jun 2009 3:58am
Paul, you are right, you didn't mention it, but Cisco asked the question, so I answered!.
Taping the joints is a technique which is an integral part of "stitch and glue" so just a method difference.
Hiko
Hiko
1229 posts
1229 posts
5 Jun 2009 5:56am
Fear not landyacht I cant imagine anything ridiculously sexy coming out of my shed
It will be grass roots basic
cant speak for the others though
cisco
cisco
QLD
12365 posts
QLD, 12365 posts
5 Jun 2009 11:37pm
Diablo is being fine tuned at the moment. When that is done it will be followed by the "sexing up". Stay tuned.
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