Forums > Sailing General

Delta type anchor issues

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Created by termite 4 months ago, 6 Feb 2019
fishmonkey
NSW, 424 posts
7 Feb 2019 5:21PM
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although a lot of work went into that anchor testing video, the tests need to be done repeatedly to generate any kind of reliable data. statistically it's hard to make any sensible comparison between the anchors that performed well given the limited testing done.

Ramona
NSW, 4982 posts
7 Feb 2019 5:59PM
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SandS said..
Can someone read all the comments in this thread , and then tell me which is the best anchor ?


How much do you wish to spend sir? A lot depends on what you can fit to your vessel. Rocna rollbar anchors wont fit into a lot of anchor wells. Spade anchors need a special mount on the bow. Ultra's are the most stolen anchors on the Australian market.

rumblefish
TAS, 726 posts
7 Feb 2019 6:47PM
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Ramona said..

UncleBob said..


Ramona said..



Granted they do look similar, however the difference in performance is extreme. If one has had no experience with a product perhaps one should refrain from commenting on it's performance.



For many years I used a SS Delta on my fishing vessel when purse seining at night over a hard sand bottom. It worked OK after a lot of tuning and testing in wet sand at the foreshore. I had to add to the "wings " to get it to self right and added more lead. I had been using a SS Bruce I had made but one night I lost it. The Bruce is a fine anchor and held well but there were many hours of labour in the construction. The delta was quick and easy to build.
Anchors are a big business and as such companies have to make a decent product at a reasonable price. People will whinge on forums if they don't work well. Bang for the buck means that Chinese made Rocnas will always be good value. Manufacturers always read these forums too and if we wait long enough we will hear from the Sarca manufacturer who has graced these pages previously. There are people out there that just want the best anchors no matter what the cost and we have examples like the Spade and the Ultra to cater for these. The Spade does not always fit easily on the bow of some vessels so this leads us to the Ultra which is my favourite. I can't afford one of course so I built a replica. The Ultra has a hollow stock and a weighted tip and always lands correctly. Up at my mates place yesterday and he was welding the stock up on his replica and he was using a hollow triangular shape for his stock, mine is a SS tube and skin monocoque. The secret to the effectiveness of high holding anchors is the weighted sharp point and the sharpness of the leading edge, File it as sharp as you can. The Bugel anchor started all this modern anchor stuff and I notice it's still a standard fitment Amel's.
anchors.synthasite.com/bugel-anchor.php
Some boat porn for you. Unfortunately not mine!




Spot on about the ultra.
If you get a chance at a boat show to see their demo with scaled down anchor versions, it will blow you away!
Mind you $2k for a 16kg is pretty steep

woko
NSW, 456 posts
7 Feb 2019 9:37PM
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I've been following this thread with interest given that the new anchors are so much better than a CQR ? Of which I've got 2 onboard, a genuine made in Scotland 60lb, and an unbranded 30lb that is my main bower, both could have the swivel pin replaced. So I was thinking to just upgrade and move with the times ? That being said the only times the CQR has let me down is in weed/ grass bottoms. ( and I was suprised, Sydney's waters have plenty )
The remaining anchoring tackle involves 40m 10mm chain, 10m 8mm chain X 2, copious amounts of rope, a 45lb Bruce ( I've never used) and a 20lb danforth that makes a fine kedge. I've also got a say 60lb fisherman that I keep in the shed
Lookin back at the list maybe I don't need any more anchors !

cisco
QLD, 11145 posts
8 Feb 2019 12:06AM
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From what I have experienced seen and heard, the Manson Supreme seems to offer the best value for money.

The Manson Plough and the CQR have been the standard for a lot of years though so if you have either of those I think they are worth hanging onto as spares or secondaries.

On my less than 4 tonne 30 footer I have a Manson Plough as primary which only ever dragged due to insufficient scope and I have an equivalent sized Danforth as secondary/spare.

Kankama
NSW, 208 posts
8 Feb 2019 6:17AM
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Cisco - when my 45 lb Supreme dragged in Cygnet I couldn't get it to set properly with 55 metres of chain in 8 metres of water. So in desperation I changed to the 45lb Manson CQR I had bought as a backup. It held fine. We used the CQR until Flinders where I thought the weed would be an issue, so back to the Supreme - not great but okay holding in the weed there. Got to Eden and lo and behold, at the southerly anchorage the Supreme wouldn't hold against full astern with heaps of scope so its back to the old CQR for me.
I liked the Supreme but its like its gone on strike, it used to be my go to anchor, the super anchor, now its just another piece of metal and I am bummed out about it.

MorningBird
NSW, 2151 posts
8 Feb 2019 9:35AM
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Kankama said..
Cisco - when my 45 lb Supreme dragged in Cygnet I couldn't get it to set properly with 55 metres of chain in 8 metres of water. So in desperation I changed to the 45lb Manson CQR I had bought as a backup. It held fine. We used the CQR until Flinders where I thought the weed would be an issue, so back to the Supreme - not great but okay holding in the weed there. Got to Eden and lo and behold, at the southerly anchorage the Supreme wouldn't hold against full astern with heaps of scope so its back to the old CQR for me.
I liked the Supreme but its like its gone on strike, it used to be my go to anchor, the super anchor, now its just another piece of metal and I am bummed out about it.


I have used a generic CQR with 20 metres of chain and 100 metres of rope in 45 kts plus gusts (in the harbour off Balmoral Beach so no real seas). It has been set numerous times in various conditions. It has never dragged, even when we were yawing savagely with a main up we couldn't get down.
I do have a Manson CQR spare.
Opinions on anchors are like arses, everybody has one.

sirgallivant
NSW, 1425 posts
8 Feb 2019 1:16PM
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The best anchor is the one which is going to save one's yacht from disaster.

Having a family and five anchors on one's yacht could not be a hindrance as one seldom locks one's family in the lazarette!

The fitting of the anchor on the bow is an issue but modifying a bow roller is much preferred by me than having an ill fitting anchor banging on the bow.

The permanent storage of any anchor on the bow of my yacht - a slick, fast sailing 28 footer - was a no-no!
Seldom l carried the anchor on the bow as it was, with the chain in the anchor well, weighing down the bow too much to my liking.
On a larger boat carrying heavy anchors would be a problem but a larger boats with more space and buoyancy up front would be better off carrying anchors on the bow, however, the storing of a long anchor chain close to the yacht's center of gravity instead of the anchor well is just common sense.
In Rhapsody's case a hawse-pipe was running from the anchor well to the second chain locker just ahead of the mast alleviating the weight problem. On this pic the first locker is shown, partially, the hawse-pipe is running back another 5+ feet to the second locker!

This storage space for the heavy 45 meter 3/8" close-link chain was paramount.

The day anchor in sand was the fortress, for nights the rocna was mobilized. Not much work to carry it from the cockpit locker to the bow.
In rocky or coral infested bottoms the big manson cqr was utilized with full chain rode and snubber. In a big blow on sand the rocna served best while for kedging l preferred the fortress.
The almost religious use of a trip-line saved my anchors a few times and having dive gear on board helped me out of a messy tangle in coral infested Qld.
The wide choice of anchors and tackles kept me sleep well.

About2
QLD, 44 posts
8 Feb 2019 4:42PM
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Ramona said..
I watched that 40 minute anchor video that did not have either Rocna anchor in it! Most anchor setting videos compare other brands of anchors to Rocnas or Spades, that was very weird.


That guy did a whole series of videos and from memory, the reason the Rocna was not in that final video above is that it did not make the cut as it had trouble resetting or dragged too far when resetting in one of the tests. I think it was this video.

SandS
VIC, 5592 posts
8 Feb 2019 5:43PM
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Ramona said..

SandS said..
Can someone read all the comments in this thread , and then tell me which is the best anchor ?



How much do you wish to spend sir? A lot depends on what you can fit to your vessel. Rocna rollbar anchors wont fit into a lot of anchor wells. Spade anchors need a special mount on the bow. Ultra's are the most stolen anchors on the Australian market.


why are ultras the most stolen ?

Ramona
NSW, 4982 posts
8 Feb 2019 6:05PM
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SandS said..

Ramona said..



why are ultras the most stolen ?


They are so pretty! Usually on large game boats etc. Couple of weeks ago I was photographing one on the ground near the slips. Owner kept a close watch on me!

sirgallivant
NSW, 1425 posts
8 Feb 2019 6:09PM
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"I could not believe it, even when I've seen it with my own eyes!" one could say!

Well, the fact is, that I do not believe it! Period!

Any anchor could fail setting if one doesn't slow the vessel down, sufficiently.
That yacht in the video was a heavy one and the 10kg rocna is recommended up to 5 tons.
For a proper, meaningful test a 15kg anchor should have been used!
One could make a heavy anchor skid on the surface at high speed let alone stop it setting.

My personal experience with the 10 kg rocna anchor and a 5t yacht at slow speeds says otherwise than what the repeatedly failing video shows.

UncleBob
NSW, 419 posts
8 Feb 2019 8:10PM
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sirgallivant said..
"I could not believe it, even when I've seen it with my own eyes!" one could say!

Well, the fact is, that I do not believe it! Period!

Any anchor could fail setting if one doesn't slow the vessel down, sufficiently.
That yacht in the video was a heavy one and the 10kg rocna is recommended up to 5 tons.
For a proper, meaningful test a 15kg anchor should have been used!
One could make a heavy anchor skid on the surface at high speed let alone stop it setting.

My personal experience with the 10 kg rocna anchor and a 5t yacht at slow speeds says otherwise than what the repeatedly failing video shows.



Have to smile, the guy follows the manufacturers sizing for each anchor, performs the same testing regime for each anchor and still those that don't believe the results for their favoured product cry foul.. Just what does it take ??

Datawiz
VIC, 494 posts
9 Feb 2019 6:34AM
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UncleBob said..


sirgallivant said..
"I could not believe it, even when I've seen it with my own eyes!" one could say!

Well, the fact is, that I do not believe it! Period!

Any anchor could fail setting if one doesn't slow the vessel down, sufficiently.
That yacht in the video was a heavy one and the 10kg rocna is recommended up to 5 tons.
For a proper, meaningful test a 15kg anchor should have been used!
One could make a heavy anchor skid on the surface at high speed let alone stop it setting.

My personal experience with the 10 kg rocna anchor and a 5t yacht at slow speeds says otherwise than what the repeatedly failing video shows.





Have to smile, the guy follows the manufacturers sizing for each anchor, performs the same testing regime for each anchor and still those that don't believe the results for their favoured product cry foul.. Just what does it take ??



I find it hard to fault his experimental method - I'd be happy to use the results he has produced to help me select the right anchor for the job.
regards to all
Allan

Ramona
NSW, 4982 posts
9 Feb 2019 7:02AM
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The only intelligent bit from this blokes videos so far has been his test where he weighed the point of the anchor in the setting position. The anchor with the most weight on the point is the winner. Unfortunately the weight on the point on his table is entirely different to what actually occurs in the water, even shallow water of 10 feet or so. The anchors with hollow shanks like the Spade and Ultra have more weight on the point in the water than they do dry. Anyway any comparison test with out one of the best selling high holding anchors like the Rocna is pointless!
The camera/buoying line attached to the roll bar on the Rocna video seemed to effect the angle the anchor sat on the bottom. To me he seems biased against roll bar anchors.

Toph
WA, 1382 posts
9 Feb 2019 5:39AM
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UncleBob said..

sirgallivant said..
"I could not believe it, even when I've seen it with my own eyes!" one could say!

Well, the fact is, that I do not believe it! Period!

Any anchor could fail setting if one doesn't slow the vessel down, sufficiently.
That yacht in the video was a heavy one and the 10kg rocna is recommended up to 5 tons.
For a proper, meaningful test a 15kg anchor should have been used!
One could make a heavy anchor skid on the surface at high speed let alone stop it setting.

My personal experience with the 10 kg rocna anchor and a 5t yacht at slow speeds says otherwise than what the repeatedly failing video shows.




Have to smile, the guy follows the manufacturers sizing for each anchor, performs the same testing regime for each anchor and still those that don't believe the results for their favoured product cry foul.. Just what does it take ??


Like what you are doing UncleBob. Having a strong opinion based on your personal experience.

My person experience with the (correct sized Roccna) is vastly different to yours and what's produced in this video.

fishmonkey
NSW, 424 posts
9 Feb 2019 9:29AM
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Datawiz said..


UncleBob said..




sirgallivant said..
"I could not believe it, even when I've seen it with my own eyes!" one could say!

Well, the fact is, that I do not believe it! Period!

Any anchor could fail setting if one doesn't slow the vessel down, sufficiently.
That yacht in the video was a heavy one and the 10kg rocna is recommended up to 5 tons.
For a proper, meaningful test a 15kg anchor should have been used!
One could make a heavy anchor skid on the surface at high speed let alone stop it setting.

My personal experience with the 10 kg rocna anchor and a 5t yacht at slow speeds says otherwise than what the repeatedly failing video shows.







Have to smile, the guy follows the manufacturers sizing for each anchor, performs the same testing regime for each anchor and still those that don't believe the results for their favoured product cry foul.. Just what does it take ??





I find it hard to fault his experimental method - I'd be happy to use the results he has produced to help me select the right anchor for the job.
regards to all
Allan



the weakness in the method is insufficient repetition of tests (too small sample size / underpowered in statistical terms). this means that random or confounding errors in the tests (e.g. on one test the anchor lands in a relatively difficult bit of seabed, or in a particularly good spot) have an unduly large effect on the results.

this doesn't mean that his tests have no merit, but they do need to be taken with a grain of salt.

UncleBob
NSW, 419 posts
9 Feb 2019 9:36AM
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Toph said..

UncleBob said..


sirgallivant said..
"I could not believe it, even when I've seen it with my own eyes!" one could say!

Well, the fact is, that I do not believe it! Period!

Any anchor could fail setting if one doesn't slow the vessel down, sufficiently.
That yacht in the video was a heavy one and the 10kg rocna is recommended up to 5 tons.
For a proper, meaningful test a 15kg anchor should have been used!
One could make a heavy anchor skid on the surface at high speed let alone stop it setting.

My personal experience with the 10 kg rocna anchor and a 5t yacht at slow speeds says otherwise than what the repeatedly failing video shows.





Have to smile, the guy follows the manufacturers sizing for each anchor, performs the same testing regime for each anchor and still those that don't believe the results for their favoured product cry foul.. Just what does it take ??



Like what you are doing UncleBob. Having a strong opinion based on your personal experience.

My person experience with the (correct sized Roccna) is vastly different to yours and what's produced in this video.


Fair comment, however in my defence I can say that I have only commented on anchors that I have used on my own boat and in the same (or close enough) locations that I can honestly compare the performance of each.

SandS
VIC, 5592 posts
9 Feb 2019 9:40AM
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interesting vids watched them both last night ..........i wondered about the different attachment points of the float and camera , having a odd effect on the tests as well ramona.
The fortress seemed to do the job pretty well though , i,ve got one as a secondary , and a cqr on the bow , maybe i should swap ?

termite
NSW, 255 posts
9 Feb 2019 10:28AM
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Wow - so much great info and comment on this topic I'm getting head spins.

My surprising lesson from the topic is that different anchors work best for different boats in different conditions (yep I'm a stable genius). I'm also realizing getting you confidence back in an anchor that has let go is hard, but might be almost as hard as deciding which one to buy after reading anchoring threads and reviews.

Take home is I'm saving for a replacement to the Delta, but meanwhile I will try to learn to drive it better as "operator error" has been known to be an issue with me. "Short list" in order of lowest to highest cost includes the Mantus, Supreme, Excel and Rocna. Might end up with the Mantus if I can work out how to get it on the bow roller as price is still an issue and its quite a different anchor to the Delta which I'll keep as back up.

Bill

About2
QLD, 44 posts
9 Feb 2019 12:01PM
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Disagree that what this guy did is invalid. He did in fact much more than anyone would normally do when trying to assess a new anchor for themselves and made it as fair and comparable as could be expected by an individual making some videos and sharing his experiences. They are real results of his testing which is just a fact.

Beyond that, it is just armchair critics giving baseless opinions (often about anchors they don't own), mixed with some real experiences from people that actually own the anchors they talk about. Real experiences matter, opinions not so much.

You will come to your own conclusion and decision based on things that matter to you. For me, after a night of dragging with the Manson plough, I researched and decided on the Sarca Excel over the Rocna which was on my list also as my research convinced me that the excel was a better option for me.

frant
VIC, 1219 posts
9 Feb 2019 12:04PM
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Well I have a 25kg Rocna on my Beneteau First 44.7. Probably thumbing my nose up at a lot on here but I don't have any trouble getting to or holding in tropical sand anchorages. Can usually watch the anchor bite in 10 m of water. Seems as though the water temperature is not the critical factor as it holds well in Bass Strait anchorages as well. Must be just lucky with the shoddy French construction and cheap Chinese steel.

Ramona
NSW, 4982 posts
9 Feb 2019 4:48PM
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The best test is to size the anchor you require for your vessel. Narrow down to ones you can actually carry on your bow or anchor locker. Search out the templates for the anchors your interested in and make several in mild steel. Add the lead weights if required. Then carry out your own tests at the beach in wet sand and in the shallows. Only need a metre or so of chain. Make sure the anchor self rights quickly and easily. The holding power wont vary that much because the surface area on the various modern anchors are very similar for the weights. The shank to the blade is pretty much around 31 degrees for all of them. Rollbar anchors have a bit more area once the bar gets down to the bottom surface in sand etc. Once you have tried them, build the successful anchor is stainless.



SandS
VIC, 5592 posts
9 Feb 2019 5:45PM
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Select to expand quote
Ramona said..
The best test is to size the anchor you require for your vessel. Narrow down to ones you can actually carry on your bow or anchor locker. Search out the templates for the anchors your interested in and make several in mild steel. Add the lead weights if required. Then carry out your own tests at the beach in wet sand and in the shallows. Only need a metre or so of chain. Make sure the anchor self rights quickly and easily. The holding power wont vary that much because the surface area on the various modern anchors are very similar for the weights. The shank to the blade is pretty much around 31 degrees for all of them. Rollbar anchors have a bit more area once the bar gets down to the bottom surface in sand etc. Once you have tried them, build the successful anchor is stainless.




isnt SS too brittle for an anchor ?

woko
NSW, 456 posts
9 Feb 2019 6:50PM
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Sitting on anchor watch, with a shortish rode NNE gusting to 20kts, waiting the tide change, then I can let more chain out. It's a dumb place to be but I will be sitting pretty when the southerly change comes thru in the early hours.
In light of the recent anchor design debate can anyone elaborate on why the CQR (not the Manson ) has its mouldboard and shank coupled with a swivel ?

Toph
WA, 1382 posts
9 Feb 2019 5:57PM
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UncleBob, (as an owner and defender of the Rocna), I can actually see your point of view. I do find the Rocna brings up half the ocean with it especially when anchoring in mud. It is easy to see how it won't reset if the point can't re-bed. I can only see a mud bottom being a problem here and I would suspect ALL anchors have their achillies heel. But again, it has not been my experience....

The testing in the video may be consistent (from what we can gather), but I don't think it was consistent with common sense. What I mean by that, is if you consider the testers simulation of a 3x scope due to a crowded anchorage and no room for more , with suspected bad weather or at least high winds where you can expect a drag of 3 knots (and in the case of the rocna test, an inappropriately sized anchor), why are you still there? I would change anchorage if possible or (and have) moved out the back where I could lay out more rode.

Same as Frant, I have a 25kg Rocna or a similar size boat. I've only had issues with setting it 2 or 3 times and it has only dragged once and it wasn't even in 4 days of 37+kts (and to be fair it was more of a dislodgment and honestly thankfully so. I went to bed that night thinking I was going to have to cut the chain in the morning).

Interestingly though, I can relate to the issue of the Rocna not setting if backing down too fast, so I don't, and can therefore also see from the video if you were drifting at a great rate of knots, the possibility for it to not reset.

Ramona
NSW, 4982 posts
10 Feb 2019 6:32AM
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SandS said..

Ramona said..





isnt SS too brittle for an anchor ?


Utra's only come stainless.

Kankama
NSW, 208 posts
10 Feb 2019 7:10AM
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When I watch the video about the Manson Supreme it seemed to me to show exactly the problems I had with the anchor - so the experiment seems to be replicated by my experience. I need an anchor that handle changes in direction and there may be slight changes in anchor shape due to wear that cause large variations. Maybe the extra windage of a cat puts large snap loads on the anchor (we are pushing the anchor - and could go up a size and also run 8mm chain) so the 45lb Supreme may be better for a boat that is slower on anchor than our light 4000kg cat with not heaps of windage. Most monos react much slower than we do and we can get some snap in our anchoring motion. We thought of using nylon bridle lines led aft to increase elasticity in the rode to help the anchor out. But when we dragged in Cygnet the large amount of scope I put out probably allowed the boat to attain a higher speed before it reversed load on the anchor, pretty much replicating the 3 knot reverse tests done on the video.

Most anchor tests by magazines are done in straight pull situations and the shock loading of a boat is not considered. This could account for different boats having differing success with the same design.

sirgallivant
NSW, 1425 posts
10 Feb 2019 10:06AM
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A wasp's nest, it reminds me our anchor thread , good, discussion elates the soul and exercises the mind as well as it might help to save a yacht or two in the bargain.
Most of the posts confirm my experiences with the rocna despite the curious video which shows the same anchor failing in almost every occasion.

The anchors l carried except the small grapnels, were all utilised for holding the yacht, for years, in different conditions, to the bottom. I count those occasions as successful tests under live conditions. I never had a real bad experience but l always been conservative with my choice of equipment and if it became the wrong choice or circumstances changed l swapped the anchor and or the tackle.
I remember one occasion when the sand anchor got abandoned in the afternoon's rising wind for the rocna which held the yacht admirably during the night.

I had another anchor a 17kg cqr which caused constant disappointment and it ended up at home and the rocna took it's place in the lazarette.
A while later it was sold for a slab of coopers ale to SectorSteve who used it on his Qld trip in his top hat with great success. On his return he spoke of that very anchor with great enthusiasm, how good it held his yacht even under trying circumstances in those huge tides up north. I also wonder, how many times did he anchor with a 2-2.5-3x scope? I bet, never. The old books recommended minimum 6x scope under normal conditions and 8-12x scope in adversity.

Should one think the cqr was a cheap, 'bad' anchor? No, l don't think so, it was a good anchor as a matter of fact, a very good anchor regardless of its price. Just was not the one for my yacht.

There is no doubt in my mind about the way l would equip my next yacht's anchor locker and money would absolutely nothing to do with it.

fishmonkey
NSW, 424 posts
12 Feb 2019 10:55AM
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the mob at Attainable Adventure Cruising used to recommend the Rocna and Spade as a primary bow anchors. based on the tests above and a handful of reports of Rocna's failing to reset they now only recommend the Spade as a primary anchor...

if you have access (you can get full free access for a limited period), the information and comments on this page pretty well cover the issues we have been discussing regarding testing methodologies and fallacies:

www.morganscloud.com/2015/10/09/anchor-tests-the-good-the-bad-and-the-downright-silly/

here is one of the pertinent comments:

My professional career started with the test and evaluation of some very expensive stuff, satellites and the rockets to launch them. Test cost often reached 50% of the developmental cost. Unfortunately, some of the test ethic we applied in those days is no longer affordable. We designed tests along two axes - test to destruction and test to develop the perimeters of a performance envelope.

Most, OK all, of the anchor test results I have seen in 41 years of sailing have conflated the two testing regimes and have resulted in three fallacies, intended or not. Fallacy 1 = test conditions accurately reflect operational use. Fallacy 2 = enough testing has been done to produce statistically significant results. Fallacy 3 = test designs capture environmental variability. These fallacies are either derivative of tester bias or external ($$$) constraints on test design, execution, and interpretation.



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"Delta type anchor issues" started by termite