Forums > Sailing General

ELBE No 5 sinks after collision

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Created by shaggybaxter 2 months ago, 16 Jun 2019
shaggybaxter
QLD, 1750 posts
16 Jun 2019 4:47AM
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A good example on how important clear communication needs to be.
Elbe 5 was the last wooden schooner from Hamburg built in 1883, and had just been slipped a few days prior to this after a $2 mill dollar renovation project.
I hope I'm wrong, but it appears that it was the schooner is at fault. It appears the right call is made to tack back onto port (Hafen!!) , but Instead the crew heave the tiller to port. The target fixation in the lead up to the collision is a pretty good lesson in itself.
Can't really blame the container ship for this one.
It's so sad to see, I hope they can refloat her.








Prior pic, its now sitting on the bottom.

Donk107
TAS, 2234 posts
16 Jun 2019 6:49AM
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Hi Shaggy

It looked like there was plenty of time to avoid the ship and it makes you wonder why they didn't steer away earlier

Regards Don

Ramona
NSW, 5112 posts
16 Jun 2019 7:43AM
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I'm guessing the schooner was fully insured! Uninsured boats would have beared away and passed down the ships starboard side. The ship in that confined space would probably had right of way. Basic rule when sailing is not to bump into other boats.

Madmouse
174 posts
16 Jun 2019 5:47AM
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Wow. Hope no one was killed.

Sectorsteve
NSW, 2140 posts
16 Jun 2019 7:51AM
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Really dumb. Wind looked like it was on stbd quarter so minimal sail adjustment and tiller to stbd would have made it easy to avoid.

Andrew68
VIC, 257 posts
16 Jun 2019 8:12AM
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It turns out there was another rescue operation going on nearby which was diverted and miraculously nobody was killed. Lots of injuries though.

Never underestimate how fast those big boats go, it's so much more relaxing to pass to stern !

A

Sectorsteve
NSW, 2140 posts
16 Jun 2019 9:14AM
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Exactly. Stay well away. They soldier on fast and cannot stop.
Even passing big ships too close to stern is dangerous. They churn alot of water.

Donk107
TAS, 2234 posts
16 Jun 2019 12:36PM
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There is a far bit of discussion on the YBW forum about this and some differing opinions on what happened

www.ybw.com/forums/showthread.php?521990-Historic-schooner-sunk-by-container-ship

Regards Don

Shanty
QLD, 487 posts
16 Jun 2019 1:11PM
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Very sad about the boat. It indeed looks like the yacht thought he had right of way. Just a tip I reckon from being on motorboats when you are in front of a trawler or a ship ( and sometimes any motorboat). They are probably not going to stop for you (until the last second), you hear can see how people talk smack about yacht ids when they take no regard at all to a motor boat. I always used to just go around them.

Remeber 70% of trawlermen don't know that it is a fair bit harder to stop a sailing yacht, than it is a motor vessel.

If you see a motor boat that you can probably go behind then do so.

Just my 2 cents worth.
Regards,
Mick

troubadour
NSW, 119 posts
16 Jun 2019 1:48PM
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Very dumb on the part of the schooner skipper. Large vessel constained by draught has right of way over sailing vessel. Could have been so easily avoided. Very irresponsible to put the safety of his vessel and all those onboard at risk.

Shanty
QLD, 487 posts
16 Jun 2019 1:50PM
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Select to expand quote
troubadour said..
Very dumb on the part of the schooner skipper. Large vessel constained by draught has right of way over sailing vessel. Could have been so easily avoided. Very irresponsible to put the safety of his vessel and all those onboard at risk.


Agreed

Bananabender
QLD, 749 posts
16 Jun 2019 1:53PM
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The courts finding will be interesting.
IMO based on video incompetence by the schooner skipper and failure of MV ,s skipper to notify intention .
The schooner should have bore away to clearly show the MV it's intention. There is no way the MV would hear the schooners five blasts which were too late anyway.
By the same token the MV should have sounded horn on intention. Perhaps they don't bother in such a busy channel?
Having been in that situation with far less time than schooner had the container/cargo ship coming out of the driving rain in the West PP channel gave me two short blasts and I knew what to do.

Shanty
QLD, 487 posts
16 Jun 2019 1:59PM
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Select to expand quote
Bananabender said..
The courts finding will be interesting.
IMO based on video incompetence by the schooner skipper and failure of MV ,s skipper to notify intention .
The schooner should have bore away to clearly show the MV it's intention. There is no way the MV would hear the schooners five blasts which were too late anyway.
By the same token the MV should have sounded horn on intention. Perhaps they don't bother in such a busy channel?
Having been in that situation with far less time than schooner had the container/cargo ship coming out of the driving rain in the West PP channel gave me two short blasts and I knew what to do.


The schooner seems like a pain in the arse to control. Needed like five guys to turn the tiller, like are you for real.

Bananabender
QLD, 749 posts
16 Jun 2019 2:46PM
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Boy it's easy sitting in my armchair . Look at video.
Opening shot schooner on starboard tack and MV s starboard (Green) side in clear view. So ease sheets no matter how hard on schooner. QED.
Argument could be MV was changing course and heading toward them in Schooners skippers mind to pass red to red . Na.

Shanty
QLD, 487 posts
16 Jun 2019 2:52PM
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It's like one of them "to be continued" videos on YouTube.

Donk107
TAS, 2234 posts
16 Jun 2019 3:03PM
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I guess that this raises the question of how many of us have a horn on board if we need to signal our intentions to another boat

I don't

Regards Don

Shanty
QLD, 487 posts
16 Jun 2019 3:11PM
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Select to expand quote
Donk107 said..
I guess that this raises the question of how many of us have a horn on board if we need to signal our intentions to another boat

I don't

Regards Don


$20 whitworths

Bananabender
QLD, 749 posts
16 Jun 2019 3:15PM
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Select to expand quote
Donk107 said..
I guess that this raises the question of how many of us have a horn on board if we need to signal our intentions to another boat

I don't

Regards Don


Got one of these. Tested it a couple of months back. Frightened the hell out me.LOUD.
www.whitworths.com.au/mini-gas-air-horn

shaggybaxter
QLD, 1750 posts
16 Jun 2019 4:59PM
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Select to expand quote
Bananabender said..


Donk107 said..
I guess that this raises the question of how many of us have a horn on board if we need to signal our intentions to another boat

I don't

Regards Don




Got one of these. Tested it a couple of months back. Frightened the hell out me.LOUD.
www.whitworths.com.au/mini-gas-air-horn


Lazzz
NSW, 452 posts
16 Jun 2019 5:15PM
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Select to expand quote
Donk107 said..
I guess that this raises the question of how many of us have a horn on board if we need to signal our intentions to another boat


Been known to scare the guests on occasions!!

Shanty
QLD, 487 posts
16 Jun 2019 5:24PM
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What are those tiny things lazz?
PS I need these

garymalmgren
246 posts
16 Jun 2019 4:56PM
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A horn might be loud, but a VHF radio has a longer range and can be heard on the bridge of any ship.

gary

Donk107
TAS, 2234 posts
16 Jun 2019 7:01PM
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Select to expand quote
garymalmgren said..
A horn might be loud, but a VHF radio has a longer range and can be heard on the bridge of any ship.

gary


The only problem with the VHF is both boats have to be on the same channel (unless you have one that can scan)

When we are cruising we are on 16 but when we are racing we are on 77 so if someone calls us on 16 during a race we are not going to hear them

Regards Don

woko
NSW, 486 posts
16 Jun 2019 7:18PM
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Viewing the vid I thort the 5 blast of the horn where from the container vessel ? Hard to pick out restricted by draught shape but you would just give a big girl like that a wide berth.
Maybe as shaggy pointed out helm to port looks to have been taken as tiller to port. Lucky no one was killed ! Old schooner would have to be a write off ie a pile of sticks.

woko
NSW, 486 posts
16 Jun 2019 7:23PM
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Select to expand quote
Donk107 said..

garymalmgren said..
A horn might be loud, but a VHF radio has a longer range and can be heard on the bridge of any ship.

gary



The only problem with the VHF is both boats have to be on the same channel (unless you have one that can scan)

When we are cruising we are on 16 but when we are racing we are on 77 so if someone calls us on 16 during a race we are not going to hear them

Regards Don


Most vhf have Dual watch for a good reason

Donk107
TAS, 2234 posts
16 Jun 2019 7:24PM
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Select to expand quote
woko said..
Viewing the vid I thort the 5 blast of the horn where from the container vessel ? Hard to pick out restricted by draught shape but you would just give a big girl like that a wide berth.
Maybe as shaggy pointed out helm to port looks to have been taken as tiller to port. Lucky no one was killed ! Old schooner would have to be a write off ie a pile of sticks.


Hi Woko

When you watch the video you can see the crew member on the Schooner pressing the horn button when the 2 sets of 5 horn blasts occur

Regards Don

SandS
VIC, 5682 posts
16 Jun 2019 7:24PM
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Select to expand quote
Donk107 said..
I guess that this raises the question of how many of us have a horn on board if we need to signal our intentions to another boat

I don't

Regards Don


A cheap fog horn from whitworths is all we carry . really loud !! you just blow into a small hole on the side . scares the crap out of everyone on board !!!!
really only useful if you are under power ,constrained by draft ,and a small vessel is sitting in the channel unaware that they are blocking the channel .

Sectorsteve
NSW, 2140 posts
16 Jun 2019 7:38PM
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horn doesnt cure idiocy. drive in front of big container ship? all the decibels in the world are not going to stop that ship mowing you down.
that skipper should have beared away well before.

Shanty
QLD, 487 posts
16 Jun 2019 7:42PM
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Select to expand quote
garymalmgren said..
A horn might be loud, but a VHF radio has a longer range and can be heard on the bridge of any ship.

gary


I reckon you would use a VHF if you where still deciding how the hell you are going to pass the ship. Say about 3-10 minutes before ETC (expected time of collision). If that doesn't work start using your horn whilst getting out of the way. In all fairness those ships are hard to control in confined spaces. Like you should see when we try and move them with tugs.
I just think give them some respect and get out of the way.

woko
NSW, 486 posts
16 Jun 2019 8:19PM
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Select to expand quote
Donk107 said..

woko said..
Viewing the vid I thort the 5 blast of the horn where from the container vessel ? Hard to pick out restricted by draught shape but you would just give a big girl like that a wide berth.
Maybe as shaggy pointed out helm to port looks to have been taken as tiller to port. Lucky no one was killed ! Old schooner would have to be a write off ie a pile of sticks.



Hi Woko

When you watch the video you can see the crew member on the Schooner pressing the horn button when the 2 sets of 5 horn blasts occur

Regards Don


Gday Don, I didn't realise they were both signalling unclear of your intentions. Could well be the reason it went to s**t, horn blasts could of been misenterperated owing to one being drowned out by the other

shaggybaxter
QLD, 1750 posts
16 Jun 2019 9:05PM
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Select to expand quote
Donk107 said..

garymalmgren said..
A horn might be loud, but a VHF radio has a longer range and can be heard on the bridge of any ship.

gary



The only problem with the VHF is both boats have to be on the same channel (unless you have one that can scan)

When we are cruising we are on 16 but when we are racing we are on 77 so if someone calls us on 16 during a race we are not going to hear them

Regards Don


Hi Don,
DSC provides some pretty good and simple solutions for this problem. You can dial the other ship with some preset messages that will sort all this out for you, it's pretty cool. DSC was a big part of the reason I got an MMSI.



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"ELBE No 5 sinks after collision" started by shaggybaxter