2 new boards for the guys

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LSD
LSD
VIC
763 posts
LSD LSD
VIC, 763 posts
4 Sep 2009 10:48pm
dtm is that a psh your riding?...... they are not "low profile thin rails"
laceys lane
laceys lane
QLD
19804 posts
QLD, 19804 posts
4 Sep 2009 10:55pm
LSD said...

dtm is that a psh your riding?...... they are not "low profile thin rails"



this might be more like it!

LSD
LSD
VIC
763 posts
LSD LSD
VIC, 763 posts
4 Sep 2009 11:08pm
What would you say those rails are classed as guys?

Have you guys taken video of rails at work? or at least looked down & back to see what job your rails are actualy doing while riding fast?

Making comparisons with goat boats, short surf boards, or any other surf craft is not a good idea when aiming at improved performance of a SUB, a SUB has quite a contradictory job to do.
Think about it .....
laceys lane
laceys lane
QLD
19804 posts
QLD, 19804 posts
4 Sep 2009 11:18pm
LSD said...

What would you say those rails are classed as guys?

Have you guys taken video of rails at work? or at least looked down & back to see what job your rails are actualy doing while riding fast?

Making comparisons with goat boats, short surf boards, or any other surf craft is not a good idea when aiming at improved performance of a SUB, a SUB has quite a contradictory job to do.
Think about it .....


hi, i wasn't stating anything, just a photo of a lower railed sub. however, you might find it interesting the naish 8 10 is not a lower railed board by any means. theory is one thing and surfing boards is another. i go by what i feel generally
cheers
Bnaccas
Bnaccas
VIC
1722 posts
VIC, 1722 posts
5 Sep 2009 12:05am
lacey said...
this might be more like it!




That looks just like the rails on my Oxbow 9'6". It is tippy for its size but isn't by any means loose compared to the newer boards.
The Oxbow rails are thinner than that of the 9'6" PSH and they both turn very similar. To be honest I don't know the answer but
I think there's a lot more in a SUB than just the rails and fins.
Bnaccas
Bnaccas
VIC
1722 posts
VIC, 1722 posts
5 Sep 2009 12:13am
I think weight is a MAJOR factor on how the board will turn and speed rail to rail.

Like swinging a piece of bamboo compared to a hammer. You know what I mean!

edit...I'm talking fast snappy turns.
DavidJohn
DavidJohn
VIC
17570 posts
VIC, 17570 posts
5 Sep 2009 12:34am
Bnaccas said...

I think weight is a MAJOR factor on how the board will turn and speed rail to rail.

Like swinging a piece of bamboo compared to a hammer. You know what I mean!


No.. .. Honestly.. No.

I'm keen to jump in on this with my thoughts and I just went outside to take a pic of the nice fine rails of a Hawaiian board that I have but the pictures didn't turn out very well in the dark.. and it's cold and wet out there.

This Hawaiian board worked so well there.. But I never really got it going here.. The rails were just too thin.. and the rocker also seemed wrong.

I'll take some pics tomorrow.

DJ



PeterP
PeterP
873 posts
873 posts
5 Sep 2009 12:06am
Interesting topic - and one that can go on for a while to find definitive answers. I think LSD is spot on when he says he makes boards for the prevailing conditions and the guys that must ride them. I also agree with Goatmans thinner rails surf better argument - but I think he feels that way because of the waves he rides and the way he wants to ride them.

My take on rails is that they must be designed to fulfill the need of the rider, ie fuller, if the guy wants stability, and thinner if the guy wants hold at speed as thicker rails tend to cork out.

But most important is the shape, you want a rail that goes from hold (pulls rail into water) to one which gives release. This is achieved by using round, tucked and hard edge rails towards the tail.

One of my old shapers used to demonstrate this by taking a breakfast-spoon and holding the handle bit between two fingers and letting spoon hang straight down. He'd then turn on the tap and let the vertical hanging spoon hit the water coming out of tap. The "hard-edge" would make the spoon bounce away from stream of water while the rounded back of spoon would make it "stick" to the water. This demonstrates hold and release beautifully.

But another factor is the speed you are travelling at. LSD's conditions, by the sound of things, favours fuller rails because boardspeed is lower than the average wave Goatman rides.

I ride a wide Starboard 8'5 x 30 with fullish rails - it's great up to a certain speed and then things start getting a little squirrely, so if you are riding mushier waves it's fantastic because it's so loose and goes where you want it - but I wouldn't want that as my only board for Teahupoo - but then again - no board would make me go out at Chopes.......
LSD
LSD
VIC
763 posts
LSD LSD
VIC, 763 posts
5 Sep 2009 7:34am
I think there's a lot more in a SUB than just the rails and fins.


AT LAST.....Well Said Bnaccas.......... its the god dam width of a SUB that we need to keep us comfortable while hunting waves with our high C oF G.

People keep making comparisons with other craft, we cant do that so much with SUB's
The C of G dictates the width.
And the width dictates where we have to stand to hold an edge, certainly a fine low rail will provide more bite into steep wave face, but when boards get short we need all the roll stability we can get by adding width & rail buoyancy.
Have a look at the shots of Tahiti & Indo in the Starboard catalogue, some great shots of how to make a SUB rail hang in......STAND ON IT.
Next time your on a vertical wave face, have quick look at where your feet are in relation to the centre line.....particularly the back one! Your standin on that fat sucker of a rail to make it bite. (thats normaly not done with a goat boat or 6' short board is it! being comparativley narrow)
This is where it gets a more complex, to be able to stand on a rail at high speed, the fins have to be working well.
Its a bit like nose riding a board, if you have too little a fin area you side slip easyer/sooner. Drive is needed to keep the rail imbeded in the wave.
The shorter SUB has much less rail length to have to manage, so we get away with it for longer.
A very good reason why not to use low rails on a short SUB is the greatly increased tendancy for catching rail.
And of course there is the rider skill level......some people can ride piece of drift wood & make look good.
On this small wave below, its interesting to study how the far the rail is imbedded at a relativley low speed by the drive from the fin & also the very round board outline lets the wide point into the wave, far more than a long board with its greater area/buoyancy.
But as speed increases, the water pressure under the board will lift it further out to a point relative to the riders weight.
I have a 10mm concave under the front third of the board providing much lift & also tends to turn the the rail down into the wave giving grip/stability while on the nose.



boarder paul
boarder paul
1952 posts
1952 posts
5 Sep 2009 9:01am
LSD, Would you consider going to market with your boards.
goatman
goatman
NSW
2151 posts
NSW, 2151 posts
5 Sep 2009 12:02pm
Just to qualify what I mean by low rails for a SUP and that is about 30% thinner than my 9 3 Ripper in the middle and more like the 12 foot gun in the rear.

There is obviosly a lot more to a SUP than rails and fins as stated.

Would be nice to have a play with a whole range of design ideas if ya had the time!!

Short wide and fat with a single fin still takes me back to my early shortboards in the 70s though!
LSD
LSD
VIC
763 posts
LSD LSD
VIC, 763 posts
5 Sep 2009 1:26pm
boarder paul said...

LSD, Would you consider going to market with your boards.


I should..... just come in from an epic small session @ Bells, just my son on his 7'10" & another guy on a 10'6"psh & his daughter. After watching how the short boards went he wanted 2.
Waves were a foot or two bigger than the shot of waves here Thur.


boarder paul
boarder paul
1952 posts
1952 posts
5 Sep 2009 11:31am
Awsome news, i hope you took the two orders?

I seem to gravetate towards the lizard colour board so it was called once.

It has a retro apeal to it for me in its colour.
LSD
LSD
VIC
763 posts
LSD LSD
VIC, 763 posts
5 Sep 2009 2:59pm
goatman said...

Just to qualify what I mean by low rails for a SUP and that is about 30% thinner than my 9 3 Ripper in the middle and more like the 12 foot gun in the rear.

There is obviosly a lot more to a SUP than rails and fins as stated.

Would be nice to have a play with a whole range of design ideas if ya had the time!!

Short wide and fat with a single fin still takes me back to my early shortboards in the 70s though!


Yes it is nice to be able to think of a board design then scury of to the shed & make it.
Gotie, why do you compare a modern SUB to a 70's board...there is no similarity between the two, you know that.
How wide was the 70's board....& how wide is a short SUB.
I dont give a rats if my boards look wrong or fat like a pig. All I care about is that they work well.
The thrust & speed for riding small waves is generated by the midsection width & it is proportionate to a riders weight.
And p1ss off the mal riders even more, not only do they out paddle, they ride waves better...& why is that?
The short boards are obviously more weight sensitive. With your history you know what I'm on about.
goatman
goatman
NSW
2151 posts
NSW, 2151 posts
5 Sep 2009 5:06pm
LSD, are you coming to the Mambo? Would be cool to check your boards.

Don't get me wrong I don't think your boards look 'wrong', just beg to differ on some of your comments about the boys surfing at the Aussies, fins, SUP width theory and so on. All good debate

A mate of mine has just made a SUP he designed with some shaping software - so we are hoping to have a bit of a play with designs as well.
LSD
LSD
VIC
763 posts
LSD LSD
VIC, 763 posts
5 Sep 2009 5:55pm
goatman said...

LSD, are you coming to the Mambo? Would be cool to check your boards.

Don't get me wrong I don't think your boards look 'wrong', just beg to differ on some of your comments about the boys surfing at the Aussies, fins, SUP width theory and so on. All good debate

A mate of mine has just made a SUP he designed with some shaping software - so we are hoping to have a bit of a play with designs as well.

Would like to....depends how things pan out here in the next few weeks.
Cheers
Dean
loco4olas
loco4olas
NSW
1525 posts
NSW, 1525 posts
5 Sep 2009 9:05pm
goatman said...

Just to qualify what I mean by low rails for a SUP and that is about 30% thinner than my 9 3 Ripper in the middle and more like the 12 foot gun in the rear.

There is obviosly a lot more to a SUP than rails and fins as stated.

Would be nice to have a play with a whole range of design ideas if ya had the time!!

Short wide and fat with a single fin still takes me back to my early shortboards in the 70s though!


Gott'a say I feel the same way as you about my 903 Ripper-it's starting to feel like a barge to me now, kinda' slow and heavy and not able to throw it around as much as I'd like-if you compare it to Blane's later models it's obviously dated now-just too boaty in rail thickness and overall foil-especially for me coming off a 601 chip surfboard.

It's evident that we're still in the early days of SUB design and there's a ways to go before an optimum is arrived at.

John, really looking forward to how your new LB goes for you.

LSD keep it up mate-really enjoy the divergent views here and the manner in which they're expressed.
OG SUP
OG SUP
VIC
3516 posts
VIC, 3516 posts
6 Sep 2009 8:36am
Hey Brendon,

Last weekend I had a fantastic oportunity to test the board weight issue in solid surf.

I was on the DC 9.4 which by all means for a 9.4 is super light and then swapped with Rich for the PSH 9.6WAA which is significantly heavier. The surf was solid 6ft+ faces and 20knts + wind coming up the face.

The DC was at least 25% faster in speed no doubt and speed IMO is everything if you want to pull radical turns.

The PSH though allowed me to rip tighter turns (narrower tail) all be it at slower speed and by all means did not restrict what I wanted to do or where I wanted to take it on the wave. I would love to have seen it on video too compare the two rides.

The DC was flightier in the wind off the top and the PSH was rock solid and drew itself back down.

I found both boards to be very impressive. Both boards were running thruster fin sets at the time and even in the bigger waves did not put foot wrong even with my wide ass on them.

I believe the real difference will comeabout in the 2 - 3ft surf and thats when the lighter boards will rule.

I actually found the PSH to be more stable whilst waiting for a wave as it was a little less corky.

I have tried the big single fin after talking to Dean and I do believe it has merrit.

I am experimenting with a fluid foils pigs ear fin, that I have used in my longboards with great success and will post the results when I get some credible conclusions.

I think we all have lots to learn about board weight, fins, rails etc and nothing should be ruled out.

IMO for too long the board design sacred cows have been allowed to romp around the paddock.

I say stoke up the fire boys and lets have some BBQ with them sacred cows.

Phill

Bnaccas said...

I think weight is a MAJOR factor on how the board will turn and speed rail to rail.

Like swinging a piece of bamboo compared to a hammer. You know what I mean!

edit...I'm talking fast snappy turns.


Bnaccas
Bnaccas
VIC
1722 posts
VIC, 1722 posts
6 Sep 2009 5:14pm
OG SUP said...

Hey Brendon,
.......

I actually found the PSH to be more stable whilst waiting for a wave as it was a little less corky.



I agree 100% with pretty much all that Phill. I rekon this corky thing just means you can go less
volume or maybe a slightly lower profile rail. If you added a couple of kg's of weight across the
whole board do you think it would make it less corky?
daletor
daletor
VIC
301 posts
VIC, 301 posts
6 Sep 2009 5:37pm
Bnaccas said...

[b] I rekon this corky thing just means you can go less
volume or maybe a slightly lower profile rail.


Corkiness is thickness/volume/weight. There have not been many boards made under 4". I beleive this will be the next step in board design to see how much thinner they can go and the improved rail thickness it will bring.

My previous board felt corky the first two times I used but then I got used to it and it became irrelevant. Then I just enjoyed being able to hit lips!


husq2100
husq2100
QLD
2031 posts
QLD, 2031 posts
6 Sep 2009 6:03pm
i wouldnt think that "corkiness" would come down to the weight of the board, but rather how the board displaces it.

think of a piece of string with the same surface are as a maca's tray, put it in the water and place weight on it.... now put a maca's tray in the water and put weight on it...

thats like a light guy and a heavy guy getting on the same board... and thats where LSD is making boards specific for the individual...

Serg
oliver
oliver
3952 posts
3952 posts
6 Sep 2009 4:11pm
If your board feels corky, it probably means you have a board with too much volume for your weight. It makes sense that if you reduce the thickness or the width then the board would feel less corky.

I'd imagine that if you were to reduce the volume by increasing the width and less thickness it would be more stable than the other way around. But I have no idea what would surf better.
boarder paul
boarder paul
1952 posts
1952 posts
6 Sep 2009 4:25pm
I agree somewhat there, If you go back to the day of the bonger board It was narrow but fat steep deck. Corky and unstable

Make it shorter wider and thiner, Same float but better performance.
LSD
LSD
VIC
763 posts
LSD LSD
VIC, 763 posts
6 Sep 2009 6:45pm
A lot of boards are made way too thick, mainly to cover a broader market (or waist line)
Obviously enough buoyancy is needed to float a rider, but buy having a minimal thickness, stability is added in 2 ways, the roll is slowed by the rails being imersed in water, it takes more energy/time to drain. And the obvious C of G lower.

But some guys have a built in low Centre of Gravity.....dont they Oliver

Adam Quite stable 95kg on 7' 10" Note the water over tail.

hilly
hilly
WA
8135 posts
WA, 8135 posts
6 Sep 2009 8:12pm
LSD can you please post 2 photos one of your boards on a wave and one of someone paddling in the ocean only see them in the lake. Would be a nice change. Look nice and stable in flat water.
OG SUP
OG SUP
VIC
3516 posts
VIC, 3516 posts
6 Sep 2009 10:26pm
Hi Hilly,

I have seen Dean rip it up in many many sessions and his son Adam also is off the hook.

If you saw Adam at 95kg ride his 7'8 it would change your mind I assure you.

This is 3 pics taken a few weeks ago.

Phill







hilly
hilly
WA
8135 posts
WA, 8135 posts
6 Sep 2009 8:31pm
Sorry I mean a wave they are really small I want to know how they perform in some juice at least this big

Just kidding wanted to see photos bored with words
teatrea
teatrea
QLD
4177 posts
QLD, 4177 posts
6 Sep 2009 10:37pm
Tit for Tat Ratatatat.It has been entertaining guys but you keping me up.Hilly and LSD can we shake hands agree to disagree and move on now.
OG SUP
OG SUP
VIC
3516 posts
VIC, 3516 posts
6 Sep 2009 10:38pm
Hilly I have seen Dean out in double OH+, the boards work in anything we see here in Vicco.

I dont have pics but Dean will charge pretty much anything I have seen lately and in the last few weeks there have been many that havent left the beach I assure you.

I know he also SUPS off the hook Bells.

Phill
laceys lane
laceys lane
QLD
19804 posts
QLD, 19804 posts
6 Sep 2009 10:44pm
daletor said...

Bnaccas said...

[b] I rekon this corky thing just means you can go less
volume or maybe a slightly lower profile rail.


Corkiness is thickness/volume/weight. There have not been many boards made under 4". I beleive this will be the next step in board design to see how much thinner they can go and the improved rail thickness it will bring.

My previous board felt corky the first two times I used but then I got used to it and it became irrelevant. Then I just enjoyed being able to hit lips!





i can tell you my board at 8' 10"x29"x 4" and a low rail means if your board tips to one side and goes under water, it's very hard to correct, if at all. the naish 8 10 has a thicker rail- you can make a save,that what a few of the boy's are finding on them
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