Forums > Stand Up Paddle General

Low litres getting old

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Created by Foam 2 months ago, 4 Aug 2018
Foam
WA, 667 posts
4 Aug 2018 5:33PM
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All this carry on is getting frustrating, I mean let's not forget 99percent of punters here are in real world surf conditions.

Sure some ride below there limit and that's great
But it gets frustrating when talking to new suppers and they say that guy is 90kg...and he said he rides 100 litres

Hmm yes maybe so but go back and ask how long was your session and when was the last day you were able to use that board

I mean come on.. Show me the video of young guns talking the talk but show me actual video of this in action more than the half a second shot
All its doing is selling absolute frustration.

hilly
WA, 4280 posts
4 Aug 2018 8:13PM
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Hmm interesting. Lots of posts here of guys going beyond that. Some negative territory. Mine are of a 55 year old weighing 105kg in his underwear on a 120l board. I could do 110 litres if I got clean conditions all the time. I do not, always windy. Maybe I am not hardcore enough for you.

Kami
1277 posts
5 Aug 2018 2:35AM
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Horses for courses.
Even if we are in a SUP forum we are still surfing with an help of the paddle. So if we speak about surfing, surfing waves with gusts mean the risk to fall down and lose the wave. So, my post here is to say whatever the size of the board chosen and the wave rode, the goal of it is to match the wave with a balance of means and inner satisfaction. There are no board sizes to fit that box because everyone gets his own box.
For example here 3D viewer and dims of the board I would surf at Margaret's at 63 and 79 kg to fit my own box ( without too much wind)
www.shape3d.com/Viewers/Viewer3D.aspx?Board=4810

micksmith
VIC, 1197 posts
5 Aug 2018 11:24AM
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Don't stress, it really doesn't matter what others are saying or doing. Surely people are able to work out what's best for them, you're always going to get those that are full of it and like to give advice even when not necessary. Most I'm sure are able to see through that, so take a chill pill people or take up another sport.

hilly
WA, 4280 posts
5 Aug 2018 10:54AM
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Select to expand quote
micksmith said..
Don't stress, it really doesn't matter what others are saying or doing. Surely people are able to work out what's best for them, you're always going to get those that are full of it and like to give advice even when not necessary. Most I'm sure are able to see through that, so take a chill pill people or take up another sport.


Well put

MickChard
VIC, 162 posts
6 Aug 2018 8:39AM
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Each to there own I say .. I love the challenge of riding low litre boards and the feeling of surfing them .. I also do it for the fitness and at 95 kegs riding my 112L smik is easy work .. 105L its where its hard but its literally like a totally diff board dropping down to that ratio .. Its fun I love pushing myself

colas
2749 posts
6 Aug 2018 1:08PM
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It also depends on the shape. Kami's board above is at +23 litres relative to his weight. With a wider nose, he would be as stable on a +5 / +10 liters... At 97/100 kg The board I use most is a 7'3" x 105 litres, but with a wide nose and a comfy main width of 29"3/4. It is much easier for me than a 125 liters board but with a pulled-in nose and 27" wide.

And it depends on the waves. On weak fat waves, a bit of extra volume helps a lot keeping speed in turns, taking off early, etc... On hollow powerful waves, low volume boards feel much safer on drops and in the pocket. Viva el Quiver!

But most importantly, I found out that it depends on the time on the water you can get. If you can only get wet on week ends, you will need extra volume.

Personally, my rule is that if you must sit on the board between sets, this is not SUPing anymore, and your board is too small to be enjoyable in the long run if you are not a pro. To say nothing of the mortal sin of knee-paddling :-)

djt91184
QLD, 1189 posts
6 Aug 2018 5:34PM
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I dont even use a board, just get up on the plane on my feet! It's much cheaper + exceptional fitness

Th0m0
QLD, 522 posts
6 Aug 2018 7:25PM
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Select to expand quote
colas said..

But most importantly, I found out that it depends on the time on the water you can get. If you can only get wet on week ends, you will need extra volume.




I agree 100% with Colas on that. Like any skill, the more you practice the better you get. If you want to surf low volume boards you have to be prepared to fall in a lot at first until your skill level improves and the best way to improve is surf more and fall in more. If you don't like falling in, no problem just use whatever volume/ shape your comfortable with. We all have our own personal comfort level so no point getting frustrated about someone else's volume.

Souwester
WA, 916 posts
6 Aug 2018 7:21PM
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Its all good I reckon, each to their own.

One of the things I have heard about some low volume boards that I find interesting is how people are amazed at how well they float and paddle for their size in comparison to another brand/model. A board that is the same volume from a different supplier is a pig and another one is awesome.

Same as the shortboard volume topic - same dimensions and volume - totally different board.

If you get frustrated by posts, videos etc.. on a topic you don't like, no one forces you to read it, just scroll past it and spend your time on something that looks more up your ally.

Tardy
2496 posts
6 Aug 2018 7:37PM
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I think a lot of it depends how you feel on the day ...having a few boards to choose from is a bonus .

if I've had a hard day at work and no energy ,I take the bigger board ...

if I feel like a 18 year old kid and jumping around full of beans ,the little one comes out .

Kami
1277 posts
6 Aug 2018 10:24PM
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Select to expand quote
colas said..
It also depends on the shape. Kami's board above is at +23 litres relative to his weight. With a wider nose, he would be as stable on a +5 / +10 liters... At 97/100 kg The board I use most is a 7'3" x 105 litres, but with a wide nose and a comfy main width of 29"3/4. It is much easier for me than a 125 liters board but with a pulled-in nose and 27" wide.

And it depends on the waves. On weak fat waves, a bit of extra volume helps a lot keeping speed in turns, taking off early, etc... On hollow powerful waves, low volume boards feel much safer on drops and in the pocket. Viva el Quiver!

But most importantly, I found out that it depends on the time on the water you can get. If you can only get wet on week ends, you will need extra volume.

Personally, my rule is that if you must sit on the board between sets, this is not SUPing anymore, and your board is too small to be enjoyable in the long run if you are not a pro. To say nothing of the mortal sin of knee-paddling :-)


I 've to say that this design above here is first to hold and drive the upper line in serious waves like Ulu's or GLand. I'm not looking first for a comfortable stability despite my next 64. ( expecting to not drown but this is another aspect )
That said, the total bottom surface of the board is one SUP physical parameter as much important than the volume and it would be interesting to consider the ratio between volume and surface.
Also, the volume distribution is the most important parameter of stability and its position around the widest part of the board determines the paddling ability and surfing aptitudes. As you can see from the diagram below the volume distribution is increasing from the tail to the nose and its center of gravity has its position just forward the wide point.





SunnyBouy
270 posts
7 Aug 2018 12:37AM
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(Don't stress, it really doesn't matter what others are saying or doing. Surely people are able to work out what's best for them, you're always going to get those that are full of it and like to give advice even when not necessary. Most I'm sure are able to see through that, so take a chill pill people or take up another sport.)

Hmm.. can't seem to quote...

I'd say this is pretty much it for me too...^^ that and what colas says.

I wouldn't worry too much, after all you are surfing for your own enjoyment aren't you.

If someone's on a sinker, let them... likewise if someone's on an iSUP..

It makes no difference to me what people ride as long as they enjoy it.

GizzieNZ
3716 posts
7 Aug 2018 8:27AM
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Oh.....I thought you meant "the concept of low volume boards getting old"......even very old
Give me a longer board that has more of a thinned out shape....but still low volume
Heavily addicted to my Laird surrator

pumpjockey02
202 posts
7 Aug 2018 9:50AM
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I live next to the beach for 6 months of the year and only know of one young gun, who rides a really short board, under the surface and he is constantly paddling out the back. He does not stop paddling the whole session. He lives across from the beach and paddles whenever he feels like it. Otherwise everyone is on a reasonable wide sized board for their weight. Foam I also think it depends on the beach make up, if your beach is moon shaped then the side chop, backwash is going to be killer.
So young legs and beach shape are big factors for me, I just ride a massive board though so I cant talk. The starboard Avanti, more a pontoon than surfboard shape..

micksmith
VIC, 1197 posts
7 Aug 2018 3:04PM
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Select to expand quote
djt91184 said..
I dont even use a board, just get up on the plane on my feet! It's much cheaper + exceptional fitness


Show us

surfinJ
397 posts
7 Aug 2018 2:21PM
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Bring on the sinkers, love em. They don't pollute the line up as they're mostly on their knees or otherwise kinda out of the wave rotation due to their lack of mobility. Except for the rare ripper, they seem to be a regular guy chasing an illusion, and with a very low if any wave count at that.

Foam
WA, 667 posts
7 Aug 2018 6:30PM
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Is there much of a difference between 3 or 6 litres between brands

Eg 113 in one brand Vs 116 in on other both performance board pulled in nose and tail, turned down rails.

hilly
WA, 4280 posts
7 Aug 2018 7:04PM
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Foam said..
Is there much of a difference between 3 or 6 litres between brands

Eg 113 in one brand Vs 116 in on other both performance board pulled in nose and tail, turned down rails.


Feels like a bit of a troll. Go paddle a few and make up your own mind. 3 litres if you can tell the difference you are a pro.

Foam
WA, 667 posts
8 Aug 2018 7:51AM
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You missed the question

colas
2749 posts
8 Aug 2018 1:00PM
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Foam said..
Is there much of a difference between 3 or 6 litres between brands

Eg 113 in one brand Vs 116 in on other both performance board pulled in nose and tail, turned down rails.


As I have said before, you cannot compare volumes between boards "on the paper". Each brand has different ways to measure (or rather, approximate - there is no simple equation to calculate voiume from the curves used in shaping softwares) volume, and this is on the pre-shaped blank. Then the backshape and laminating will change things.

So the 113 liters in brand X may be like 120 or 105 litres in the brand Y .

Plus of course, shape details will make a lot of difference on the water.

Foam
WA, 667 posts
8 Aug 2018 1:53PM
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Yes, that's why I asked, board A = 113
Board B = 116

Or even board c =.120

But all three may very well be the same float and stability

So my point is, if you want to ride a high performance board at min litres plus a few for gear
You have to take a punt and ride it
It may be right, may not be

But I was just pointing out as per the question, if a customer likes board A and B and C

All litres from 113 to 120 all three very well are simaler in float and stability
Even 100 to 120 but the 10 litres is a much bigger jump than 3 or 6

colas
2749 posts
8 Aug 2018 4:07PM
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Foam said..
So my point is, if you want to ride a high performance board at min litres plus a few for gear
You have to take a punt and ride it



It is just like for clothes, shoes, wetsuits...
Because you are a size X in one brand doesn't mean you will be the same size in another brand.
And clothes are very simple to measure, it is just a set of linear dimensions. Volumes of complex curved surfaces are much more difficult to measure in comparison.

So, just like for clothes, you should try a board of a brand, of very low volume (with the high volume you wont see the diffs) to see if this brand fits you big or small volume-wise. Then you know what their volume figure means.
Just like once you try a wetsuit, you have then an idea of what its size chart means for you.

Or try to get input from people having tested both a JP and Deep for their impressions.

This is only important when you get boards very close in volume to your weight. If at 70 kg you are looking at 120 liters boards for instance, you can ignore the volume variations between brands.

For your specific case, I would check more the widths, one foot off widths, and rail volume rather than fret on the actual number of liters.

Kami
1277 posts
8 Aug 2018 4:15PM
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I do not agree with you saying that 3 or more liters is making any difference because 3 liters in the tail does make the nose sinking of 3 liters less . By the way 3 becomes 6.
About designing soft ware as a pro user of shape3d I can tell that scheduling of volume is very accurate past the fourth decimal!!!. More than the precision scheduling, it is able to do different volumes from the same file without changing its shape.
Shaping is as much addictive as surfing itself so sorry if I'm showing some passion in my comment.

colas
2749 posts
8 Aug 2018 5:04PM
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Kami said..
as a pro user of shape3d





You just see that shape3d is giving you 4 decimals. You have no idea if they are anywhere close to the actual volume.

And as a pro programmer and having math diploma, I can tell you that 1) the problem is mathematically hard 2) programmers are lazy and not good at maths :-)
So I do not know how shape3d computes the volume, but I would bet it is via some heuristics (that is, an approximative guess).

However, you can trust the differences: if you change something in the shape and shape3d gives you 0.3257 liters more, you can rely on this figure, as you will be comparing two numbers but computed with the same method. And - for instance - a 10% error margin is negligible on these small differences compared to the ones on the whole volume.

Kami
1277 posts
8 Aug 2018 6:37PM
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Select to expand quote
colas said..


Kami said..
as a pro user of shape3d







You just see that shape3d is giving you 4 decimals. You have no idea if they are anywhere close to the actual volume.

And as a pro programmer and having math diploma, I can tell you that 1) the problem is mathematically hard 2) programmers are lazy and not good at maths :-)
So I do not know how shape3d computes the volume, but I would bet it is via some heuristics (that is, an approximative guess).

However, you can trust the differences: if you change something in the shape and shape3d gives you 0.3257 liters more, you can rely on this figure, as you will be comparing two numbers but computed with the same method. And - for instance - a 10% error margin is negligible on these small differences compared to the ones on the whole volume.



Out of math but with a bit of physic there is just an easy way to control the volume of the shaped plug is to weight it and work it with the volumic mass of the EPS. Apparently, Volume found matches with the one from the file drawn.
But I will do an exercise with Shape3D by drawing one sphere with a known radius to know if there is any difference between the math result = (4pi/3) multiplied by R3 and the given volume from Shape3D program... I will let you know later on.

Kami
1277 posts
8 Aug 2018 8:24PM
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Foam said..
All this carry on is getting frustrating, I mean let's not forget 99percent of punters here are in real world surf conditions.

Sure some ride below there limit and that's great
But it gets frustrating when talking to new suppers and they say that guy is 90kg...and he said he rides 100 litres

Hmm yes maybe so but go back and ask how long was your session and when was the last day you were able to use that board

I mean come on.. Show me the video of young guns talking the talk but show me actual video of this in action more than the half a second shot
All its doing is selling absolute frustration.



Most of us are focusing on volume and Foam 's topic is quite interesting about it. I would like to remain about the real purpose to have low liter which is to be able to dig the rail from nose to tail or to press your back foot on a tail at dims as close as a shortboard one can be.
In that way, it means to sacrificed stability.

Foam
WA, 667 posts
8 Aug 2018 8:47PM
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Yes, to the point your up to your shins in water trying to balance to the point passing out.
Prone paddle out, sit on board stand only when trying to catch a wave is this not just prone surfing

Reality is at the ridiculous low litres it's more a how many times do I have to climb back up today

But with so much unknown if actual litres stated on boards is the correct litres it makes me think the 100 litre board is in fact 110 you just don't know it.

there is actually any noticeable difference in 112 vs 116 as a example

So a 90kg can ride 100 litres if you wish to put yourself through the torment

But if board litres are not all that correct... Well that's a game changer

And a bag of worms

supthecreek
1562 posts
8 Aug 2018 11:18PM
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everyone has the freedom to chase whatever dream suits them, I like to try all boards

The "volume/shape" discussion is interesting and helpful.

SO.... how much difference does a few liters make?

I love the math, but I really need "hands on" to put a face on the numbers.

I research and test every board I can get my hands on.
I don my "Kook Hat Cam" and jump on.
the cam catches my unscripted comments as I test, so I can refer back to the video later. (like I did for this reply)

This day, I went to try my buddy's new 8'6 x 29.5 at 112 L to see if I could stand on it, on very flat-water.
Mr Big joined us with his 8'2 x 32" wide at 109 L.... so we had a 3 way test, before we enjoyed a nice paddle session.

Exact weight as I left the house = 109 kg (digital scale)
Age = 69 yo at the time last fall.
I always included age... because it is the "X" factor in any balance discussion.

I have to work hard, on all boards under 30" wide,
so I would have bet anything that the 32" wide board would have been noticeably easier.
Wrong.
I never stood on it..... it just sank to the bottom.
No way I was capable of paddling that wide board at my exact float volume.

We were ALL shocked at how easy I found the narrower board.... which was 5 tiny liters more plus 4" longer.
BUT... it had a pulled in nose and tail with thin rails (pro model)
Maybe the extra length allowed me to keep the nose up and get to paddle speed.
whatever it was... it surprised all of us. Listening to the comments of my friends, showed they were as shocked as me.

I never published the video but learned a lot, which helps me answer balance/volume/width questions.







Foam
WA, 667 posts
9 Aug 2018 8:02AM
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Which is why sup litres is total Bull****
Any litres stated is almost always way off or can be according to others so this may very well be why supthecreek can float at his weight on the smaller board and litres it's 112 litres is not correct
It's all become a load of **** to me and can't trust any shapes or manufacturers remarks
Sup has turn a horrible corner where riders have no idea what litres they are buying

So it's a 2k demo in most cases

Foam
WA, 667 posts
9 Aug 2018 8:03AM
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Also that board you are testing is not a pulled in nose or tail



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"Low litres getting old" started by Foam