Here is my equipment, Goya Bolt 135 slalom board, Aerotech Freespeed 8.0 sail rigged on a 490 mast versus softer 460 (7.2 has worked in past, but currently needs repair, so did not use in this test), AFS W95 foil with F1080 wing and 1 AFS shim under front stab. screw, Sailworks Quiktune harness lines.

For 10.0+ knot gusts
Occasional whitecaps, gusts visibly ripple the water, easy to see coming, Slogging unhooked.
Learned from Andy Brandt
23.5" harness lines set forward on boom (front strap 4 marks down boom) so the line takes the place of the front hand/arm, use back arm to sheet in/out as needed.
Pump up with sail while leaning out, sometimes add foil at middle, heading crosswind. Initially front foot forward of foot strap, then once planing step back to lift board.
Once up, hook in and pull sail over and lean out and forward, Head upwind for speed and to setup for a gybe

For 8.0-9.8 knot gusts
No whitecaps (of course), and can barely tell when a gust is coming, sometimes cannot easily tell visually (use polarized sunglasses), slogging hooked in with weight on line.
36" harness lines, let out to stop knot, so all the way out, set forward on boom (front strap 4 marks down boom) so the line takes the place of the front hand/arm, use back arm to sheet in/out as needed.
Need to use back hand to put line in hook when on the water slogging, because tubing curls (from memory at 23.5") and kinks the line.
Pump up using both sail and foil in unison while leaning out, heading slightly downwind. Initially front foot in front of foot strap. Once planing step back to lift while still pumping mostly the sail.
Once up, lean out keeping weight on harness line, with sail fairly vertical, head slightly downwind.

If I use the 23.5" lines in 8-9 knots, as soon as I hook in and pull sail over sail depowers and board comes down, if I do not hook in and then head upwind sail also depowers and board comes down.

So for me, the key to getting up and foiling in 8-9 knots is using long lines which keep the sail more vertical, and heading slightly downwind while pumping up and foiling. Big difference for me from 10.0+ knots technique.

Paducah, to each their own, though in 15-20 knots you could get away with a lot of different techniques!

Now I did learn the short harness line/sail pulled over/head upwind fast technique from Andy Brandt, as have many others!

And of course, with short lines set forward on boom (front strap 4 marks back from front of boom marks) the line takes the place of the front hand/arm, then use back arm to sheet in/out as needed. So front arm gets a rest every run, and can be bent since it is not holding the sail pressure, the line and hook are. What that does is give your back arm more "range" to sheet the sail in/out because the pivot point is farther forward, versus your balanced arm position where the pivot point is farther back. That increased sheeting range means for me faster upwind speeds, and better ability to let a gust pass instead of getting caught and foiling out.

The biggest plus for me with Andy's technique is that I no longer get chronic soreness in my arms, because my front arm gets a rest every run. It is nice to not need or use Tylenol.

Short lines forward is how many beginners feel comfortable foiling. Once they get passed the very early stages they go much longer and move them back biased towards the rear hand. This is far more efficient in all conditions and what you see IQfoil/PWA as well as good freeride foilers doing.

azymuth said..

Sandman1221 said..
Paducah, to each their own, though in 15-20 knots you could get away with a lot of different techniques!

Now I did learn the short harness line/sail pulled over/head upwind fast technique from Andy Brandt, as have many others!

And of course, with short lines set forward on boom (front strap 4 marks back from front of boom marks) the line takes the place of the front hand/arm, then use back arm to sheet in/out as needed. So front arm gets a rest every run, and can be bent since it is not holding the sail pressure, the line and hook are. What that does is give your back arm more "range" to sheet the sail in/out because the pivot point is farther forward, versus your balanced arm position where the pivot point is farther back. That increased sheeting range means for me faster upwind speeds, and better ability to let a gust pass instead of getting caught and foiling out.

The biggest plus for me with Andy's technique is that I no longer get chronic soreness in my arms, because my front arm gets a rest every run. It is nice to not need or use Tylenol.

I can't picture how this is working to get you fast upwind, how are you loading up the sail - have you got a video to share?

Sounds reverse of of a balanced set up, like a bit of front hand pressure to load up mast base in order to keep the power on... each to there own.

Grantmac said..
Short lines forward is how many beginners feel comfortable foiling. Once they get passed the very early stages they go much longer and move them back biased towards the rear hand. This is far more efficient in all conditions and what you see IQfoil/PWA as well as good freeride foilers doing.

Short lines forward with a forward stance heading upwind are for advanced foilers IMO, because you go fast! Tintingwen has very good technique IMO, and he uses some of the best equipment too, and has a similar line position and stance.

Lots of different ways to do things. Andy tried to sell me on the short lines thing. It must serve some purpose, but my guess is that is more getting windsurfers learning to Windfoil forward and off the back foot? Once that habit has been broken i think there is more advantage in longer lines, the primary one being able to sheet out without losing MFP.

Sounds like sandman was just pointing out the relative pros of longer lines in light air. Whereas most of us feel those pros extend through all wind ranges.

Sand are you pumping hooked in or out?

thedoor said..
Lots of different ways to do things. Andy tried to sell me on the short lines thing. It must serve some purpose, but my guess is that is more getting windsurfers learning to Windfoil forward and off the back foot? Once that habit has been broken i think there is more advantage in longer lines, the primary one being able to sheet out without losing MFP.

Sounds like sandman was just pointing out the relative pros of longer lines in light air. Whereas most of us feel those pros extend through all wind ranges.

Sand are you pumping hooked in or out?

Good question thedoor, I pump hooked-in in 8-9 knot gusts with the long lines, and I think that helps me get up because it influences my pumping position. In 10-11 knots with short lines I usually pump unhooked because I am slogging waiting for the gust and the wind pressure is not enough to support me when hooked-in with short lines because I pull the sail over. But somewhere in the 12-14 knot gust range, the lulls are usually strong enough to support me hooked-in with short lines, so then I pump hooked-in.

When hooked-in with 23.5" lines, I can not slog, so if I am in 10-11 knot gusts and am coming down need to unhook before landing on the water, otherwise will be hanging from boom and fall in.

And if in 12-14+ knots and slogging hooked-in, need to pay attention to wind pressure on sail, so as not to get trapped if a lull drops too low.

www.severnesails.com/balz-muller-and-the-world-of-foiling/

Sandman1221 said..

Short lines forward with a forward stance heading upwind are for advanced foilers IMO, because you go fast! Tintingwen has very good technique IMO, and he uses some of the best equipment too, and has a similar line position and stance.

What you write is confusing.
Recently you said you were learning to foil gybe and now you say you're an advanced foiler - how does that work?

I think anyone offering endless technique advice should at some point post a vid so we can judge their foiling level - to establish credibility.

azymuth said..

Sandman1221 said..

Short lines forward with a forward stance heading upwind are for advanced foilers IMO, because you go fast! Tintingwen has very good technique IMO, and he uses some of the best equipment too, and has a similar line position and stance.

What you write is confusing.
Recently you said you were learning to foil gybe and now you say you're an advanced foiler - how does that work?

I think anyone offering endless technique advice should at some point post a vid so we can judge their foiling level - to establish credibility.

If you are not interested in it, or think I am not a credible source of information, do not read it! Or hide my posts! I am not making you read my posts

Grantmac said..

Sandman1221 said..

Grantmac said..
If you can pump effectively hooked in, regardless of line length, then it's much windier than 8-9kts.
To get foiling in under 10kts requires full body commitment which simply isn't possible while hooked in.

It is with a slalom board, 36" lines, while moving body/hips in unison with the pumping of the sail! Every time I load up the pressure on the sail I can lean out and get my weight off the board and over the water, the more you I do that, the lighter the wind I can get up in.

Yeah that's not happening in the wind ranges you describe, sorry it's just not. Unless you are quoting the wind speed between significant gusts.
Look up how good foilers pump large sails in low wind. Not gonna happen hooked in.

Hey, if you are jealous, I can understand!, cause it was amazing to me that I could get up and have long runs in those conditions.

But to everyone else, being hooked in with the 36" lines on a seat harness was the key part to getting me up. And I think that is because being hooked-in helped me to lean out over the water when the sail was loaded with wind pressure. Need to get your weight out over the water and off the board/foil to get up in light winds or with smaller sails, that I also learned from Andy Brandt.

Sandman1221 said..If you are not interested in it, or think I am not a credible source of information, do not read it! Or hide my posts! I am not making you read my posts

I can't tell if you're credible

Generally, I think beginners advising beginners is fine. Everyone understands the limitations.
Beginners who pretend they're advanced, advising beginners can be problematic.

So how fast are you foiling upwind with your advanced technique and in what sea conditions?

Sandman1221 said..
For everyone, Andy the owner of Wind-NC, until recently, once told me you need to get 10 mph (8.6 knots) forward speed to foil, so according to that in 8-9 knots you do not need much additional speed to get up. I never asked him where he got that number from, but he seemed very certain of it, and he was an avid foiler with access to many different foils.

Of the 3 boards that I've foiled regularly and the 5 or so front wings, the board speed tops out at around 3.8-4.1 knots measured by a glance at my GPS watch. If I get to that board speed without pumping I know that I can get on foil, regardless of sail or wing size, but the <900cm2 wings are a lot of work. I've completely changed my pumping technique to take the work out of irritating my biceps tendon, and can pump a lot longer now, but Balz and the rest and many local foilers here put me to shame on smaller gear. Everyone I know uses balanced lines. I have even shimmied them in flight to correct them because the unbalanced feeling is noticeably more work vs just using more hips to trim.

The phantasm 926 which is closer to your larger afs and i76 do fly around 8knots board speed or so, but full body or out of harness pumping is required to get there unless it's almost planing wind speed. The small race foils like the 650 get a nice semi plane with a 9.0 in 15 knots of wind, maybe a little less or so but even then they need to be urged up actively.

I have on very flat water pumped the sail up to the hull speed and onto foil but not on my flat freeks. It really requires good timing and coordination on a cammed sail to keep the momentum up. I've gotten the uncammed sails flying but they lose their belly immediately in light stuff, but I think that could be remedied by stealing Balz's brain. It would behoove you to measure speed or record anything in some reliable way, as I've often found what I think I'm doing vs the measured result is totally different.

Hey guys, I stated the freeride equipment and forward line position, then you said forward lines do not work and referenced race equipment!

And aero, you can't do it because you are so busy trying different equipment you never learned to master one kit. And really, why is it you get on my posts and say it can't be done with race equipment when I am talking about freeride equipment? Second time you have done this! Please make a note to yourself ("read the original post and note the type of equipment being used!").

So when you master a kit, then you can get some remarkable results! That is why I posted this, so to all the others reading this post, and not saying it can not be done, give it a try. I tried to be pretty specific in terms of technique.

But note, it does take sustained sail/foil pumping to get up in 8-9 knots, and once the board is off the water you need to continue the pumping for a bit before reaching the critical speed to foil without the assist provided by pumping, and it is not easy to feel when to stop pumping, so I slowly back off/taper the effort (and range of movement) I put into pumping until it is not needed. So yes it is an intense but relatively short workout, and if you have a 1/2 mile or longer run it is okay IMO, but for at least a few of posters here it appears it is way too much effort, making my results impossible for them to achieve.

I have pumped the sail/foil to get up on the foil in these same conditions many times in the past, only to fall back to the water because I stopped pumping once up in the air, and because I was heading crosswind. With 8-9 knot gusts, you need to get up and foiling in the gust asap, before it passes you by. The light gusts are just not that deep where I am.

Sandman1221 said..
Hey guys, I stated the freeride equipment and forward line position, then you said forward lines do not work and referenced race equipment!

I referenced the video you posted.

Went for a 3.5 hour free sail today on a 5.4. If the lines weren't set balanced, the day would have been a PITA since I was doing 1 km long upwind legs. Racers do it because it's efficient. Freeriders do it so they can save their arms for the sleigh ride downwind. But, both do it.

Me (not today) on balanced 26.5 inch lines, 5.4 and the unrideable wing for smaller sails, AFS F800/1080.

Paducah said..

Sandman1221 said..
Hey guys, I stated the freeride equipment and forward line position, then you said forward lines do not work and referenced race equipment!

I referenced the video you posted.

Went for a 3.5 hour free sail today on a 5.4. If the lines weren't set balanced, the day would have been a PITA since I was doing 1 km long upwind legs. Racers do it because it's efficient. Freeriders do it so they can save their arms for the sleigh ride downwind. But, both do it.

Me (not today) on balanced 26.5 inch lines, 5.4 and the unrideable wing for smaller sails, AFS F800/1080.

Yeah, that is a nice gybe!

But the topic is about getting up in 8-9 knots with sail and foil pumping!!, that really has nothing to do with line placement until you get up on the foil and stop pumping. In strong winds just about anything works, it is the marginal winds that are tricky.