my very first ka freerace sail had wild winds written on it. a large quantity or flouro pink and yellow and holes in the narrow mast sleeve where you could add or remove cams after the sail was rigged.

Mediocre recreational sailor here...just my personal experiences. I've been through the "no cam to cam sail" circle twice around. Here's my thoughts on some of the things mentioned.

Cammed sails provide 5-10% performance gain:
This is true if you're sailing in consistent wind that doesn't vary much in strength, say lulls to gusts 16-20knts, 18 average. If it's say 13-23knts, still 18 average, cammed sails start to clearly come out on top. The stability during large fluctuations in wind do allow you to sail noticeably faster and more comfortable.

Cammed sails have better low end:
They certainly have the top end. Lower end/light wind, I'm not convinced.
Non cam is lighter in the hands, and I find it easier to pump/manoeuvre. Non cam feels nicer to sail in light winds for me, esp non planing.

Cammed sails are harder to gybe:
If it's windy, I don't think so. When the sail is filled with strong wind, cams rotate easily, no special technique is necessary.
In light winds, non planing gybes, cams are surely harder. They will require a decent pump to rotate and settle, not good when the gybe itself is complicated enough to master.

Cammed sails are harder to water start:
They are harder. If the sail falls in the water, quickly lift it out or put the board under the sail to minimise water entering the luff sleeve.
This has been a major problem once for me. I dropped a 7m cammed sail and decided to take a rest. I was tired, forgot about it and allowed it to sink. Water start was now out of question due to water weight. It took every bit of skill/strength I had to pull the sail out of the water using the uphaul on the small board. Can be a real issue if you're worn out due to long time out on the water.

2 cam vs 3 cam vs 4 cam - rigging and handling:
If I'm going to have to have cams, I may as well have the works. Some no cam sails of mine take just as long to rig due to narrow sleeve. Rigging cammed sails can be a nightmare if you've never done it before and there's no help around. The all seem to have a special sequence/technique. Once mastered it's no issue, but be patient, it takes a while, and they are all different. My personal experience has been that a 2/3 cam had no distinct rigging or ease of handling advantages for me.

Sputnik11 said..

gregob said..

Sputnik11 said..

Looking for a good freerace sail. Basically I am looking for something fast, no cams. I want to plug a hole in the 5.4 to 5.7 range.

I am happy to consider two cams, but think for the type of sailing I do, the no cam option would be better.

What have people got, what do they like?

Even better, anyone have one for sale?

A hole?

I'm not offering advice as I'm only a relatively inexperienced sailor, just making observation that you must be very tuned in to your gear and the conditions to need 3 sails so close together.

I only identify 3 wind ranges that I swap sails in and out of. Low - around 15kts, med around 20+ kts, and holy crap - which is usually how I feel above 25kts. I have 4.5, 5.3, 5.7, 6.5, 7, 7.7 .

The sail I choose is usually based on what I think I will need to get planing in Lulls but I am pretty lazy and will persevere with a sail that is a either bit over / under powered. When the wind is around 25Kts+ I could use 4.5, 5.3 , 5.7 and not notice a lot of difference but I don't use GPS or race so it's just my feeling of comfort in those conditions.

Sorry Greg - wasn't clear enough. I have a 5.5 that needs replacing and I want to replace it with something between 5.4 and 5.7.

Phew!!!

I don't feel like such a sailing Neanderthal now

I think the killer for most cammed sails in light winds is the weight. to get around the impact the weight has you need to rig bigger.

years ago I did some a/b comparisons with the sailworks no cam race sails and ka formula sails to figure out which would work better in light winds.

I found that the no cam sail beat the cammed sail off the mark everytime. but as soon as I was planning along comfortably the cam sail was the winner. same in lulls. the cam sail kept going.

GusTee said..

Mediocre recreational sailor here...just my personal experiences. I've been through the "no cam to cam sail" circle twice around. Here's my thoughts on some of the things mentioned.

Cammed sails provide 5-10% performance gain:
This is true if you're sailing in consistent wind that doesn't vary much in strength, say lulls to gusts 16-20knts, 18 average. If it's say 13-23knts, still 18 average, cammed sails start to clearly come out on top. The stability during large fluctuations in wind do allow you to sail noticeably faster and more comfortable.

Cammed sails have better low end:
They certainly have the top end. Lower end/light wind, I'm not convinced.
Non cam is lighter in the hands, and I find it easier to pump/manoeuvre. Non cam feels nicer to sail in light winds for me, esp non planing.

Cammed sails are harder to gybe:
If it's windy, I don't think so. When the sail is filled with strong wind, cams rotate easily, no special technique is necessary.
In light winds, non planing gybes, cams are surely harder. They will require a decent pump to rotate and settle, not good when the gybe itself is complicated enough to master.

Cammed sails are harder to water start:
They are harder. If the sail falls in the water, quickly lift it out or put the board under the sail to minimise water entering the luff sleeve.
This has been a major problem once for me. I dropped a 7m cammed sail and decided to take a rest. I was tired, forgot about it and allowed it to sink. Water start was now out of question due to water weight. It took every bit of skill/strength I had to pull the sail out of the water using the uphaul on the small board. Can be a real issue if you're worn out due to long time out on the water.

2 cam vs 3 cam vs 4 cam - rigging and handling:
If I'm going to have to have cams, I may as well have the works. Some no cam sails of mine take just as long to rig due to narrow sleeve. Rigging cammed sails can be a nightmare if you've never done it before and there's no help around. The all seem to have a special sequence/technique. Once mastered it's no issue, but be patient, it takes a while, and they are all different. My personal experience has been that a 2/3 cam had no distinct rigging or ease of handling advantages for me.

JonesySail said..

Ezzy Cheetah:
Way better build quality than the Hellcat and way more range, much more bottom end, handle bucket loads of wind, I would say they actually feel better overpowered than under.
Heaps easier to rig, whoever signed off on the mast sleeve size on the Hellcat needs a new tape measure unless they were using the new 'skinny skinny' mast that is yet to be released! I could literally see the NP falling apart n after just a couple of months use, the Cheetah will do years of service, no monfilm makes it way more durable. I have owned and used both sails spent plenty of time on the water with both and with manufacturers masts so a pretty fair assessment...
Ezzy have a much more 'alive' feeling also, they tend to absorb big gusts, I think they are easier on your arms as they tend to be more forgiving and have a more constant pull feel. If you like twitchy on/off power then the NP will feel better, I haven't sailed the Severne, so no comment.

What year model hellcat dud you use. If it's pre 2013 then I'd agree with you.

I Don't find the hellcat twitchy, it's a direct locked in feel.

I had an earlier model previously and didn't like it. To get power you needed to lose the top end. The 2013 has bucket loads of power, the other day I rigged it on a 400 just to lose some power.

Waiting4wind said..

JonesySail said..

Ezzy Cheetah:
Way better build quality than the Hellcat and way more range, much more bottom end, handle bucket loads of wind, I would say they actually feel better overpowered than under.
Heaps easier to rig, whoever signed off on the mast sleeve size on the Hellcat needs a new tape measure unless they were using the new 'skinny skinny' mast that is yet to be released! I could literally see the NP falling apart n after just a couple of months use, the Cheetah will do years of service, no monfilm makes it way more durable. I have owned and used both sails spent plenty of time on the water with both and with manufacturers masts so a pretty fair assessment...
Ezzy have a much more 'alive' feeling also, they tend to absorb big gusts, I think they are easier on your arms as they tend to be more forgiving and have a more constant pull feel. If you like twitchy on/off power then the NP will feel better, I haven't sailed the Severne, so no comment.

What year model hellcat dud you use. If it's pre 2013 then I'd agree with you.

I Don't find the hellcat twitchy, it's a direct locked in feel.

I had an earlier model previously and didn't like it. To get power you needed to lose the top end. The 2013 has bucket loads of power, the other day I rigged it on a 400 just to lose some power.

There you go , think it was a 2012,

JonesySail said..

[
There you go , think it was a 2012,

Why do they do that? The early model Hellcats suited me fine, based on that I bought another one. But in 2012 they reduced the number of battens, amongst other things, completely changed the nature of the sail. Maybe they reverted to the original genre in 2013, I don't know, it was the last NP sail I've ever bought. If they change the nature of a product they should also change the name. The other one to burn me was a second hand Tabou Rocket. The '07 Rocket is nothing like the '08 Rocket. In '08 they should have renamed it the Sprocket or something. (a good reason for sellers to get the year right in the classifieds.)

JonesySail said..

Didn't Bruce Pederson (hope I have the name right?) aka Mr Sailworks USA win an American Pro series or 2 of Slalom/races on Sailworks no cam sails?

When Bruce Peterson was promoting the Retro years ago (iirc) he said it was totally race worthy. Compared to a CI sail it lost a bit upwind but worked a bit better off the wind. I don't know why it would be better off the wind but in any case for speed sailing getting up the course is a chore but getting up the course is not the point of the exercise. If camless go just as well as CI sails off the wind then they should be just as good for speed sailing. You don't see them at Luderitz though.

As a non racer without a lot of experience sailing on the bleeding edge of control (without crashing) it nevertheless seems to me that that's where CI sails shine. They are graceful when overpowered so you can rig a bit bigger and still survive.

sboardcrazy said..

Ian K said..

JonesySail said..

[
There you go , think it was a 2012,

Why do they do that? The early model Hellcats suited me fine, based on that I bought another one. But in 2012 they reduced the number of battens, amongst other things, completely changed the nature of the sail. Maybe they reverted to the original genre in 2013, I don't know, it was the last NP sail I've ever bought. If they change the nature of a product they should also change the name. The other one to burn me was a second hand Tabou Rocket. The '07 Rocket is nothing like the '08 Rocket. In '08 they should have renamed it the Sprocket or something. (a good reason for sellers to get the year right in the classifieds.)

How do the rockets differ? I have 2008 ones..

The 2008 rockets are great, they have the deep double concaves. The 2007 rocket just has a bit of V and is the hardest riding board in chop I've ever been on. In 2007 Tabou must have decided they had to do something to fix that up for 2008. Trouble is, after completely redoing the hull, there was no money left over to change the colour scheme, hence my mistake when picking up another after my first one got a bit tired. .

Garage sale is on at SHQ this weekend so might be something appropriate there.

JonesySail said..

Having said that, drop a big race sail in the ocean, let the luff fill with water...have fun getting that sucker up!

That's called a session ender. It's all fun and games until you drop it awkwardly, out the back of the ocean, and you're not wearing a buoyancy vest