Hi guys,
I am looking for gear guidance and would like to apologise if that topic has been already discussed on the forum - I am new here:)

Let's get to the point. I am a wave sailor from north of Europe (Klitmoller, Sylt, Baltic Sea etc). I am looking for a sail for on-shore to side-shore, gusty conditions in the range of 3,7-4,2 (for 25-30 knots plus). I am interested in Goyas and Ezzys. My main question is - how does Fringe or Taka feel in such conditions? On the one hand, I would love to take advantage of their maneuverability and lightness on waves, but on the other hand maybe the likes of Banzai or even Zeta would guarantee me better "overall" performance (quick plaining, getting through white water with more ease, stability etc). To sum up, how do these 3 and 4-batten sails perform in heavy, onshore conditions? Are they only suited to pure dtl waveriding?

All the very best and see you on the water:)

# of battens don't matter because you choose the sail based on your power needs.
3 batten sails work better in lighter wind PER SIZE, so you'd choose a 3 batten 4.5 when you need a 5 batten 5.0.

Don't wanna be that guy but the severne blade pro is screaming at you.

Sylt, I ve sailed in the North Sea off England, brrrrr.
FWIW, the Taka is my weapon of choice , over the Elite. I do really feel personal preference is the defining regard.
FWIW, on a Hot Sails I prefer the 4 batten QU4D , over the 3 batten,KS3,
point its not the battens .
write :
david @ ezzy.com

NordRoi said..
...As LeeD pointed out, you need less sail for the same wind! Quite a margin actually...

That has been mentioned several times in this topic. Could anyone be so kind to explain it to me from the technical point of view? Up untill recently I thought exactly the opposite:))) Now I understand I could take a 3,7 3-batten sail instead of, say, 4,2 4-5 batten.

...and to answer your original question, I would think the Banzai would better suit the conditions. If you're lighter weight, the Fringe could also go alright.

OnShoreLover said..

NordRoi said..
...As LeeD pointed out, you need less sail for the same wind! Quite a margin actually...

That has been mentioned several times in this topic. Could anyone be so kind to explain it to me from the technical point of view? Up untill recently I thought exactly the opposite:))) Now I understand I could take a 3,7 3-batten sail instead of, say, 4,2 4-5 batten.

I don't think you can make blanket statements about batten count. Each brand has a different approach. For instance the Goya fringe is a much different sail to the Hotsails KS3 or the Ezzy Taka. Since Obenebo give his experience Fringe vs Banzai it is probably accurate & reflects Goya's concept, Bigdaz & Nordroi's experience with Ezzy show they have a different approach & I can say from experience Hotsails have another. IMO most of these new wavesails have enough versatility that any of them will work for a variety of conditions but it will come down to feel & preference. Coming from the HSM KS3 I can say that the sail has just as much range as the 5 batten sail, & is actually more firm & precise than one of the 4 batten sails so not what you might think. It is more a matter of draft positioning & the type of power delivery you want when choosing in the HSM range, so you may have similar finding with Ezzy/Goya. That said dedicated onshore rider do tend to have certain preferences, for instance HSM has the PW4 which is a 4 batten that carries power a bit higher up than the KS3 & has less de-power so many onshore guys choose that over the 3 batten KS or the 5 batten Firelight.

The Taka is so stable that resembles a 5 batten sail I cant understand how they achieved this but it works excellent in the lows and great in the high range It has excellent acceleration unbelievable maneuverability and it feels light The force is to the front great for jumps waveriding I believe it s an excellent choice from 4.5 and above even for onshore .In comparison to the membrane sails it has a clear advantage in gusty cond The only downside IMO is that in light moderate winds you need more power in onshore waveriding the taka due to its nature depowers more. The ezzy wave seems the best choice for onshore from other testimonial (havent tried) and off course 5 batten sails like blade blade pro or other membrane sails.

If I can just stick a few extra comments in here:

1) Some sails are more powerful than others. But it's a mistake to assume that sail power is a simple function of batten numbers.

2) Battens add stability to the sail and rigidity. The stability comes from the sail cloth being less able to distort and the taper in the batten encourages the sail drive to stay more locked forward.

3) The power of any sail is mostly a function of sail area, sail fullness, and how tight the leech sets. If the sail is twisted open at the head then this part of the sail is effectively sheeted out. That open leech works well for speed and control but is not as gutsy a setting as you get with a tighter leech sail. A flatter sail will also feel less powerful than a full cut sail. (Ezzy Takas are cut very full!).

4) Because of the above, batten numbers often change the feel of the sail. Different 'feels' suit different sailing needs and are also a matter for personal preference. A 'soft sail', where there is no full length middle batten, allows the sail to depower better at the luff when feathered.

5) In lighter winds, the rig is not under heavy loads and so fewer battens are needed, whereas when you're hanging off a 4.7 then stability and top end are more needed, so extra battens are one answer. This may seem counter-intuitive because bigger sails often have more battens - but there's a big difference between being a slalom and speed sailor from being a recreational sailor who just wants to plane in and out.

Basher said..
If I can just stick a few extra comments in here:

1) Some sails are more powerful than others. But it's a mistake to assume that sail power is a simple function of batten numbers.

2) Battens add stability to the sail and rigidity. The stability comes from the sail cloth being less able to distort and the taper in the batten encourages the sail drive to stay more locked forward.

3) The power of any sail is mostly a function of sail area, sail fullness, and how tight the leech sets. If the sail is twisted open at the head then this part of the sail is effectively sheeted out. That open leech works well for speed and control but is not as gutsy a setting as you get with a tighter leech sail. A flatter sail will also feel less powerful than a full cut sail. (Ezzy Takas are cut very full!).

4) Because of the above, batten numbers often change the feel of the sail. Different 'feels' suit different sailing needs and are also a matter for personal preference. A 'soft sail', where there is no full length middle batten, allows the sail to depower better at the luff when feathered.

5) In lighter winds, the rig is not under heavy loads and so fewer battens are needed, whereas when you're hanging off a 4.7 then stability and top end are more needed, so extra battens are one answer. This may seem counter-intuitive because bigger sails often have more battens - but there's a big difference between being a slalom and speed sailor from being a recreational sailor who just wants to plane in and out.

I agree, with your statement.

I wonder if by nature, less batten tend to provide more low end, can you take a 5.0 with 0 batten and make it less than a 5.0 with 8 batten?

If a 5.0 with 3 battens sail got less low end than the same brand with 4 or 5 battens, what is the purpose of that sail? If you sacrifice stability, than I assume it's to have the smallest sail in your hand for the same wind speed?

I also assume the goal of the zeta is to have the biggest sail in your hand and go super fast and have a big high end.

OnShoreLover said..

NordRoi said..
...As LeeD pointed out, you need less sail for the same wind! Quite a margin actually...

That has been mentioned several times in this topic. Could anyone be so kind to explain it to me from the technical point of view? Up untill recently I thought exactly the opposite:))) Now I understand I could take a 3,7 3-batten sail instead of, say, 4,2 4-5 batten.

As other have said it really depends on the brand and the sail. My experience when it comes to 2-3 years old sails is with Hot Sails Maui. I owned a 2017 5.0 Quad (bought in 2018), 2019 5.0 Firelight, and 4.9/4.3 KS3. The Quad was by far the worst when it came to high end stability. The leading edge simply got back winded, very disconcerning. It was probably an early model and probably got better. The Firelight, five batten, was fine, no problem sailing overpowered, although it lacked some of the low end that my older firelights had plenty of. And the KS3 ... was the best. It has great low end, and stability when overpowered, and it feels feather light. Go figure why it would be the most stable of them all, but there it is.

The KS3 can also be feathered out very effectively. Open the boom and the S-shaped bottom battens releases a significan amount of wind pressure. You can keep going in bizarrely overpowered conditions . Having said that I am curious to try a 5 batten Point-7 Spy ... I kind of miss the simplicity of a lock down and go sail and it might be better for foiling ...

gorgesailor said..

NordRoi said..

Basher said..
If I can just stick a few extra comments in here:

1) Some sails are more powerful than others. But it's a mistake to assume that sail power is a simple function of batten numbers.

2) Battens add stability to the sail and rigidity. The stability comes from the sail cloth being less able to distort and the taper in the batten encourages the sail drive to stay more locked forward.

3) The power of any sail is mostly a function of sail area, sail fullness, and how tight the leech sets. If the sail is twisted open at the head then this part of the sail is effectively sheeted out. That open leech works well for speed and control but is not as gutsy a setting as you get with a tighter leech sail. A flatter sail will also feel less powerful than a full cut sail. (Ezzy Takas are cut very full!).

4) Because of the above, batten numbers often change the feel of the sail. Different 'feels' suit different sailing needs and are also a matter for personal preference. A 'soft sail', where there is no full length middle batten, allows the sail to depower better at the luff when feathered.

5) In lighter winds, the rig is not under heavy loads and so fewer battens are needed, whereas when you're hanging off a 4.7 then stability and top end are more needed, so extra battens are one answer. This may seem counter-intuitive because bigger sails often have more battens - but there's a big difference between being a slalom and speed sailor from being a recreational sailor who just wants to plane in and out.

I agree, with your statement.

I wonder if by nature, less batten tend to provide more low end, can you take a 5.0 with 0 batten and make it less than a 5.0 with 8 batten?

If a 5.0 with 3 battens sail got less low end than the same brand with 4 or 5 battens, what is the purpose of that sail? If you sacrifice stability, than I assume it's to have the smallest sail in your hand for the same wind speed?

I also assume the goal of the zeta is to have the biggest sail in your hand and go super fast and have a big high end.

But you don't always sacrifice stability. You may simply change the feel. Many sailmakers offer different models to cater to different preference in feel. As is the case with Hot & it seems Ezzy, the 3 batten sail does not have less range, but offers a different feel.

I'm responding to two quotes here.

A sail's stability can be helped by battens but that is not the ONLY way in which a sail can be made stable

The main way to make a sail stable is to have the luff curve working with the mast bend, so that the head of the sail will open to depower, whilst the lower section of the sail keeps driving you forwards. The head of the sail sheets out automatically at the leech in gusts, without you needing to sheet out.

Softer sails, with no full-length mid batten, can also depower from the luff because with sails like the Ezzy Taka the luff puckers up by the mast when you sheet out. When you sheet in again, the sail 'inflates' giving you more power.

If you took a standard five batten wave sail and made the same-cut sail a four batten one then it would be less stable and might have a more back-handed feel. Whilst the feel of the sail and power delivery would be affected by having less battens, I doubt the sail would get more 'bottom end' to get you planing. It would probably lose a bit of top end stability.

On topic, what tends to happen nowadays is we see five batten sails as being best for top end stability and for going neutral on the wave in cross off conditions. This stability is a great help when faced with the increase in apparent wind once you pick up a wave which drives you at exit speed towards the shore. A soft wave sail can also be good for cross off conditions because it depowers from the luff.
Four batten sails are often more popular for onshore conditions where the constant power and back-handed feel can be good for onshore wave riding.

Nowadays, our preference in wave sails is also affected by board choice. If you have a bigger, floaty wave board (made possible by modern multi fin set ups) then you can often use a smaller rig with the bigger board, meaning that early planing and top end control are less of a concern.

Madge said..

OnShoreLover said..

NordRoi said..
...As LeeD pointed out, you need less sail for the same wind! Quite a margin actually...

That has been mentioned several times in this topic. Could anyone be so kind to explain it to me from the technical point of view? Up untill recently I thought exactly the opposite:))) Now I understand I could take a 3,7 3-batten sail instead of, say, 4,2 4-5 batten.

If its on shore weather the wind at sea level can be gusty and once you get behind a wave it can vanish, so in onshore conditions 99% of people opt for more battens and make the sails fuller.

Battens = stability. Therefore less battens = less stability and are better for smaller people on more quad style of boards.

The power from less battens is usually more on /.off , you sheet in and get the power but sheet out and they go neutral. They also get very overpowered quickly and you usually have to change up or down a sail size quicker.

....

I am not sure you can make blanket statements based on # of batten. Sure, on paper, a five batten sail will be more stable if you were to go straight and blasting for a speed record (ah?), but it might be harder to depower than a 3 or 4 batten sail when you are maneuvering on swell or waves. And the on-off really depends on the cut not the number of battens. Repeating myself, my KS3s can be feathered out in a sort of continuous gradation, there is no on/off. It is a slow sail, you won't beat anybody in a straight line, but boy it can be held in a relaxed way! For comparison in high winds my old firelight 3.7, 5 battens, simply does not de-power when it is hit by a big gust. Which means little: I am sure other 5 battens would or one could build one that does ...

gorgesailor said..

Madge said..

OnShoreLover said..

NordRoi said..
...As LeeD pointed out, you need less sail for the same wind! Quite a margin actually...

That has been mentioned several times in this topic. Could anyone be so kind to explain it to me from the technical point of view? Up untill recently I thought exactly the opposite:))) Now I understand I could take a 3,7 3-batten sail instead of, say, 4,2 4-5 batten.

If its on shore weather the wind at sea level can be gusty and once you get behind a wave it can vanish, so in onshore conditions 99% of people opt for more battens and make the sails fuller.

Battens = stability. Therefore less battens = less stability and are better for smaller people on more quad style of boards.

The power from less battens is usually more on /.off , you sheet in and get the power but sheet out and they go neutral. They also get very overpowered quickly and you usually have to change up or down a sail size quicker.

The new Ezzy's or Severne sails are good. I'd go blade in larger sizes and then S1 in smaller than a 5.2m or go Ezzy wave.

Wrong on nearly all counts. This based on old information &/or certain brand perspective. Not all 3 batten sails are the same. As Duzzi says even a 3 batten sail can have excellent top-end stability. I know the Hot KS3 & Ezzy Taka(latest generation) are very stable. They need not be slow either, Steve Thorpe of K4 fins has posted over 40kts on his Takas in flat water. Bottom line is about feel. If you like to lock in & sail mostly in a straight line with a few jumps then maybe you will like the feel of a 5 batten sail more depending on the make. If you want more maneuverable but less locked in sail then you might prefer a compact 3 or 4 batten sail. Some sails depower or go neutral more than others regardless of batten count. And some people prefer sail that have more static draft in on-shore conditions. Then there is draft position to consider: some have very low & forward draft, others are more back handed & lifty while others are more centered... personal preference. You have to decide what you like.

I can't tell which post or all of the more recent posts you find fault with, LeeD is in the mix somewhere.

your brief , I agree with, it's not the number of battens.
i don't recall any specific Taka, comments from you, have you sailed them ? I know you have the Hot Sails 3B sails.

And have you sailed a Taka ?

As a sail maker I am not even going to bother being part of this topic any more, Ezzy sails added a batten to the taka range a few years back because it became un stable In higher winds, most brands state that theres more on / off power in a three batten sail. I'm not trying to win I'm just stating facts as told by the sail makers themselves.

I have sailed a KS3 and they are great sails but you do have to change down sooner as they get very back handed. Naish and Severne both dropped three batten sails as you can only make up to a certain size because of stability problems. Most 3 batten brands only go up to 5.3m sort of size sail, I do realise that the KS3 is made as big as 6.7m and I'd really not like to use that wave sailing. Also most sails that are 3 battened have to use thicker material to support the seam shaping and are often heavier than most 4 batten sails. ( see Big Daz's chart on this topic in the wave sailing section ).

I'll say no more on this issue and let you lot battle it out as you seem to know way more than anyone else.