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F4 Race and Slalom Foil Sets 2021. Long Review

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Created by berowne > 9 months ago, 3 Jul 2021
tonyk
QLD, 522 posts
31 Mar 2022 5:09PM
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Short video here from F4 with a bit of info on wings currently available in the range

Kasper79
89 posts
4 Apr 2022 2:51AM
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Made a little video about my F4 slalom bundle

Niichts
25 posts
7 Apr 2022 2:45PM
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Have been using the 2021 course race set for about a year. I'm noticing similar stress cracks on the mast-fuselage connection, even though everything is firmly set, with screws in place. Haven't crashed into anything with the wings, and it appears as if the back-and-forth twisting force from the fuselage and wings is causing them, since they're appearing at both ends of the mast. Thinking of contacting F4 about it, especially since it seems to be a common problem.

regal1
NSW, 417 posts
7 Apr 2022 9:20PM
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I twice had the black bog filler fairing come off from the front of the mast at the fuse join. The missing bog measured 2 cm x 2mm wide by 0.5mm deep down each side. Nothing stuck as it got torqued off. The advice from Chris R at F4 was to sand it fair. Seems like a design problem as I haven't seen another brand's mast do that. It only happened at the front of my mast & not the rear like yours. My set was mid '21 from Sonic Composites in China. I understand that production moved to Europe this year so perhaps it's been fixed.

Niichts
25 posts
8 Apr 2022 1:44AM
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regal1 said..
I twice had the black bog filler fairing come off from the front of the mast at the fuse join. The missing bog measured 2 cm x 2mm wide by 0.5mm deep down each side. Nothing stuck as it got torqued off. The advice from Chris R at F4 was to sand it fair. Seems like a design problem as I haven't seen another brand's mast do that. It only happened at the front of my mast & not the rear like yours. My set was mid '21 from Sonic Composites in China. I understand that production moved to Europe this year so perhaps it's been fixed.



Yup, it does sound like the same issue - think we have the same batch from Sonic. Will try to get photos later this week. I notice some occasional creaking when gybing under strong load (big sail, big wing), but other than that the stability and performance is really top notch. All I worry about is losing the entire fuselage and wing set when the stress fractures cause the entire thing to give way one day. While I don't expect a brand new mast to come for free from F4, it's certainly making me think whether I should order another mast/foil set, or just switch to another brand entirely.

regal1
NSW, 417 posts
8 Apr 2022 8:55AM
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F4 were quite sanguine about it. I've owned an iqfoil set & the 2019 Phantom 1st gen (all manufactured by Sonic) and they all had the same black bog with silver fleck finish on top of the carbon. I found the bog is soft & scratches easily. The crack wasn't in the carbon layer so I never worried about losing the fuse. I switched to another brand but that was also about unavailability of individual F4 wings last year. My F4 masts were very stiff.

Niichts
25 posts
9 Apr 2022 1:23AM
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regal1 said..
F4 were quite sanguine about it. I've owned an iqfoil set & the 2019 Phantom 1st gen (all manufactured by Sonic) and they all had the same black bog with silver fleck finish on top of the carbon. I found the bog is soft & scratches easily. The crack wasn't in the carbon layer so I never worried about losing the fuse. I switched to another brand but that was also about unavailability of individual F4 wings last year. My F4 masts were very stiff.


Not to detract from the topic, but what did you end up switching to? I'm thinking of keeping the F4 set at least for the rest of the year, till the 2023 foil designs are out. Similarly, how did you feel the Phantom 2019 set compared to the F4?

tonyk
QLD, 522 posts
10 Apr 2022 8:02AM
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Niichts said..
Yup, it does sound like the same issue - think we have the same batch from Sonic. Will try to get photos later this week. I notice some occasional creaking when gybing under strong load (big sail, big wing), but other than that the stability and performance is really top notch. All I worry about is losing the entire fuselage and wing set when the stress fractures cause the entire thing to give way one day. While I don't expect a brand new mast to come for free from F4, it's certainly making me think whether I should order another mast/foil set, or just switch to another brand entirely.


My guess is the creaking when gybing will be to do with movement in the mast to tuttle box connection (rocking)

regal1
NSW, 417 posts
10 Apr 2022 10:07PM
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I wanted to go fast so I bought what the world champion used and found the first gen 2019 phantom very, very hard for me to sail in a straight line let alone go fast. I constantly felt out of control. I found it hard to get going then once I got going, I was quick to fall off the foil. By comparison, the easiest most docile foil to sail was an IQ foil set while I would rank the F4 & Sabfoil course racing sets as very similar to each other and sweet to sail but both have more lift/power and are easier to gybe than the iq. They don't give any surprises or unexpected moments and both give notice of breaching then settle down quickly. In comparison, I found the 2021 lokefoil & 2021 Boss 5.0 foil much trickier to sail than SAB or F4. Sabfoil have a very good Australian distributor who has had ample inventory and the small wings on the slalom fuse are a joy to ride. Now SAB have introduced a new stiffer, thinner mast (Kraken) but with a different deep tuttle attachment (which appears to make mast rake difficult to adjust) so the old mast & fuselages are superseded. Lokefoil's 22 range was completely new with nothing interchangeable with the 21 range. So, after all that I'm going to give the gen 2 phantom a crack. According to Alex Udin, the foils are made by a new Cobra (!) division run by Jean Jacques Deboichet and have a much tighter production tolerance then Sonic with better shaped foils that are easier to sail but faster. The AUD euro rate of 0.70 helps. Phantom's policy is to have the same set for 2 years so in April 23, I shouldn't feel like I've set fire to wallet. Having said that, I'm keeping the 2021 Lokefoil set as it's quite challenging and rewarding to sail & the foil, mast & fuse finish is extremely tough. I promise to write a review but I have no idea when I will get the set.

Niichts
25 posts
11 Apr 2022 1:45AM
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regal1 said..
I wanted to go fast so I bought what the world champion used and found the first gen 2019 phantom very, very hard for me to sail in a straight line let alone go fast. I constantly felt out of control. I found it hard to get going then once I got going, I was quick to fall off the foil. By comparison, the easiest most docile foil to sail was an IQ foil set while I would rank the F4 & Sabfoil course racing sets as very similar to each other and sweet to sail but both have more lift/power and are easier to gybe than the iq. They don't give any surprises or unexpected moments and both give notice of breaching then settle down quickly. In comparison, I found the 2021 lokefoil & 2021 Boss 5.0 foil much trickier to sail than SAB or F4. Sabfoil have a very good Australian distributor who has had ample inventory and the small wings on the slalom fuse are a joy to ride. Now SAB have introduced a new stiffer, thinner mast (Kraken) but with a different deep tuttle attachment (which appears to make mast rake difficult to adjust) so the old mast & fuselages are superseded. Lokefoil's 22 range was completely new with nothing interchangeable with the 21 range. So, after all that I'm going to give the gen 2 phantom a crack. According to Alex Udin, the foils are made by a new Cobra (!) division run by Jean Jacques Deboichet and have a much tighter production tolerance then Sonic with better shaped foils that are easier to sail but faster. The AUD euro rate of 0.70 helps. Phantom's policy is to have the same set for 2 years so in April 23, I shouldn't feel like I've set fire to wallet. Having said that, I'm keeping the 2021 Lokefoil set as it's quite challenging and rewarding to sail & the foil, mast & fuse finish is extremely tough. I promise to write a review but I have no idea when I will get the set.


Amazing! Not gonna lie, super jealous that you've gotten to try so much gear. I've only owned the F4 and the crappy C300 starboard mast (which, in case anyone was wondering, is hilariously soft and should not be considered in the same league as any other modern 'race' foil mast). Agreed on the 'notice of breaching' - it appears to recover better when coming up too high, at least compared to the SB w/ the 1000 wing. Looking forward to your review!

ZeroVix
318 posts
13 Apr 2022 11:18PM
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regal1 said..
I wanted to go fast so I bought what the world champion used and found the first gen 2019 phantom very, very hard for me to sail in a straight line let alone go fast. I constantly felt out of control. I found it hard to get going then once I got going, I was quick to fall off the foil. By comparison, the easiest most docile foil to sail was an IQ foil set while I would rank the F4 & Sabfoil course racing sets as very similar to each other and sweet to sail but both have more lift/power and are easier to gybe than the iq. They don't give any surprises or unexpected moments and both give notice of breaching then settle down quickly. In comparison, I found the 2021 lokefoil & 2021 Boss 5.0 foil much trickier to sail than SAB or F4. Sabfoil have a very good Australian distributor who has had ample inventory and the small wings on the slalom fuse are a joy to ride. Now SAB have introduced a new stiffer, thinner mast (Kraken) but with a different deep tuttle attachment (which appears to make mast rake difficult to adjust) so the old mast & fuselages are superseded. Lokefoil's 22 range was completely new with nothing interchangeable with the 21 range. So, after all that I'm going to give the gen 2 phantom a crack. According to Alex Udin, the foils are made by a new Cobra (!) division run by Jean Jacques Deboichet and have a much tighter production tolerance then Sonic with better shaped foils that are easier to sail but faster. The AUD euro rate of 0.70 helps. Phantom's policy is to have the same set for 2 years so in April 23, I shouldn't feel like I've set fire to wallet. Having said that, I'm keeping the 2021 Lokefoil set as it's quite challenging and rewarding to sail & the foil, mast & fuse finish is extremely tough. I promise to write a review but I have no idea when I will get the set.


It is disappointing to see the flaws in manufacturing and design. Especially the ones from F4 or lets say Sonic manufacturing. You might want to make sure that a new line will be released in 2023. My understanding is that they might extent the 2 year guarantee and it could be 2024. I would also like to get some feedback on the 21/22 X and R mast that are both made at the Cobra factory. Does anyone have experience with those mast and connection to fuse?

bel29
254 posts
14 Apr 2022 11:39AM
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Good point on the differences in quality of finishing between high end race foil brands that are generally within the same price range. While I can't say that I have put my hands on all top brands out there, speaking of those I'm familiar with there is a noticeable difference between the "custom" like finish of smaller brands like Lokefoil and Z-Foil versus the serial production like finish of SB, Phantom and F4. While I don't think that this is a major issue for the average weekend racer (who will be more affected by general differences in properties that more directly affect feel and behavior of a particular foil like those described by regal1 above), it is nonetheless good to be aware of this. And of course for OD racing (iQ.) it is a live issue. (Ps: I haven't yet put my hands on my 2022 Loke Race so will withhold judgement on the new lineup given it's radically changed from the 2019-21 LK Race 105 & 95, in particular the move away from the "monobloc" carbon construction of a 1-piece mast & fuse.)

regal1
NSW, 417 posts
14 Apr 2022 7:03PM
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Above are F4 supplied foil box foil printed mast shims. I couldn't work out why the mast rake angle changed materially after one sail until I dug it out. This is a minor issue but it shows a lack of care. The shim material compresses far too readily. I also found the thin rear shims broke easily. Maybe it's changed in the new sets. I haven't had this happen to Phantom/Goyard 3D printed shims.

Niichts
25 posts
15 Apr 2022 12:43AM
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regal1 said..




Above are F4 supplied foil box foil printed mast shims. I couldn't work out why the mast rake angle changed materially after one sail until I dug it out. This is a minor issue but it shows a lack of care. The shim material compresses far too readily. I also found the thin rear shims broke easily. Maybe it's changed in the new sets. I haven't had this happen to Phantom/Goyard 3D printed shims.


I literally just ordered the shim packs from F4 (mast rake + tail wing both sets). While they will arrive in a couple of days, I probably won't get to test them on the water till May. Will definitely report back to see if they compress as easily. Did you have to change your foil box screws when using the mast shims?

regal1
NSW, 417 posts
15 Apr 2022 5:38AM
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No, I didn't have to change my mast screws. They should have changed to less compressible material by now.

ZeroVix
318 posts
15 Apr 2022 4:38AM
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Just curious. Who said that F4 production is going to Europe? Who would produce them in Europe? I really don't think so. Thanks.

By the way, I think those shims were sent out to some 3D printing company and no quality control. It was just whoever could make them. Most likely changed. Just me 2 cents.

regal1
NSW, 417 posts
19 Apr 2022 9:58PM
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The shims I like are from ap3dcustom.com. Much tougher than the F4 supplied shims. Excellent carry case.





Niichts
25 posts
21 Apr 2022 10:44PM
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regal1 said..
No, I didn't have to change my mast screws. They should have changed to less compressible material by now.


Update, shims just arrived. They are identical to yours in appearance.

regal1
NSW, 417 posts
22 Apr 2022 7:56AM
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If you can crush the shim with linesman pliers then they're the same material which imo isn't satisfactory.

Paducah
2451 posts
22 Apr 2022 10:55AM
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regal1 said..
The shims I like are from ap3dcustom.com.


That's an interesting resource.

The shear variety of wingfoil shims is amusing.

tonyk
QLD, 522 posts
24 Apr 2022 1:06PM
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About 14 months now since I switched from NP Freeride foil on to the F4 2021 series foils
My F4 has been worked hard clocking up thousands of k's while enjoying great reliability and exhilarating riding
We have great little network of riders on F4 in Australia sharing tips
Recently I was lucky enough get some drone footage, big thank you goes to local sailors Michael and George
Footage riding F4 Slalom 'Large' 100cm fuse / 620cm2 wing
Enjoy!



Kasper79
89 posts
7 May 2022 1:40PM
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My local supplier\sponsor and good friend are working on some shims for the F4 foils. I have tested it once and it seems more stable then the originals f4 shims as the load has a bigger surface to be displaced on. Went on to a new to a new pb on 5x10 on the first run with the shim so pretty excited. I used the 700(560) front wing and a 7,7 Avanti machine, not fully powered, so hoping to get over 30 knots next time.






tonyk
QLD, 522 posts
7 May 2022 5:31PM
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Kasper79 said..
My local supplier\sponsor and good friend are working on some shims for the F4 foils. I have tested it once and it seems more stable then the originals f4 shims as the load has a bigger surface to be displaced on. Went on to a new to a new pb on 5x10 on the first run with the shim so pretty excited. I used the 700(560) front wing and a 7,7 Avanti machine, not fully powered, so hoping to get over 30 knots next time.







Congrats on the new PB Kasper

The new shim design looks good, they won't point load the bottom of the board foil box, i have been using a self made system of the same design
Cheers
TK

mkseven
QLD, 2309 posts
14 May 2022 2:59AM
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Thumbs up for f4's service, from ordering a fuselage to Bulgaria to my door all within 7 days!

Niichts
25 posts
31 May 2022 5:07PM
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Update: the mast-fuse connection finally gave way, and the rear fuse bolt/screw section (towards the stabilizer, so the third one) has begun to come apart, just below where the original cracking occured. Had to order a new mast, out of a fear of losing the entire fuse when under load.To clarify, the fuselage is entirely undamaged, it's the mast that appears to be damaged or defective.

tonyk
QLD, 522 posts
2 Jun 2022 6:38PM
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Jordy has recently shared some PBs on the F4 Slalom kit on a windsurfing TV podcast
In Summary
620cm2 wing, 8 to 9m sail, 2sec average 31.5
560cm2 wing, 7 to 8m sail, 2 sec average 34.5
420cm2 wing, sail 7m or less, 2 sec average 36kts

Maybe out of reach for most of us, but good know we can't blame the equipment

If anyone gets over 30 please be sure to share your story here with us

(PS I am not at 30 yet, currently at 29.68 on the 620cm2 I am knocking on heavens door )

berowne
NSW, 1210 posts
17 Jun 2022 5:38PM
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The thing that surprises me the most is my top speeds on different foils... 26kt +/- 1.5knots on race to slalom foils.

I've still got a lot of work to do to be able to push past 30kts more often! Just the one run above 30.. and I've only had about 3 rides on the 420 but I think it will be a better option than the 337 for everything except maybe Defi!

Freeflight
111 posts
18 Jun 2022 7:46AM
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regal1 said..




Above are F4 supplied foil box foil printed mast shims. I couldn't work out why the mast rake angle changed materially after one sail until I dug it out. This is a minor issue but it shows a lack of care. The shim material compresses far too readily. I also found the thin rear shims broke easily. Maybe it's changed in the new sets. I haven't had this happen to Phantom/Goyard 3D printed shims.


Hi Regal
I was just looking at your pic of your crushed shim and it got my attention
From your photo it looks like it was only crushing one end of the shim
So it seems that the shim point loaded against the roof of board tuttle box
If this was the case maybe better that the shim crushed rather than roof of the tuttle box
Perhaps more thought needs to be put into the design of these shims so the complete shim surface has contact with both box and mast head
This is just my observations from the pic, not criticism in any way
What do think?

regal1
NSW, 417 posts
18 Jun 2022 10:36PM
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You're right, I don't want to crush the top of the tuttle box. However the supplied F4 shim material is so soft, that was never going to happen. But I want my foil mast to be raked back. The APD and Goyard/Phantom shims work fine. Denser, stronger material and no damage to the tuttle box.

Freeflight
111 posts
19 Jun 2022 6:08AM
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regal1 said..
You're right, I don't want to crush the top of the tuttle box. However the supplied F4 shim material is so soft, that was never going to happen. But I want my foil mast to be raked back. The APD and Goyard/Phantom shims work fine. Denser, stronger material and no damage to the tuttle box.


100% agree Regal they should not crush
Cheers Rod



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"F4 Race and Slalom Foil Sets 2021. Long Review" started by berowne