Holoholo said..


Yeah you make a good point for sure- there's always the danger of ending up with a taint of a board that's not particularly good at anything. I'm definitely going to focus on the wing aspect and if I can prone it in micro-surf, that'll be a bonus.

In that case, based on my experience and your stated use case of an all-around wing board, I would go with body weight neutral literage. And optimise for length starting with the width that you are comfortable with. E.g. I have read some think that the Amos Sultan Wing is too narrow at 18" and they suggest that 20" is better. It's taken me a while to get used to 18" and now I love it. Had my best every session earlier today using the 85L Sultan.

If you want a light wind wing board, I would go with 10 - 20 L over body weight.

Holoholo said..
I'm playing with the idea of a mid length / skinny board to use prone in marginal bigger conditions and as an all around wing board, I mostly wing to surf, ride bumps/dw. Local has consistent wind/choppy conditions. I'm kind of indecisive about dims/length/volume. I'm I demoed an omen 5'9"x21.5" x 85L in 15 kgs choppy conditions for about 30 minutes. Had lots of fun although it felt on the heavy side and I didn't have enough time to dial it in.

I'm 95KG and wonder where the sweet spot is on size. Wonder if too much volume will become corky/unstable, want short enough to surf, but not so short to diminish positive characteristics of these boards.

I'm around your weight (94kg) and have a 5'10" x 20 1/2" 80L that that I use as my everyday wing board in all conditions. It is super fun and I have not found any downsides vs my previous 5'0" x 22". It is easier to get up in heavy chop using a sideways stinkbug and takes off a lot earlier. It also handles breach touchdowns and landing jumps better with the extra nose length. I've been proning it a bunch recently and it goes really well, paddling around the lineup is way less work and catches waves easier. I can't duckdive it at that volume so that is one downside as a prone board, but overall it's really fun and I think my next dedicated prone board will be similar length but just a bit thinner and narrower, maybe 60L or so.

Volume wise, I think 80 is pretty much right, I might go lower volume if I was someplace with steady filled in wind all the time or more volume if dealing with marginal conditions a lot. Where I live it's generally pretty windy, but the cove where I launch and finish waverides is always light/gusty so being able to slog to the windline is important.

I'm not (yet) on a narrow board, but I find this discussion highly enlightening and, I must say, quite amusing. It does remind me on my early days learning to windfoil. I loved the sessions on the 11.6 ft long and narrow SS Flyer, but really did not care for the much shorter and fatter typically windfoil boards. Compared to DW boards, the Flyer is fat and very long, but it shares the general idea of going faster with less resistance. I thought it was just my love for longboards that made me like the Flyer, but I stand correctly.

I wonder how the trend to longer, narrower boards will play out for total beginners and balance-challenged intermediates. At some popular spots (like Kalmus on Cape Cod), some of the balance challenges come from chop, especially when the wind drops as it often does. While still taxiing and crashing a lot, I'd assume there's a limit how narrow a board can be before it becomes counter-productive?

I find this all very true. Like many people recently I've been trying to learn to SUP downwind foil on a long, skinny board- 7'4 and 20 inches wide. Its hard work, and frustrating wobbling around, falling off again and again. Trying to paddle up can be exhausting. When I've had enough of the learning pain, I go in, switch the front foil to a small one, pump up a small wing and go whizz around to put a smile back on my face., so easy to get up on foil and so much fun.

I undoubtedly think narrow is better for winging, not just DW. At neutral to negative buoyancy my PR was riding in lulls all the way down to 5 knots on the 5'3"x22" this year. This was on an 1150 foil.

I would have to disagree about slogging and balance. There's a lot of different hull shapes that can make slogging and balance harder, but the narrow shapes I like have all been completely fine to balance on and the slogging is FAR better on a narrow/dw board than a old style shape. If you get a rounded hull like the dragonfly though, terrible for balance IMO.

NordRoi said..
Would you be better on a 5'3x18" ?

It would take off better, but I wouldn't want to go that narrow. The required thickening of the board is a significant negative IMO. It pushes you farther away from the foil and changes your surf experience. My experience so far has told me that boards under 20" are really benefitting the actual DW paddle community. My wing boards will probably stay in the 20-22" range and get stretched out a little longer with shifted volume distribution so that they can stay thinner and keep my surfing at the forefront of the experience. Even my 5'3"x22" is so much more efficient than any other average wing board on the market that I think 99% of riders would be happy with it.

BWalnut said..

NordRoi said..
Would you be better on a 5'3x18" ?

Even my 5'3"x22" is so much more efficient than any other average wing board on the market that I think 99% of riders would be happy with it.

i think we are saying the same thing!

BWalnut said..

NordRoi said..

BWalnut said..

NordRoi said..
Would you be better on a 5'3x18" ?

Even my 5'3"x22" is so much more efficient than any other average wing board on the market that I think 99% of riders would be happy with it.

i think we are saying the same thing!

Just don't write off the under 22" boards for winging! Being able to ride small foils and small wings is great. Also being able to get on foil quickly when tired after lots of falls on a big day in the water is really nice too.

As I've seen many cases in which we need to go to both extreme cases before getting a middle good compromise, I guess that an small similar increase of performance could also be achieved on moving from a very wide board (29") to a moderate one (25"), increasing the length, right? Of course the best horses for light wind must be the narrow and long DW boards, but I'd prefer to go step by step, I wingfoil in choppy conditions.

If you had (say) a 5'4 long x 23' wide board and added extra length to the rear (creating a pin tail) making it a 6' long board would it give you the benefits of earlier lift due to it being a longer board; but feel the same in the air as the extra length is behind you?

MilesH said..
If you had (say) a 5'4 long x 23' wide board and added extra length to the rear (creating a pin tail) making it a 6' long board would it give you the benefits of earlier lift due to it being a longer board; but feel the same in the air as the extra length is behind you?

Yes. The difference is quite a bit too. I have a 5'3"x22" kalama and am testing 5'10"-6'3" boards that are at 20" and the speed and takeoff difference is HUGE. I consider my 5'3" to be quite efficient in comparison to the average wing board. I consider the 6'3" that I just had built and tried to be somewhat comical in how fast it takes off.

BigZ said..

BWalnut said..

MilesH said..
If you had (say) a 5'4 long x 23' wide board and added extra length to the rear (creating a pin tail) making it a 6' long board would it give you the benefits of earlier lift due to it being a longer board; but feel the same in the air as the extra length is behind you?

Yes. The difference is quite a bit too. I have a 5'3"x22" kalama and am testing 5'10"-6'3" boards that are at 20" and the speed and takeoff difference is HUGE. I consider my 5'3" to be quite efficient in comparison to the average wing board. I consider the 6'3" that I just had built and tried to be somewhat comical in how fast it takes off.

Something like that. 6'2x20 ;)

I approve this shape and dims haha!

zimboflyman said..
i'm asking if its more difficult to ride smaller foils and narrower board coming from bigger ones.

Very good question, I'd love to see some answers, too. I only have experience with going from larger to smaller foils on the same wide boards, and smaller are definitely easier in chop. More efficient foils can be smaller than typical beginner foils for the same take off speed on wider boards, but I there were some reports here indicating that the difference is even larger with narrower boards.

zimboflyman said..
Really appreciate the massive writeup and insights - thanks!As you move from wider boards / larger foil combo to narrower board / smaller foils, can you give us an idea on how it feels / learning curve?I guess i'm asking if its more difficult to ride smaller foils and narrower board coming from bigger ones.

I'm 65kg riding 95Litre 6ft x 28'' board and 1900 foil - up riding both directions and sometimes making my jibes, but don't enjoy the hard work (lack of technique -haha ) of tryna get off the water in lighter winds, so super keen to go more narrow and downsize the foil and wing to save my shoulders.
But maybe I need to improve more before changing down? - something like a Kalama e3 5'9'' x 22.5" sounds appealing as heck, but might be biting off too much?

I can't tell you how many people came to me with the same problem, riding a big foil and struggling on jibes while riding a big board.

First thing I did for everyone is let them switch from their big foils down onto my fs1150. Probably 95% of people came back screaming "I have to buy this!!!!" My buddy even was a test rider from me, he took a 1900 out for two sessions to learn (his first two sessions ever) and then switched to my fs1150. He went from barely able to ride and breaching to doing full reaches on foil right away. Only 1 guy all year didn't jump on the 1150 after trying it and TBH it was an ultralight day and he was very new so it made sense that he wasn't blown away.

I, myself, was bouncing back and forth between a 1210 and a 1500 (I learned on the 1500) and I was not progressing at all. I had to touch down on all my jibes to switch my feet, it felt impossible to switch in the air and I was kind of over winging to be honest. I would have quit and gone back to kiting if I hadn't broken my ribs to start the season (and couldn't wear my kite harness). Instead of quitting I doubled down and bought the entire Cloud IX fs foil quiver. Switching to the 1150 and 1000 as my new foil combo was life altering for me right out the gate. The 1150, is far superior to the 1000 IMO which is why I have everyone try that foil. The smaller foils will also result in less fatigue and impact on your body when you are up and riding, Believe it or not the drag in the water translates straight into your wrists, shoulders, core, and wears you down.

So yes, size down that foil ASAP. I tell everyone that as soon as you can consistently get up and ride straight (not even jibe) it's time to size down.

For the board: If you had the 8' x 21" kalama that I had it would blow your current board away. Of course, the water start would be easier. Hard to conceive but incredibly valuable to note is that it would also turn better and go upwind better.

IMO your board LENGTH changes the stability of your ride more than the width when you are bobbing in the water. You probably have a 75-85cm mast and if you end up with a medium high aspect foil like the 1150 it creates and insane amount of roll resistance while you are in the water kneeling on the board. So, falling off the side is quite easy to adapt to. The length however, is where you find you'll struggle if you go terribly shorter. 5'9" should not be a hard jump from 6'. My 5'3' x 22" kalama does cause me to fall off the back or over the front in rough seas from time to time though. Never off the side. (try before you buy if possible on the kalama. His track boxes aren't always in the best spots).

The biggest benefit towards your progression in your circumstance with a narrow board is going to be that you will stop worrying about falling. You can fall anytime, anywhere, with confidence that you can easily get back up onto foil without expending a ton of energy. Not being afraid to fall, unlocks progression to the *th level because you just start trying so many more movements on the water! Once you get it sorted and have a smaller wing in hand, if you're like me, you'll be able to foil for 3 hour sessions, without a break, without a harness, for the entire season, pain free. All that saved energy and body stress from the smaller wing allows you to focus on taking more chances on foil, and pushing your progression that much harder.

So yes, size down your board too!

Summary:
You may have a break in period of a day or two to adapt to the new foils/boards but then you are off to the races and will be having more fun than ever.
If you get a narrow board it will allow you to use smaller wings and and smaller foils.
You will save tons of energy while reducing wear and tear on your body.
You'll be inspired to try riskier maneuvers with all of your saved energy.
I would not be afraid of going narrow, I would be concerned about going to short.
I really like the Cloud IX foils with an 8.5 aspect ratio. It's a very user friendly AR.
I like a foil span of 92-99cm for beginners to progress on. This will allow you to roll the foil very naturally, without feeling out of control. Larger spans feel stiff in turns. Smaller spans feel twitchy (but you will progress to them, 77cm is my current favorite).
Add a large tail and long fuse to your quiver. Slap that on to any new front foil to activate the easy button for the first few sessions. Then go back to a medium fuse and a medium or small tail to activate it's full powers.

If you're ever in the Columbia River Gorge don't hesitate to hit me up. I'll have extra boards and foils for you to try!

Last, I'm currently working on two additional write ups to compliment my narrow board post. One will be a year end summary. The other will be a writeup on foils. I'll post them as new topics when I finish them and they will probably give you more info and answer more questions.

bolocom said..

I agree with you on everything except for the 8' long board. Never tried an 8' but tried a 7' and didn't like the length.
I think they have a life of their own and you lose feel. If you downwind with a wing they are great. You become more aware the moment you go back to a high performance board.they feel so much better.
IMO longer boards go up easy, you can use a smaller wing and foil but you give up a lot of feel and control.the stronger the wind gets the worst they become.

I think we're in agreement actually, you're just referencing something I'm not discussing.

I was responding to Zimboflyman about his 6'x28" board. An 8'x21" barracuda would blow that thing away in every category. I definitely stand by that. I also rode the 8' in 45 knots without issue, but carrying it in and out of the water did suck. He's specifically asking about a 5'9"x22.5" which will also be worlds better than what he is currently riding.

You're referencing your 5'x22" thin freestyle board. For what you specifically want to do, jumps, you are correct, smaller is generally better.

My current board is 5'3"x22" and I don't expect to miss it at all when I switch to my 5'10"x20" that is arriving soon (well, hopefully not!). I surf swell in the river and ocean, not actual breaking waves. I leave my jumping to my kiting. So in my circumstances, the ability to ride a 550-700 foil with a 2.5-3.5m wing every day is more valuable and the losses would be far too significant for me to tolerate to drop down to a 5' board again.

So yes, I think you are correct for your situation, I'm correct for mine, and I think Zimboflyman will be a lot happier with a slightly shorter and significantly narrower board to progress on!

janoj said..
Lot of good info in this post. @Bwalnut, what's the limit od thickness in a board? Thinking also that narrow and long with some volume needs to be sometimes too much thick. (But not quantified)

Also, do you prefer harder rails than rounded rails? Why?
Thanks!!

I wish I could tell you I knew the "limit" on thickness for a board but I haven't captured that number yet. IMO thinner is better, it gives you faster response time from the foil. Same as a shorter vs longer mast would. So, if you are trying to get rail to rail, thinner for sure. You'll see DW riders going as narrow as 17" as well as the Amos Shapes Sultan wing all the way down at 17" but those boards are getting over 6" thick which is a significant negative to me. There is undoubtedly also a point of diminishing returns. You only need the board to be narrow enough to get you up on your favorite foil and favorite wing in your average conditions. If you don't like super small foils, this can be achieved with a much wider than 17" board quite easily.

I, personally, am exploring some of the magic around the 20" width which keeps the board under 5" thick and feels incredibly fast on the water. My new board should be here in a week or two and I'll have another made in the spring so, lots more data coming in.

Hard rails for me. I've always felt as though hard rails release the water easier and result in a board that feels less corky when at a standstill. People tell me that the rounded hull/rail handles touchdowns better but I don't struggle with touchdowns and even if I did, I don't think I would want a board that specifically caters to my mistakes.