Hey youdigsurf, if I remember correctly you are French, I agree with you I would most definitely get yourself a mast 80-90cms you will find jibing so much easier and riding sea chop with less touch downs, but maybe your 75cms mast is good for prone in shallow water or wake foiling, as I don't know your main foiling area
if you have a good mast you can foil almost all conditions with one or two foils and then just downsize your wing as the wind gets stronger. Have you tried the Takuma Kujira - most users say it's range is amazing, negatives are it's pricey for alu and not the toughest out there
perso I really like GoFoil, solid, simple and I could foil almost all conditions with just the M200 but there are always used options out there. With GF I don't use shims. As for budget yes good gear costs, you can always buy used especially if you are good at doing little repairs, some foil wings can fix up nice with a bit of putty and sanding
also I don't know if you are a heavier dude but 120 liter is more windsurf size, you should be able to ride something your weight +10 liters without too much difficulty and you will gain a lot of maneuverability
I'm sure there are plenty of others out here with simple fun setups who can share with you what gear works for them

Fone is far better construction and design than army and north imo. Its one of the few brands that has mastered both..
I think armstrong has a very low performance/technicality ratio, its just hard to ride for no good reason, as a bonus its super expensive.
Same applies to gong from what I hear, hard to ride, but cheap at least.
Cabrinha has good all around design but construction is so so, mast is a noodle.
Takuma has great design, construction is usually not great, new mast still not great, main designer changed company.

I am also using HS1250 and HS1850 with 85cm A+ mast and 232, 232 chopped and Flying V stab.
On a Patrik AIO 5'9" 115 litres. Have been happy with the performance of the HS foils. And mostly wing but also SUP Surf.
Have actually found the Flying V to be the best for pitch stability on the Patrik board. Not quite at the front of the boxes.
Very interested to hear you find the Armstrong faster than the AFS Performer 1250.
Have been looking around at other foil brands mainly because upgrading the Armstrong kit is now ridiculous money for MA series and HM Masts.
Did think I would go to AFS because I have used AFS windfoils and they have been good. But lately AFS only seem to build kit for small riders. Boards and Foils. If you are 94kg like me the kits pretty small.
Latest foils I have seen that look like they will suit are F4 GP series. Not too expensive, good range and construction seems decent. Full carbon.
Interested in what you get and how it compares to the Armstrong

Well you are on superseded armie gear to start with so any comparison with another brands current setups will not be anywhere near accurate.

The issues you mentioned (apart from board) can be apparent on any brand. If you are struggling to technically use the gear you currently have, I would say it's an issue with your skill level not the gear. What you have is the most plug and play armie gear you can find apart from maybe the initial CF range.

What local brands are most popular? Try and ride them all.

F one make great foils/setups btw.

Gong isn't too bad either -local guy rides with these seem okay.

In-fact they are all good. Only thing holding one back in the end is their own skill level and straight out water time.

youdigsurf said..
@eppo
Well i have a lot of water time.
When you take the basis of flying past this step it's cannot be only the skill, you need skill to pass manoeuver but after 2 year you cannot tell somebody that he need the skill to fly a 1550cm2 wing with a ratio of 5.7 on a board of 120liter for 187lbs , well maybe a ha and it's depend the brand or a small front.

Keep in mind i compared different brand , and i had a big step back when i switched to army and still to this day not able to do thing i was able to do with gong for exemple foot change both way in flight for exemple.

Like foilstate said " its just hard to ride for no good reason" that probably the best sentence to summarize what armstrong feel like.

i know you are a big advocate of this brand and i read and like your reviews , but i didnt see you winging , from what i read and saw , i saw you wake foiling and prone foiling those are totaly different than winging.

Soz mate if you cant change feet both ways in flight you just need better skills. Theres no getting around it.

Armie foils forte is winging. Thats what they have been designed around and if anything lack easy access proning potential at the moment because of this focus.
im not here to comvince you of anything bud - im saying try F one and even gong. They are great foils. I Especially rate F one.

But your experience on the armie foils - is your experience not what "armie foils are like". You are jist not good enough and you are blaming your gear.

.you gotta be honest with yourself if you can't change feet both ways on the stable slow 3 yr old wings you have, you need more water time bud.

it aint the gear.

If ya wanna end the mind melt, just go for f-one. Their kit isn't cheap but their range is wide and the older phantom wings are still imo top class foils for winging. Plenty available second hand, and also just be plenty around for you to try out before buying.

I moved from gong to north recently and the north solar and SF foil range is super user friendly and a quality piece of kit. Probably not as many options as F-one yet but so so easy to ride - wing or prone.

That said, I agree with eppo in that time on foil solves a lot of problems, but if you are putting in the time, and you are not having fun or questioning your gear, change it up. The second hand market is strong.

youdigsurf said..
But how do you explain that after 6-8month i was switching my foot on gong foil and still 1 year after i cant on Armstrong, what is it ?

Some gear favors a particular riding style and/or skill set, while other gear is more forgiving. Armstrong may be a bit more "rider picky". I know several good to very good wingers who like their Armstrong setup, and look amazing on it. But I also know others who did not like some of the same Armstrong wings, and that includes both wingers with more and less skill.

eppo said..
You are just not good enough and you are blaming your gear.

Really not helpful at all. It reminds me of a windsurfing instructor who once claimed that problems with fins are "always rider error". He was an extremely good freestyler and could sail anything. Theoretically, he was correct. Practically, his advice as less than useless, since for people with skills not at his level, better fins can make life a lot easier. And even for a given "great" fin, there are still personal riding style differences that mean what works for one sailor may not be the best solution for another sailor.

Went from starboard to Armstrong (85 A+/hs1850/ha1125/195). Always a little finicky to dial in the Armstrong and the mast way to woobly.

Went over to Gong after trying their 100cm miniblock, then v2 carbon 85, and finally their HM92 mast. Settled for the Ypra and Ypra S. I'm really happy with the change, also almost half the cost of other brands to get new wings??

UisceBeatha said..
If ya wanna end the mind melt, just go for f-one. Their kit isn't cheap but their range is wide and the older phantom wings are still imo top class foils for winging. Plenty available second hand, and also just be plenty around for you to try out before buying.

I moved from gong to north recently and the north solar and SF foil range is super user friendly and a quality piece of kit. Probably not as many options as F-one yet but so so easy to ride - wing or prone.

That said, I agree with eppo in that time on foil solves a lot of problems, but if you are putting in the time, and you are not having fun or questioning your gear, change it up. The second hand market is strong.

is the north front footed like gong ? too me look like north got more option than fone in term of front wing selection and so on.
yep about changing gear that what im gonna do definitively but i need to do it wisely =) not like the first time . i tried a phantom today check the end of the post @alysum

@boardsurfr , gong is good but i find their aluminium mast too draggy , there not much hm mast on the used market , even with regular t bar carbon it's draggy as hell , i did some back to back test with my friend that had a carbon tbar veloce and new stabs . another issue with gong is corrosion and unscrewing during flight, the best way to solve it is to go to the titanium fuselage route apparently . but if you calculate hm mast + titanium fuse and so on it's near the same price than other.

@baldy yes that what im trying to do demo, but it's not comming from the shop it's more i let you ride my gear you let me ride your kind of deal lol, im a bit far away from the physical wing shop.

@captser finicky indeed , most of the people im telling about armstrong , some got the full quiver with all the ma new performance mast and so on they tell me it's technical and finicky that the contrary of plug and play that i like. did you noticed a drag with the v2 carbon compared to the hm one ?

@alysum i just tried a fone phantom 1480 today back to back against my hs1850 and what to say , it's easy to fly seem hugely front footed compared to my army when i tooke my hs1850 it's felt sticky on water i was barely able to make it fly . even with the aluminium mast i didnt noticed any drag , it's almost as good as armstrong , so it's must be pretty good with a carbon mast !

boardsurfr said..
FWIW, I know several wingers who ended up on Gong foils

Sorry, brain fart, I meant to write Go foils. Would blame autocorrect but it's just age.

I'm not great. I'm also primarily sup and just starting to wing. So take me input for what it's worth.the gear will make a difference but only to a point. If you put some time in and can stay on foil, newer gear of any brand may make you better. The sport is evolving that quick. We are only now seeing boards that are compatible across all brands with longer tracks for instance. That said it won't eliminate all problems. And this sport is hard, exponentially so if your gear isn't right.
my read and understanding of what you have going on may revolve around your mast angle and shimming on your board. If your having issues taking off, and gliding this all can be a result of that. I had an early gen starboard board. I didn't realize how negatively the mast rake angles was impacting me due to the tail slope. 20$ in plastic shims later it was a whole new experience; and don't be afraid to add a few, that took like 3 to get right. Similarly I'm currently on a Kalama, the lack of forward track movement negatively impacts my foot placement and ride on some Armstrong foils making the foil feel off some days. all that said I cut my teeth on the CF2400 and HS1850. They are user friendly once you figure out your issue. Probably not what you want to hear; but spending the time to find the cause ie mast shim/foot placement/etc will improve your understanding of the gear and open up some knowledge of what you do or don't want when you upgrade. Part of Armstrong appeal to me was the base versions are straight forward but can be adjusted to increase performance. If you don't want to mess with that look to go foil or lift for example which don't allow as many configurations. (Though they are both expanding).
fuse and tail also significantly change the feel, dropping a different tail may positively improve your experience at small cost. In my experience they can drastically change the experience more than I expected. Based on your comments I don't think this applies for your end state, but it may.
the progression podcast opened my eyes to all of these nuances, and was worth my time to understand the impact each tweak would make.
good luck!
cheers!

I think MidAtlanticfoil has a good point, the offset could be AN reason why the footswitch troubles you.I,m 97/98kg and using an AKPhazer 5.6x27x90 and an KT5.4x22x56l and funnily the KT is easier to swap as the bigger wider AK because there is no room to put my size 47 on the wrong spot..


Another thing that comes to mind is that sometimes a certain brand gear philosphy/feel just doesn't match with you.My background is wavesailing and Sup so i,m way more front foot orientated as most guys who come from a prone surf back ground.I started with Go-foil (hard to get in Northern-Europe), then Sab, had lots of foils of them but never had that special one.Bought an Cedrus mast and Kujira1210. That combo was already an 95% match and then tried an Cabrinha H-series wich is for ME the match made in heaven. I don,t say it is the best foil for everyone, but for me it works great with my need for a bit of front foot driven turns, ease of use and reasonable glide and ability to turn in slower waves. I have the 1200-1000-800 but use 80% of the time the H1000. I tried from a friend the F-one 7seas with there carbon mast and that set up was as easy as it can be. I really impressed by it and could easily be equally happy with those as with my set of Canbrinha's.

Good points by Jeroensurf. For Armstrong riders looking for more front foot pressure, try adding a MA tail like the 205 or 235. The camber section really increases the front foot pressure from my experience, but it is easy to negate with shims.

youdigsurf said..
Thanks to all, what i feel mostly is im still backfooted, moving the foil forward solve some backfoot issue but create other, like unability to pump the foil to start the fly and board nose diving mostly meaning it's harder to make it fly. Putting a bigger mast rake 3 degree seem to reduce considerably the speed of the foil but improve manoeuver for sure since the board is more nose up. It's been like 6month im 3printing shim for top plate i have like 10of them and 5 anytime with me even a cutout of usbox to get the ri screw while im changing shim, when prone foiling i even bring the screwdriver with me, it's how obsessed iam to find the right setting and make this foil work .
About the foot change, the most challenging part is the lack of lift, other foil it's obvious but not at all on Armstrong that and the hyper manoeuvrability a little move and the board is shaking like mad , tho i did succed changing foot i flight sometime with the hs1850. Maybe the swing wait doesnt help and the balance sweet spot is not the biggest either


About my skill level in wing atm, i can fly a sinker of 48l, pass some tack sometime both way, working on passing special 360, succed on most jibe and race jibe, heineken jibe.

think you are right by finding some gear that fit my style of riding, the sad part is i couldnt try anything so i settled on the most expensive piece of gear thinking i will be the only issue if something was wrong .

I've not used other foils but heard that Armstrong is designed more back-footed. Lift must always equal your weight for stable flight. If you shim mast and leave it and feet in same position you need more front foot pressure to achieve same angle of attack of foil and speed. If you cannot apply front foot pressure you will get too much lift from angle of attack so slow down to balance it. Your experience of shimming slowing you down implies your back foot is too far back, try moving it forward. Pictures of Armie and his mates have feet over back half of mast or on top.

@patronus
to have a balanced setup i think or at least reduce the backfoot to something manageable , front foot pressure help a lot at the end of manoeuver .
Having to much backfoot or front foot is not good either but i found backfoot pressure stance harder ,

just try on the ground bend your front leg and move forward and now do the contrary bend your back leg and move backward you will see by yourself that is way much more harder to keep the backfoot stance.
because on the backfoot you have your whole body weight over one leg , on front foot the weight is still balanced between the two leg even if the front leg taking more weight the back leg still taking some.