Qld Teachers Striking - 19/5/09

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Zabongi
Zabongi
NSW
40 posts
NSW, 40 posts
21 May 2009 1:41pm
I don't understand how the comparison between AWOTE and graduate teachers salary can be used to justify a pay rise, not just for graduates but for all teachers. It smells of trickery to me.

A quick look on the net reveals the following pays for some equivalent graduates from Queensland:
Teacher $48,493
Nurse $48,829
Police $37,665

Will the teachers only accept a pay rise of greater than 25%? That would mean a starting salary of $60,000.

My 2c.
CRAZYTAXI
CRAZYTAXI
WA
45 posts
WA, 45 posts
22 May 2009 12:16pm
Dont feel sorry for W.A. teachers, in fact some are embarrassed by the unions actions here.
In the last couple of years it has been very militant and basicly held the future of year 12 students to ransom on a regular basis. The last pay was achieved with pressure and activities other proffessions (police, nurses) wouldnt stoop to - just before an election.
Yes they have got a massive increase, but its at the expensive of every other government worker, with flow on effects in the private sector.



http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,24057352-13881,00.htmlbroke://


Yesterday's offer, which has yet to be accepted by teachers, would add almost $14,000 to the pay of a top classroom teacher within three years, lifting salaries from $77,700 now to $91,394 in 2011. Graduate teachers would be more than $10,000 better off, jumping to almost $58,000 in three years.

On top of this, teachers would receive allowances of up to $19,000 to work in remote schools, $4000 to work in country schools and $3000 in difficult-to-staff metropolitan schools. Top classroom teachers prepared to work in a remote school would be on more than $110,000 by 2011.




This shows how ridiculous the situation is - why should WA teachers be paid so much more OR everyone else so much less....?





From the Education Departments own site-

www.det.wa.edu.au/teachingwa/detcms/navigation/working-in-a-public-school/salaries-and-teaching-levels/?page=3#toc3


Im quiet happy to pay big $ for quality BUT $$$$ doesnt mean you will get quality considering what WA uni's are up to.

elizabethb come on over.... we've got the best wind and 100 of your fellow Qlders for company.

evlPanda
evlPanda
NSW
9207 posts
NSW, 9207 posts
22 May 2009 2:43pm
Yesterday's offer, which has yet to be accepted by teachers, would add almost $14,000 to the pay of a top classroom teacher within three years, lifting salaries from $77,700 now to $91,394 in 2011. Graduate teachers would be more than $10,000 better off, jumping to almost $58,000 in three years.




That's got to be one of, if not the highest, graduate pay I've ever heard of.
CRAZYTAXI
CRAZYTAXI
WA
45 posts
WA, 45 posts
22 May 2009 1:13pm
Exactly.

But what is much worse is that to you dont currently even need to pass year 12 or do TEE subjects, to get into the uni teaching degree courses.
So many prospective student teachers (as in school leavers not mature age) did not pass year 12 english (OR shouldnt have) and have such shocking literacy skills that the 2 biggest uni's have developed special literacy units for their 1st yr teaching students.

The % of uni students that couldnt pass basic english was gobsmacking.

getfunky
getfunky
WA
4485 posts
WA, 4485 posts
22 May 2009 4:43pm
Thanks to the CUBbies out there WA is very expensive to live in! The COL in Perf is surreal!!!

Taxi -do you have the same graphs for other public sector workers? Does WA rise dramatically (following the obscene housing 'boom') against other states too? If you don't show the full stats then in isolation they are pretty suss I reckon.



I work in the public sector and my wages have slipped behind inflation continually for over a decade . This is partly because I work in the commomwealth sector so things are not so bad as in WA generally - therefore I wear it to some extent.



Kn stoopid, v8 drivin, WA CUBbies - Hope they stack their jetski into a SUP rider and get sued for every outdoor kitchen/spa they own!!




Ha ha - I think I have successfully entwined at least half a dozen threads there and should be flamed big time!
firiebob
firiebob
WA
3182 posts
WA, 3182 posts
22 May 2009 5:22pm
CRAZYTAXI said...

Exactly.

But what is much worse is that to you dont currently even need to pass year 12 or do TEE subjects, to get into the uni teaching degree courses.
So many prospective student teachers (as in school leavers not mature age) did not pass year 12 english (OR shouldnt have) and have such shocking literacy skills that the 2 biggest uni's have developed special literacy units for their 1st yr teaching students.

The % of uni students that couldnt pass basic english was gobsmacking.




If the pay is so good, how come they have to drop the standard so low to get teachers ?
Not having a go at you Crazy, just a thought, I'm thinking is it now such a poop job no one wants to do it ?

Mobydisc
Mobydisc
NSW
9029 posts
NSW, 9029 posts
22 May 2009 8:19pm
firiebob said...


If the pay is so good, how come they have to drop the standard so low to get teachers ?
Not having a go at you Crazy, just a thought, I'm thinking is it now such a poop job no one wants to do it ?




I was criticised here for suggesting teaching can be a poop job. Yeah it can be a bad job but it can be a great job too. Sometimes its great and bad on the same day. I can imagine some of the schools in WA, based on my travels and experience there, can be pretty tough.

In regards to pay, $60K for a new graduate is pretty good. Personally I think thats too high. Money would be better spent at the top end for experienced, quality teachers.
FormulaNova
FormulaNova
WA
15105 posts
WA, 15105 posts
22 May 2009 7:35pm
firiebob said...

CRAZYTAXI said...

Exactly.

But what is much worse is that to you dont currently even need to pass year 12 or do TEE subjects, to get into the uni teaching degree courses.
So many prospective student teachers (as in school leavers not mature age) did not pass year 12 english (OR shouldnt have) and have such shocking literacy skills that the 2 biggest uni's have developed special literacy units for their 1st yr teaching students.

The % of uni students that couldnt pass basic english was gobsmacking.




If the pay is so good, how come they have to drop the standard so low to get teachers ?
Not having a go at you Crazy, just a thought, I'm thinking is it now such a poop job no one wants to do it ?




I've got to agree with FB, if they are increasing the wages and lowering the standards, there must be some disadvantages. If the allowances for living in remote areas aren't needed, why do they have to offer them to entice people out there?

The great thing about these increased wages is that if it is much more attractive to teach, you will see much more capable teachers come through the system in the next 4 or 5 years. Sounds good to me!

elizabethb
elizabethb
QLD
2081 posts
QLD, 2081 posts
22 May 2009 9:44pm
I won't quote the above info; just to save space
Well yes... but ouch...

I believe that increasing the wages is the correct way to go, but OP entrance scores need to be lowered (ie from say 10/14 to 1-5) as to entice the potential 'smart' or enthusiastic teachers. If their OP is worse than say 5, then they can go through the 'back door' and begin a Bach of Arts and transfer in.

That's my 2cents worth at least; its frustrating for me to go through uni seeing potential teachers my age who are just there because they didn't know what to do or thought they could just cruise through the course; prac results match their attitude, as does their ranking. That is how at the beginning of 1st year we had over 400 enrollments, and on graduation day we had 129.

All Education Teachers now go through a strict ranking system that includes a panel of 3-5 interviewers (unseen to us), with them looking over our prac reports, relating our practice to the QCT standards, our GPA, our Internship, unit plan and lesson plan examples etc. It isn't easy to get an 'Outstanding', but I was one of few graduates to get an outstanding, which is primarily why I have a job, and others don't.
FormulaNova
FormulaNova
WA
15105 posts
WA, 15105 posts
22 May 2009 8:39pm
elizabethb said...

I won't quote the above info; just to save space
Well yes... but ouch...

I believe that increasing the wages is the correct way to go, but OP entrance scores need to be lowered (ie from say 10/14 to 1-5) as to entice the potential 'smart' or enthusiastic teachers. If their OP is worse than say 5, then they can go through the 'back door' and begin a Bach of Arts and transfer in.

That's my 2cents worth at least; its frustrating for me to go through uni seeing potential teachers my age who are just there because they didn't know what to do or thought they could just cruise through the course; prac results match their attitude, as does their ranking. That is how at the beginning of 1st year we had over 400 enrollments, and on graduation day we had 129.

All Education Teachers now go through a strict ranking system that includes a panel of 3-5 interviewers (unseen to us), with them looking over our prac reports, relating our practice to the QCT standards, our GPA, our Internship, unit plan and lesson plan examples etc. It isn't easy to get an 'Outstanding', but I was one of few graduates to get an outstanding, which is primarily why I have a job, and others don't.


Elizabeth, what's OP stand for?

I was surprised with people from my own year that seemed to go into teaching almost as a default. None of them seemed to be the sort of person that would make a good teacher, but then again, they may have turned out to be excellent teachers. I don't know if academic results necessarily equate to being great teachers.

My first job was working at a Uni and part of that job was supervising a computer lab in the education department. The people that I dealt with there that stick in my memory are not the ones I think would make great teachers... Hopefully they got better!
elizabethb
elizabethb
QLD
2081 posts
QLD, 2081 posts
22 May 2009 11:23pm
FormulaNova said...

Elizabeth, what's OP stand for?


An OP stands for an Overall Positive which is determined by the QSA (Queensland Studies Authority).

Five of your top marks out of your six subjects count towards calculating your OP.

OPs range from 1-25 (1 being the best and 25 the 'worst').

i.e 2.3% of Qld Yr 12 Ss get OP1,
12.6% get OP 2-5 inclusive
23.5% get OP 6-10 inclusive
26.6% get OP 11-15 inclusive
etc. That is 2001 data btw but that is usually how it goes.
CRAZYTAXI
CRAZYTAXI
WA
45 posts
WA, 45 posts
23 May 2009 1:26am
Get funky said Taxi -do you have the same graphs for other public sector workers? Does WA rise dramatically (following the obscene housing 'boom') against other states too? If you don't show the full stats then in isolation they are pretty suss I reckon.


Sure looks sus, thats why I used the Dept of Education and the original 'Australian newspaper' article to prove the graph is accurate. I only looked for teacher stats but some comparatives would be interesting. However unless you are in mining, construction or finance, the WA (mining) Boom meant an explosion of costs... cost of living, housing, finance etc etc, and 'normal/average' wages just never caught up.

Firiebob said If the pay is so good, how come they have to drop the standard so low to get teachers ?
Not having a go at you Crazy, just a thought, I'm thinking is it now such a poop job no one wants to do it ?


Lots of factors contributed to this mess in the WA Education System and most of them have nothing to do with naughty kids.

Education Dept
About 2001 some bright sparks who were so highly educated they were no earthly use, dreamed up new educational concepts- curiculum framework for intergrated teaching blah blah... then they revolutionised with the marking system into a really complex 'Level' system.... Naturally teachers were NOT HAPPY, weird reports or none, made lots of unhappy parents and eventually levels got canned.
But the Curriculum Council kept at it - they changed yr11 & 12 TEE system.... then revised all subjects including names (-now have maths 2a 2b or 3a3b, maths specialized, English 2a etc etc)...these 2009 subject curriculum are very perscriptive AND came out late. The teachers are still angry.

The median age of teachers is late 40s to mid 50s. No one likes change but these changes were mindblowingly difficult to develope, use or sell, so many good teachers retired early, and with every new change more would leave for greenier pastures.
Dont know why, but every year the paper has headlines on teacher shortages, but the letters to editor are from teachers who have applied but not been given a positions. Looks like the Ed Dept contributes to its own problems.

Mining Money
Stories of kitchen hands getting $90,000 saw potential uni students disappear, same with those that jumped into the housing boom construction industry. Also meant big increase of new families and school students coming to WA.

University admissions drop
Engineering and mining companies were heavily promoting degrees (engineering etc) that they needed, depriving Education dept of school graduates with science & maths. The uni's are also facing financial problems with low student numbers, so are pushing to take students who would normally only ever come in the backdoor (ie via TAFE or Art Degree.)

Politics and union Terror Tactics
The previous article in the 'Australian' shows how the teachers union used and abused the uncoming state election to further payclaims. Every year a couple of months before the final yr 12 exams the union would start making waves, basicly holding 17yrs futures to ransom. Frankly they went too far this time - even when they got this massive award they debated whether it was good enough.


From my interpretion of events Id say the reason why there was a shortage of teachers in the first instance was the Education Departments continual interference in the class room, number of retirees, compounded by the influx of new students and the dubious organizational skills of the dept.
The uni entrance levels are indictive of the uni's need to put butts on seats as well as a lack of suitable students. And really what 17yr old is going to bust his boiler if knows he doesnt have to...

We do have a problem staffing Kimberley and remote schools. Have friends that teach up there, they love it, but really deserve the extra for the isolation.


surfinchick
surfinchick
251 posts
251 posts
25 May 2009 10:14am
Good job CrazyTaxi. I like the way you put forward information and your opinion, without blowing your own trumpet.
elizabethb
elizabethb
QLD
2081 posts
QLD, 2081 posts
26 May 2009 11:18pm
Ok now is the time I say 7:30am-5:45 because of "year level meeting" and moderation, AND marking draft assignment.

Since I've come home, I've marked their Science drafts for this term and recorded their marks and 'effort' for the term thus far, planned homework grid for this week, and I now find myself preparing for two assessment tasks tomorrow and their buddies sporting rotations. 10:20pm. Grrr bed time instead.

PASS
greenleader
greenleader
QLD
5283 posts
QLD, 5283 posts
27 May 2009 12:16am
2 weeks holidays in two weeks time yay!

phew, the last 2 weeks holidays seems a distant 8 weeks ago!
elizabethb
elizabethb
QLD
2081 posts
QLD, 2081 posts
27 May 2009 12:32am
greenleader said...

2 weeks holidays in two weeks time yay!

phew, the last 2 weeks holidays seems a distant 8 weeks ago!


ahhh yes, two weeks holidays in FOUR and a HALF weeks... Don't start! hah

9+ hour days... I think these holidays will be time for my first trip interstate... =]
greenleader
greenleader
QLD
5283 posts
QLD, 5283 posts
27 May 2009 12:41am
i thought you were asleep! you have children to herd etc 2 morrow shhhhh
elizabethb
elizabethb
QLD
2081 posts
QLD, 2081 posts
27 May 2009 12:45am
greenleader said...

i thought you were asleep! you have children to herd etc 2 morrow shhhhh


That was the plan but the trashy Wedding Crashers is on TV....

Ahh due at school at 7:30 tomorrow for the "Walking Wheeling Wednesday" and then LOTE first up for the kids. I'm planned for the week anyway.
DavMen
DavMen
NSW
1510 posts
NSW, 1510 posts
27 May 2009 9:10am
I think in this current economic situation, where teachers probably have one of the most secure jobs in the workforce, it’s a little selfish to ask for pay rises when many are losing there jobs altogether.

IMHO it’s not great timing.
FormulaNova
FormulaNova
WA
15105 posts
WA, 15105 posts
27 May 2009 7:43am
DavMen said...

I think in this current economic situation, where teachers probably have one of the most secure jobs in the workforce, it’s a little selfish to ask for pay rises when many are losing there jobs altogether.

IMHO it’s not great timing.


I think that in a recession it is good for governments to spend more money on the public sector. They should be hiring more public servants, more police, more nurses, and maybe more teachers.

I can't see how getting wage rises would damage the economy as they are funded from a government that should be trying to spend even more money.

I think the danger would be that if they don't consistently ask for wage rises when the economy gets better they are behind again.

In theory giving public servants more money, and especially those in secure jobs, should help the economy by stimulating spending...

Red thumbs? What are they? Surely they are no match for my year12 economics!
DavMen
DavMen
NSW
1510 posts
NSW, 1510 posts
27 May 2009 10:06am
FormulaNova said...

DavMen said...

I think in this current economic situation, where teachers probably have one of the most secure jobs in the workforce, it’s a little selfish to ask for pay rises when many are losing there jobs altogether.

IMHO it’s not great timing.


I think that in a recession it is good for governments to spend more money on the public sector. They should be hiring more public servants, more police, more nurses, and maybe more teachers.

I can't see how getting wage rises would damage the economy as they are funded from a government that should be trying to spend even more money.

I think the danger would be that if they don't consistently ask for wage rises when the economy gets better they are behind again.

In theory giving public servants more money, and especially those in secure jobs, should help the economy by stimulating spending...

Red thumbs? What are they? Surely they are no match for my year12 economics!



Damage the economy - No - Selfish (ATM) yes.
Higher wages - yes - but later.
Gov. spend more money - yes - but on more jobs (not individuals already in secure work).

My main point was teachers have just about the most secure jobs around - they can at least continue day to day not worrying about losing their job, meeting mortgage repayments the economy etc.

Peace of mind that in it's self is worth $$$.
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