Most of us either did an apprentaship , went to university or Tafe after we left school. Due to the lack of apprentaships over the last 15-20 years we are now in a position where alot of the "Baby boomers" are retiring and leaving the workforce short of skilled labour.

Reducing the duration of apprentaships is not the answer I think.
Yeh competency based results are credible but the most important thing you gain from a full "old school" apprentaship is experience and common sense. You cant get that in a 2.5 year training agreement.
With the way our "killer kids" are today , the majority of them couldnt care less weither they pass or fail , mostly interested in a quick $$$.

So what is the answer???

Engineering trades are underpaid for a start. Why would you do an apprentaship if all you have to do is clean up ur drug habbit for a few weeks to get a job on a minesite earning $100k+PA???

Discuss

I joined the Navy in mid 1966 as an N.A.A. (Naval Artificer Apprentice). The Navy would intake about 120 youths (sorry, blokes only back then) from all over Australia after a fairly rigorous selection process every 6 months.

At my intake's 35 year reunion in 2001, one of our former academic instructors told us that the selection process ensured that all of the selectees were capable of achieving a Bachelor of Arts Degree or better.

R.A.N.A.T.E. (Royal Australian Navy Apprentice Training Establishment) H.M.A.S Nirimba was located at Quaker's Hill about 15 klms along the Windsor train line, north west of Blacktown, Sydney, N.S.W.

All of us were signed up for 12 years which consisted of three and a half years apprentice school, one and a half years on the job training and seven years of journeyman's service.

The trades taught at the school were:-

Fitting and Machining, combined with Marine Engineering branching into Steam or Diesel technology.

Shipwrighting which was integrated with Boilermaking and Welding.

Electrical Fitter Mechanics.

Electronics which branched into Weapons Electrical and Communications Electrical.

Aircraft Engine Fitting and Air Frame Fitting.

Military Discipline including parade ground drill, firearms handling, maintenance and use.

Remote Area Expedition and Survival Techniques.

Fire Fighting and Damage Control Methodology.

Nuclear, Biological and Chemical Defence Strategy and Practices.

I might have missed one or two but the last four were required for all trainees regardless of which technical discipline they entered.

For the first 6 months of the apprenticeship all trainees recieved the same training. This was half classroom academics continueing from our high school subjects of Maths, English and Science plus the basic hand fitting course.

The first excercise of the hand fitting course was that we each made our external and internal calipers. I still have and use my calipers that I made and learnt to use 44 years ago.

These calipers have no graduations on them. They are knock and tap calipers which combined with the feel in your fingers and a gauge will give you a measurement with a + or - .002" accuracy. I am quite prepared to trust my life on these calipers and my ability to use them.

I don't believe this kind of "hand, eye, brain co-ordination" is taught today.

Does this have any relevance in today's world? Who is to say? It still works for me and I have proven it to be just as accurate as the digital instruments currently used.

The R.A.N.A.T.E. apprenticeships were tied in with and qualified by the N.S.W. Technical College and the N.S.W. Apprenticeship Board.

In the Navy it was training, training, training with the only concession to commercial values being the time allocated to each excercise. If the test job was within tolerance and therefore technically prefect, percentage points were deducted for overtime on the completion.

I could go on for hours but you are probably bored already so I will bail up here.

Yes I am a baby boomer, born in 1950. Do I still practise my trade? Yes, but only on my own boats, cars, houses etc.

Current project, rebuilding the hollow, aerofoil shaped, steel rudder for my Van De Stadt 34 yacht. It rotted out with rust due to not being correctly seal welded in the original build.

Cheers Cisco, which is the name of the yacht.

This thread is about Skills and Training so I make the following observation.

Without being sarcastic or pointing the finger at anyone at all, it is quite obvious to me that throughout the forum, many people are lazy when it comes to expressing themselves, or, have not been taught a reasonable command of the English language.

Maths and language are core subjects of just about any education one would like to mention.

I am just a two or three finger typer and am unable to watch the screen while typeing so I have to constantly review the screen to check my script to ensure I am sending the right message.

Is this such a hard thing to do that most people just keep typing away and hope that we all get the gist of the message or is it a result of poor education?

No. My English is not perfect. Yes I do make mistakes and sometimes drop into the vernacular.

It just puzzles me that people do not write more correctly on the forum as I find writing on the computer a whole lot easier than writing by hand on a piece of paper. Cheers Cisco

i think the answer is to pay apprentices more, especially in their first and second years.
when i started my apprenticeship as a boilermaker in the early 90's i was earning less than most of my mates who were on the dole. they would be paid more to sit around and drink or go surfing than i was to get up at 5 and burn myself every day.

its all well and good to say that it pays off in the long run, (and it has), because when you are a 16 year old kid its difficult to use that sort of foresight. if there was more financial incentive, i think more kids would learn a trade.

stamp said...

i think the answer is to pay apprentices more, especially in their first and second years.
when i started my apprenticeship as a boilermaker in the early 90's i was earning less than most of my mates who were on the dole. they would be paid more to sit around and drink or go surfing than i was to get up at 5 and burn myself every day.

its all well and good to say that it pays off in the long run, (and it has), because when you are a 16 year old kid its difficult to use that sort of foresight. if there was more financial incentive, i think more kids would learn a trade.

It's about commitment with apprenticeships, and knowing what you want to do with your life. I went through the same, but I reckon way back then, that if I had to work for no pay at all...I still would've turned up each day & worked as hard as I could (as long as I was still living at home). I don't think doing an apprenticeship has paid off for me financially, but in regard to knowledge, and mental growth, I wouldn't have done things any different.

j murray said...

However, to learn to be humble,

sweep the workshop floor and assist tradeys, learn why things

are done as they are , not the way you want to do it, learn the

language reading and written, then it dosn't hurt to make year one

a test of ones determination

thats exactly what i'm talking about. despite the truth of what you have written, most 16 year olds would scoff at it. i think the whole point is to make it more attractive in the first place.

once they actually undertake an apprenticeship, then yeah, they will learn patience and to be humble, but your average kid is not going to work for noble principles.

you can beat your own chest and pat yourself on the back as much as you like, but the fact remains that most kids don't have the same sense of responsibility or commitment you obviously did when you were a teenager.

During the first three and a half years of the Navy apprenticeship we were paid $20 per fortnight with no incremental rises.

If you ran out of money you did not go on leave and stayed on the base where food and board was free. There was always something to do onboard. Sports and hobbies abounded.

On that $20 then (1966-1971) we got drunk, smoked cigarettes and drove around in our cars of a weekend.

The equivalent figure today would probably be around $300 per fortnight.

I imagine apprentices today start on at least $10/hour which for a 40 hour week would nett them $300+/week. Surely that is enough money for a 16 y.o. to pay their parents some board, run a cheap car and go out one or two nights a week??

Following a trade or profession is a discipline and throwing big money at trainees is just pandering to the "I Want It Now" attitude which is a lack of discipline.

Seems to me it would be counter productive and lead to less committed trade and professional people and a lowering of standards.

Thankyou to all for your views.

Im a Mechanical Fitter Machinist and I supervise a workshop in Perth.
I did a full 4 year aprentaship.

In my opinion the best apprentices are the ones that have been to Tafe and got a Pre vocational certificate in some sort of engineering. It is the equivilent of the first year of an apprentaship and they get thier time reduced back to 3.5 years.

I am having trouble finding really good apprentices these days.

To be a good apprentice you dont need too be the smartest person out there . The thing that counts most is that you have common sense , good work ethic and are committed to your future. If you have these 3 aspects you will become a great tradesman.

I have a concearn that our future tradesmen and women wont be at the standard of the tradesmen that have served our country over the last 50 years.
They were rather "craftsmen" than tradesmen and very intelligent.

Soooo , any one know any good kids?????

I know some complete idiots, sorry mate no. Wish I could get some good people myself [}:)]

KEARNSY said...

Thankyou to all for your views.

Im a Mechanical Fitter Machinist and I supervise a workshop in Perth.
I did a full 4 year aprentaship.

In my opinion the best apprentices are the ones that have been to Tafe and got a Pre vocational certificate in some sort of engineering. It is the equivilent of the first year of an apprentaship and they get thier time reduced back to 3.5 years.

I am having trouble finding really good apprentices these days.

To be a good apprentice you dont need too be the smartest person out there . The thing that counts most is that you have common sense , good work ethic and are committed to your future. If you have these 3 aspects you will become a great tradesman.

I have a concearn that our future tradesmen and women wont be at the standard of the tradesmen that have served our country over the last 50 years.
They were rather "craftsmen" than tradesmen and very intelligent.

Soooo , any one know any good kids?????

Kernsy same here for me, "exactly"
Here is a tip that I use and it still works, Look at kids from Rural area's
They mature faster, and have a different outlook than most

We have a hundred entering every year through the Company, and struggle to get all the data entered in their respective heads, before we turn them loose.
There is a Certified Tech school on site, and we still find it hard to get them up to speed.

What surprises me even now is some groups running massive on site mining machines that are worth close to 5-6 million, will bitch and whine about the tradesperson labour cost, when the gear goes down, even if its a prime loading tool

MintoxGT said...

I agree,

Apprentices need a bit more money and employers need more support, there is little reward for hard work and commitment from the smaller businesses.

I wish I had left school earlier and chased an apprenticeship.

I admire all those people who bit the bullet at a young age who took on an apprenticeship, on yas!

Cheers GT

I did it and never looked back, left school in year 10 (for me the best thing to do) and did my time as a spraypainter then after my time finished went on to being a paint tech then onto spare parts (automotive) and happy with what Ive acheived.
Currently sitting in my office typing this shiz so not bad from an under acheiver at school who failed at everything except woodwork & metalwork

swoosh said...

cisco said...


At my intake's 35 year reunion in 2001, one of our former academic instructors told us that the selection process ensured that all of the selectees were capable of achieving a Bachelor of Arts Degree or better.

To be honest, a retarded monkey with half its brain removed could achieve a Bachelors of Arts Degree, not only that it could then go onto a fulfilling career in a major fast food chain, or in some circumstances they could be equally useless as Prime Minister.

My point is, don't sell yourself short by comparing yourself to an Arts student, they are so low on the food chain I'm pretty sure they are classified as vegetables.

Gold swoosh silicon maybe..

doggie said...

MintoxGT said...

I agree,

Apprentices need a bit more money and employers need more support, there is little reward for hard work and commitment from the smaller businesses.

I wish I had left school earlier and chased an apprenticeship.

I admire all those people who bit the bullet at a young age who took on an apprenticeship, on yas!

Cheers GT

I did it and never looked back, left school in year 10 (for me the best thing to do) and did my time as a spraypainter then after my time finished went on to being a paint tech then onto spare parts (automotive) and happy with what Ive acheived.
Currently sitting in my office typing this shiz so not bad from an under acheiver at school who failed at everything except woodwork & metalwork

Thats awsome! Exactly what should happen

Back in 1995, my first year out of school, I worked as a clerical trainee for 12 months. 3 days on the job, 2 days at tech. I was paid $382.60/fortnight. I lived at home with my parents, I didn't own my own car, I caught the train to work (an hour and a half each way). That was plenty of money for me. These days kids all have their own cars which require petrol and new tyres each time they smoke 'em up. They're out almost every night drinking or partying so they aren't happy earning an amount similar to what I was on.

Pay apprentices more? You might get more interested kids applying, but are they really going to be suitable employees?

Kearnsy said...

"Anyone ever read a book called "Rich Dad Poor Dad" ??? The shortcut moral of the story is to work for nothing at the start and get it all later."


The moral of the story is to write ANOTHER bloody self-improvement book to flog to the wannabee millionaires so you don't have to do anything except write another bloody self-improvement book that nobody really needs !!!

ps I read it and realised I didn't need it.....those types of books are all about vague generalities.

Sailhack said...

Finding competent, trustworthy kids that were keen to learn a trade 15 years ago was relatively easy...the last couple of apprentices I trained were hard work, and didn't have the ethics that their predecessors did...

...generational thing? I blame the PARENTS!

Don't blame the parents. Most parents wish a better life on their children than they had.

Blame O.B.E (Outcome Based Education) in which the participant (I am unable to use the words student or pupil in this situation) is shown how to gain a module by answering the obvious of multiple choice answers to loaded questions.

It is a system designed to "dumb down the youth" and escalate the "teacher" up the pay scale.