Kamikuza said..

FormulaNova said..

Paddles B'mere said..
I can see a brave new world where you may need to be using the COVID-19 app to be able to enter an entertainment venue or fly on a plane

They put in place legislation specifically to prevent people getting worried about that... which is a shame as I think it has merit. I would much prefer being able to mingle freely knowing that any outbreak should be able to track those at risk much quicker.

Instead, what we get is a half conceived app, people paranoid about the government knowing that they went to Oportos twelve times in one week, and that we have a situation where some people are using, but some are not.

I wouldn't even mind if some places had the ability to insist that when you enter a place that you provide them a snapshot of your credentials so that they can contact you if needed, and then tracked exactly who you were near in that place and passed that information along on request, and told you when it was requested. This would mean you could go to larger gatherings but still have some certainty that everyone can be traced if needed.

You think denying people access to public spaces because they're not using a tracking app ... has merit?

*log man high-fives Chairman Mao*

Just wondering if anyone has an example of special powers or laws being granted in time of emergency that the government has then given up? Or not abused to punish people for unrelated "crimes"?

Yes, I think allowing people to go to events in public or private spaces that would otherwise be not permitted, by requiring them to use an app is perfectly fine. It is an opt-in.

Have you searched for any examples of special powers being granted that have been kept? What did you find?

Kamikuza said..

FormulaNova said.
Yes, I think allowing people to go to events in public or private spaces that would otherwise be not permitted, by requiring them to use an app is perfectly fine. It is an opt-in.

Have you searched for any examples of special powers being granted that have been kept? What did you find?

That's a funny way to think about opting-in.

Plenty. Patriot Act springs to mind, Terrorism Act in the UK and used punitively for all sorts of silly reasons.

The only contra I can think of is some laws in NZ that apparently had a time limit ... but once it's in, it's easy enough to renew. Call me cynical.

Yes, it is a funny way to think about opting in. It's like asking people that drive to only drive when they are wearing seatbelts.

Kamikuza said..

FormulaNova said..
Yes, it is a funny way to think about opting in. It's like asking people that drive to only drive when they are wearing seatbelts.

No it'd be like only allowing people to drive when they're being tracked wherever they go.

I am not sure you understand how the Covid19 'CovidSafe' App works. That is the app that I was referring to.

Kamikuza said..

FormulaNova said..
I am not sure you understand how the Covid19 'CovidSafe' App works. That is the app that I was referring to.

Perhaps not, but it's irrelevant as I thought we were talking about your thoughts on the application and use of such an app...

If we are talking about my thoughts on the application and the use of such an app, then it seems I understand how it works and you do not. So why are you talking about my thoughts on this if you don't even understand what I am talking about?

Kamikuza said..

FormulaNova said..

Kamikuza said..

FormulaNova said..
I am not sure you understand how the Covid19 'CovidSafe' App works. That is the app that I was referring to.

Perhaps not, but it's irrelevant as I thought we were talking about your thoughts on the application and use of such an app...

If we are talking about my thoughts on the application and the use of such an app, then it seems I understand how it works and you do not. So why are you talking about my thoughts on this if you don't even understand what I am talking about?

Because how it works and how you think it should be used are unconnected.

I don't know how a car works, but I know it should be used to drive over people.


For example.

Sorry, I don't understand your disconnected sentences. I would try and make sense of it with my own interpretation, but you don't seem to like that.

If it helps you any, the Australian Covid19 App 'CovidSafe' logs the covidsafe ID of other users using bluetooth and tries to record details of the device sending out that bluetooth signal. The idea is that it may help understand how far away that other user is, using the attributes of that handset, it estimates the distance.

It does not have any GPS information, and cannot pass this. I think this is a fundamental understanding of how this app works and is crucial to understanding what it means.

I do understand how a car works, and it would be important in knowing if I can put my head right next to the water pump or not.

Kamikuza said..
Are you intentionally being obtuse again, or just mixing your metaphors?

It doesn't matter *how* it works.

It matters how it's use is *regulated*.

I can't make that any simpler.


....

It doesn't have to track you GPS coordinates to trace where you've been and who you've been in contact with, does it? Imagine having the data abs what it could mean, and how it's linked to your phone.

Honestly, I admit it's a bit paranoid but you should read up on the what "they" can figure out about individuals by mining "anonymous" data...

Of course it matters how it works. Simple or not, your logic does not stand up.

Kamikuza said..

FormulaNova said..

Kamikuza said..
Are you intentionally being obtuse again, or just mixing your metaphors?

It doesn't matter *how* it works.

It matters how it's use is *regulated*.

I can't make that any simpler.


....

It doesn't have to track you GPS coordinates to trace where you've been and who you've been in contact with, does it? Imagine having the data abs what it could mean, and how it's linked to your phone.

Honestly, I admit it's a bit paranoid but you should read up on the what "they" can figure out about individuals by mining "anonymous" data...

Of course it matters how it works. Simple or not, your logic does not stand up.

If you can't see how demanding "papers" and curtailing freedom of movement while simultaneously tracking who you interact with could be put to nefarious use, then I admire your naivete.

It would certainly make ratting on your neighbors a lot easier.

You could have just written ' I think that demanding papers and blah blah blah... easier' in the beginning.

Instead you commented on my thoughts of using the App. Strange way to get there, but it would have been easier just saying that you disagreed instead of the detour.

I guess it is not a question really anyway as people will vote with their feet and choose not to use the app and as a result take the risk that we cannot contact trace quickly enough. All good if infection rates are low, but not if they go high.

No matter what others pretend, we do give up a certain amount of freedoms to participate in society, we just don't worry ourselves about them too much.

I want to drive my car - well, you have to abide by these laws, and wearing a seatbelt is one of them.

I want to travel to international destinations - well you can, you just need to meet these security requirements.

I want to own a gun - well you can, you just need to satisfy these requirements.

I want to have a safe and low crime environnment - you can, but you must also be prepared to abide by those same rules.

As I am just talking to myself at this point, I wonder what the victims of the Spanish Flu would have thought if they had been given the option of limiting their freedoms for a while or dying? Its sobering to think that its called the 'Spanish' flu because Spain at the time did not control their media in a way to prevent them publishing the details, so others assumed it was just in Spain. Not realising that it was almost everywhere and the media in those countries were not revealing it.

I could picture myself being angry about not being informed, but more angry if the particular area I lived in decided to tackle to problem in a way that made the disease more rampant. History shows that some places implemented policies that controlled it quite well and others did not.

westozwind said..
Still borked on iPhone
www.theregister.com/2020/06/16/covidsafe_update_ios_issues_persist/

actually I have to say, even on Android it's hardly easy. You have to manually set Android to allow it to run in the background otherwise it halts it and CovidSafe itself doesn't run until you correct it.

I mistakenly thought just allowing the permission on the app's settings itself would fix it, but apparently not! I think I understand phones a lot better than many others and it still had me confused. Maybe that's the limitations of the way these ecosystems work?

We're all frogs...

The boiling frog is a fable describing a frog being slowly boiled alive. The premise is that if a frog is put suddenly into boiling water, it will jump out, but if the frog is put in tepid water which is then brought to a boil slowly, it will not perceive the danger and will be cooked to death. The story is often used as a metaphor for the inability or unwillingness of people to react to or be aware of sinister threats that arise gradually rather than suddenly.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boiling_frog#:~:text=The%20boiling%20frog%20is%20a,will%20be%20cooked%20to%20death.

petermac33 said..
FN is super naive or is a NWO bot or shill.

No one can possibly be so dumb as to not see the dangers.

Yes they can.

I think there is a huge difference between people that see shadows behind everything they see and people that intelligently examine something to see if it has problems. Sometimes there are problems. Sometimes there are not.

Unfortunately we seem to have a surplus of the first type of people.

I can imagine 'you guys' on the Titanic.. Radio? No, I heard that causes cancer. Turn it off! We crashed into an iceberg? No way! Maybe we should have listened to the warnings?

petermac33 said..
FN is super naive or is a NWO bot or shill.

No one can possibly be so dumb as to not see the dangers.

I can't believe it. We are two bots that are discussing something. The rise of AI!

NWO! NWO! NWO!

Super naive? Nah, probably the opposite and too cynical. I envy people sometimes that are not bothered by things. Simple idiots that have a much happier life. They are not simple or idiots, but sometimes I do admire their outlook.

Dumb would be "knowing the earth is flat" but too afraid to do simple tests to check it out.

Isn't it sad that there are so many idiots out there that will believe this stuff because they are too lazy to actually listen to the talks, and try and understand what Bill Gates is trying to do.

Be careful! He is preparing to deploy low maintenance nuclear power plants, not to help the world, but to blow everyone up! For sure!

Paddles B'mere said..
I agree airmail, it will never completely remove the risk but adds an increased level of assurance. But most importantly, it will allow quicker tracing of transmissions and maybe help science understand transmissions better. or my LNP mates will get another sackload of sweet sweet taxpayer cash