Beginners at Safety Bay!!!

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WA Surf & Foil
WA Surf & Foil
WA
250 posts
WA, 250 posts
10 Dec 2011 9:24am
Seems every day I am now politely and or not so politely telling guys and girls to please not learn in the POND area of Safety Bay

We have recently seen the kite in the powerlines situation which has flared a lot of interest from the council and newspapers, I have heard all the excuses that you dont like choppy or deep water if this is the case then please look for another sport.

I will be having a meeting soon with the council to enforce these concerns.

I would appreciate a bit more support from local kiters who would rather express their concerns to me rather than confronting the person direct.

There are lots of great learning areas in the area, DONT try and mix it with the advanced riders until you have paid your dues.

Yours sincerely
The angry old dood at the pond!!
TurtleHunter
TurtleHunter
WA
1675 posts
WA, 1675 posts
10 Dec 2011 10:36am
Haha old dude
ApatheticEnd
ApatheticEnd
WA
995 posts
WA, 995 posts
10 Dec 2011 1:31pm
I was at the pond yesterday and it seemed to be running pretty well despite the crowd. There were a few less than competent kiters but everyone that I spoke to/launched/landed was a tourist and most ended up going out the back.. Like someone said yesterday, "it's like learning to ride a bicycle on the freeway".

I'm one to talk, I got dragged nearly all the way across the mouth pond trying to relaunch my 12 after I tomahawked it.
puppetonastring
puppetonastring
WA
3619 posts
WA, 3619 posts
10 Dec 2011 2:00pm
WOK said...

Yours sincerely
The angry old dood at the pond!!



OMG Ur one I would never had thought of admitting to 'old'
Sounds like a serious mid life crisis to me

Give u the tip WOK - Sorry to say BUT 'old' is just as bad as you have always thought it was.
D3
D3
WA
1577 posts
D3 D3
WA, 1577 posts
11 Dec 2011 7:00am
I agree, the pond is not the place for beginners.

If you're worried about chop or deep water, why not try the sand bar near Penguin Island, plenty of room downwind if you need time to recover after doing something inelegant
Lofty
Lofty
WA
87 posts
WA, 87 posts
11 Dec 2011 1:59pm
Its deep but makes you pratice your upwind body dragging to recover your board
werty
werty
WA
119 posts
WA, 119 posts
11 Dec 2011 2:37pm
I am local
Safety Bay is my home

I do not ride the pond
because everytime I do I end up going off at someone
for 'not having a clue', silly stupid things, that should be common knowledge

The local boys had it sussed a few seasons ago, with a good clear
circuit that worked, but that slowly got destroyed with ignorance and not givin a @#ck about others

This is a intermediate kiting spot, that has been drowned with 'look at me blowins'
and of course us locals will tell you where to go except there is properly only 10% locals riding at any time.
Lines have been cut in the past

So if you get informed please have a brain and go elsewhere.



SammyJ
SammyJ
WA
571 posts
WA, 571 posts
11 Dec 2011 9:29pm
I have a feeling the END is near.

My reason is that after the recent incident with the power line, there will be significant pressure on the council from the non kiting community to have it banned. That one incident may not be enough to sway them but from what I saw today at the pond I think there will be more incidents to come unless there is a drastic change in the level of kiters who go to the area. Today was a marginal 15-18 knots at most, there was kites going down through the dunes out the back, kooks standing in the middle of the pond with kites at lunch tuned incorrectly, girl doing backrolls and crap like that for the camera in close with kite above kiddies heads with their buckets and spade on the shore. I can go on and on but you get the idea.

I also live in Safety Bay and unfortunately don't kite the pond for the last 2 seasons, I went down today to see a friend from work and try his kite. I won't hurry back as I have heaps of other spots without the drama, I do however feel for friends who will be affected if there is a ban imposed.

Unfortunately there not much the local group can do, there's simply to many vivistors to try and be diplomatic. About 2 years ago we identified that this day would come. A few guys took it a pone themselves to correct and guide people politely, but it became to hard. Lines have been cut, people have been threatened and told to reimburse others for damage after a f#ck ups.

At the end of the day it's the teuros that come in their wicked campers on a tight arse budget so they can try and last the season here, effectively spending no money to help our community and local business. When the council realise it's non locals and it's a non money spinner for the local economy it will ultimately be banned IMO. I certainly hope not for my friends sake but I'm just playing the devils advocate.

Yours Sincerely
The grumpier, but younger old dude not from the pond anymore!!
Shayne86
Shayne86
WA
189 posts
WA, 189 posts
12 Dec 2011 8:21pm
SammyJ said...

A few guys took it a pone themselves to correct and guide people politely, but it became to hard. Lines have been cut, people have been threatened and told to reimburse others for damage after a f#ck ups.



WTF!? Im getting a very strong feeling here on this forum that everyone was born gods gift to kiting and never actually had to learn to kite, they just picked up and started busting out back rolls or whatever in the first 15minutes on the water?!?!?!?!

Im only still learning but its hearing about s.h.i.t like this that makes me not want to go upto a fellow kiter to ask for a hand when landing/launching or even going anywere near other kiters o the water for fear of having my nice new gear ruined all because im still learning and might make a mistake. . . . .

I know thats a lil off topic but i just got a lil fired up reading that comment. Feel free to flame away lol
tgladman
tgladman
WA
500 posts
WA, 500 posts
12 Dec 2011 8:32pm
Shayne86 said...

SammyJ said...

A few guys took it a pone themselves to correct and guide people politely, but it became to hard. Lines have been cut, people have been threatened and told to reimburse others for damage after a f#ck ups.



WTF!? Im getting a very strong feeling here on this forum that everyone was born gods gift to kiting and never actually had to learn to kite, they just picked up and started busting out back rolls or whatever in the first 15minutes on the water?!?!?!?!

Im only still learning but its hearing about s.h.i.t like this that makes me not want to go upto a fellow kiter to ask for a hand when landing/launching or even going anywere near other kiters o the water for fear of having my nice new gear ruined all because im still learning and might make a mistake. . . . .

I know thats a lil off topic but i just got a lil fired up reading that comment. Feel free to flame away lol

I think u missed the point shayne, learners aren't the problem. The location is. The pond is way too busy and not a good spot at all for learners
Underoath
Underoath
QLD
2434 posts
QLD, 2434 posts
12 Dec 2011 10:33pm
Shayne86 said...

SammyJ said...

A few guys took it a pone themselves to correct and guide people politely, but it became to hard. Lines have been cut, people have been threatened and told to reimburse others for damage after a f#ck ups.



WTF!? Im getting a very strong feeling here on this forum that everyone was born gods gift to kiting and never actually had to learn to kite, they just picked up and started busting out back rolls or whatever in the first 15minutes on the water?!?!?!?!

Im only still learning but its hearing about s.h.i.t like this that makes me not want to go upto a fellow kiter to ask for a hand when landing/launching or even going anywere near other kiters o the water for fear of having my nice new gear ruined all because im still learning and might make a mistake. . . . .

I know thats a lil off topic but i just got a lil fired up reading that comment. Feel free to flame away lol



Good advice would be to avoid other kiters for atleast the first 6 months of kiting.
You should pick it up quickly,

I live at Dog Beach and avoided Scabs like the plauge because I knew my ability wasnt that crash hot.


WA66
WA66
WA
138 posts
WA, 138 posts
13 Dec 2011 9:05am
WOK said...

Seems every day I am now politely and or not so politely telling guys and girls to please not learn in the POND area of Safety Bay

We have recently seen the kite in the powerlines situation which has flared a lot of interest from the council and newspapers, I have heard all the excuses that you dont like choppy or deep water if this is the case then please look for another sport.

I will be having a meeting soon with the council to enforce these concerns.

I would appreciate a bit more support from local kiters who would rather express their concerns to me rather than confronting the person direct.

There are lots of great learning areas in the area, DONT try and mix it with the advanced riders until you have paid your dues.

Yours sincerely
The angry old dood at the pond!!



WOW ! Let's get back to the original post shall we.
Don't learn in the pond beginners? Leave it for the experienced kiters?Who do you guys think you are?
How about you all depart the area and leave it for us experienced and beginner windsurfers as we were there long before you were? We all managed it just fine.
So are you guys gonna abuse me if i come through the area on my windsurfer or do i get respect for over 20 years of sailing the area and being there long before most?
Hang on a minute, i used to snorkel for crabs there as a kid before there was windsurfers, so it goes on...

Now how about we all be sensible. You don't own the area just like we don't.
We all need to get on and share it. The ownership attitude will be your downfall.
If that happens us windsurfers will still be there though after the fall out, kinda like cockroaches hehehe.
The only way to sort it is by education. A bit of friendliness would help too.
I am just trying to help you guys out before you do get banned.
Come on Sammy, you know what i mean !
Peace out.
dusta
dusta
WA
2940 posts
WA, 2940 posts
13 Dec 2011 9:21am
Shayne86 said...

SammyJ said...

A few guys took it a pone themselves to correct and guide people politely, but it became to hard. Lines have been cut, people have been threatened and told to reimburse others for damage after a f#ck ups.



WTF!? Im getting a very strong feeling here on this forum that everyone was born gods gift to kiting and never actually had to learn to kite, they just picked up and started busting out back rolls or whatever in the first 15minutes on the water?!?!?!?!

Im only still learning but its hearing about s.h.i.t like this that makes me not want to go upto a fellow kiter to ask for a hand when landing/launching or even going anywere near other kiters o the water for fear of having my nice new gear ruined all because im still learning and might make a mistake. . . . .

I know thats a lil off topic but i just got a lil fired up reading that comment. Feel free to flame away lol


go around to penguin island , much friendlier people and no arrogant tosspots
Shayne86
Shayne86
WA
189 posts
WA, 189 posts
13 Dec 2011 10:02am
^^^^

im up in gero so bit of a long drive
WA66
WA66
WA
138 posts
WA, 138 posts
13 Dec 2011 1:48pm
PS I am keen to hear from anyone that knows at what point you can classify someone as no longer a learner and advanced enough to be able to enter the holy waters of the pond?
Even more so how this will be decided, who will decide this, who will enforce this etc...
rickwindt
rickwindt
WA
245 posts
WA, 245 posts
13 Dec 2011 3:21pm
WA66 said...

WOK said...

Seems every day I am now politely and or not so politely telling guys and girls to please not learn in the POND area of Safety Bay

We have recently seen the kite in the powerlines situation which has flared a lot of interest from the council and newspapers, I have heard all the excuses that you dont like choppy or deep water if this is the case then please look for another sport.

I will be having a meeting soon with the council to enforce these concerns.

I would appreciate a bit more support from local kiters who would rather express their concerns to me rather than confronting the person direct.

There are lots of great learning areas in the area, DONT try and mix it with the advanced riders until you have paid your dues.

Yours sincerely
The angry old dood at the pond!!



WOW ! Let's get back to the original post shall we.
Don't learn in the pond beginners? Leave it for the experienced kiters?Who do you guys think you are?
How about you all depart the area and leave it for us experienced and beginner windsurfers as we were there long before you were? We all managed it just fine.
So are you guys gonna abuse me if i come through the area on my windsurfer or do i get respect for over 20 years of sailing the area and being there long before most?
Hang on a minute, i used to snorkel for crabs there as a kid before there was windsurfers, so it goes on...

Now how about we all be sensible. You don't own the area just like we don't.
We all need to get on and share it. The ownership attitude will be your downfall.
If that happens us windsurfers will still be there though after the fall out, kinda like cockroaches hehehe.
The only way to sort it is by education. A bit of friendliness would help too.
I am just trying to help you guys out before you do get banned.
Come on Sammy, you know what i mean !
Peace out.


yes I fully agree. Nobody owns this place. Not intermediates, not beginners, not even pro's. We all just need to get along and help each other out.

It is stupid to kick the beginners out and send them elsewhere, cause when they are all in one place in a different spot (like Melville) then that spot will be banned sooner or later and they'd all have to go somewhere else again which then will also get banned if they don't got taught the guidelines properly. And that way we lose all kitespots just because all beginners are bunched up.

Why not dispurse the beginners, teach them proper guidelines, talk to them when you see something dangerous at least then they can learn from more intermediate riders and avoid accidents in the future
siwalker
siwalker
WA
195 posts
WA, 195 posts
13 Dec 2011 6:03pm
Beginner kiters should not kite at the pond. Not because the experienced guys want more room, and not because anyone was there first!

Beginner kiters should not kite at the pond, as it is a dangerous spot for beginners. Not only is it an onshore location upwind of trees, fences, roads, pedestrians, but also it is a very busy spot. The local kiters there do endeavor to share the water with everyone that was there before us. The windsurfers, the fishermen, the kids playing in the shallows. Beginners will not be able to avoid any of the above in any level of accident. Advanced riders can maneuver out of the way of other water users, and should in most cases be able to avoid an accident.

People harp on about the locals kiters at safety bay, but all we are trying to do is to keep the pond open to kiters. We suggest alternate spots to people we recognize as not at a level to be able to avoid incident.

We only get frustrated and angry at the number of people who come to ride there (who are welcome, of course, it isn't our beach), when we get told to f&@$ off, and have to watch as our local beach deteriates into a chaotic mess, and then becomes banned due to the behavior of kiters who will be gone in a few months.
WA66
WA66
WA
138 posts
WA, 138 posts
13 Dec 2011 10:37pm
siwalker said...

Beginner kiters should not kite at the pond. Not because the experienced guys want more room, and not because anyone was there first!

Beginner kiters should not kite at the pond, as it is a dangerous spot for beginners. Not only is it an onshore location upwind of trees, fences, roads, pedestrians, but also it is a very busy spot. The local kiters there do endeavor to share the water with everyone that was there before us. The windsurfers, the fishermen, the kids playing in the shallows. Beginners will not be able to avoid any of the above in any level of accident. Advanced riders can maneuver out of the way of other water users, and should in most cases be able to avoid an accident.

People harp on about the locals kiters at safety bay, but all we are trying to do is to keep the pond open to kiters. We suggest alternate spots to people we recognize as not at a level to be able to avoid incident.

We only get frustrated and angry at the number of people who come to ride there (who are welcome, of course, it isn't our beach), when we get told to f&@$ off, and have to watch as our local beach deteriates into a chaotic mess, and then becomes banned due to the behavior of kiters who will be gone in a few months.


According to your rationale - experienced = no accidents or the ability to avoid them.
Sorry but that's truly laughable.

The more you kiters argue amongst each other that one has some priority over another then the greater the chance you can wave goodbye to kiting the pond.
The sooner you realise you need to share and band together the better you will be.
Additionally Tern Island (the sand bar) is a no go zone except from the waters edge to the high tide mark as birds nest amongst the vegetation at certain times. A lot of kiters pay scant regard to that, there's another nail in your coffin for using the area.
Sorry but i am being realistic and trying to help.
tgladman
tgladman
WA
500 posts
WA, 500 posts
13 Dec 2011 11:40pm
WA66 said...

siwalker said...

Beginner kiters should not kite at the pond. Not because the experienced guys want more room, and not because anyone was there first!

Beginner kiters should not kite at the pond, as it is a dangerous spot for beginners. Not only is it an onshore location upwind of trees, fences, roads, pedestrians, but also it is a very busy spot. The local kiters there do endeavor to share the water with everyone that was there before us. The windsurfers, the fishermen, the kids playing in the shallows. Beginners will not be able to avoid any of the above in any level of accident. Advanced riders can maneuver out of the way of other water users, and should in most cases be able to avoid an accident.

People harp on about the locals kiters at safety bay, but all we are trying to do is to keep the pond open to kiters. We suggest alternate spots to people we recognize as not at a level to be able to avoid incident.

We only get frustrated and angry at the number of people who come to ride there (who are welcome, of course, it isn't our beach), when we get told to f&@$ off, and have to watch as our local beach deteriates into a chaotic mess, and then becomes banned due to the behavior of kiters who will be gone in a few months.


According to your rationale - experienced = no accidents or the ability to avoid them.
Sorry but that's truly laughable.

The more you kiters argue amongst each other that one has some priority over another then the greater the chance you can wave goodbye to kiting the pond.
The sooner you realise you need to share and band together the better you will be.
Additionally Tern Island (the sand bar) is a no go zone except from the waters edge to the high tide mark as birds nest amongst the vegetation at certain times. A lot of kiters pay scant regard to that, there's another nail in your coffin for using the area.
Sorry but i am being realistic and trying to help.

It's laughable to think that a very small area close to a road and highly congested is an acceptable place for learners and experienced kiters to band together and get along. Common sense is a great tool to work out if one should kite there. If u were learning, y on earth would u want to be anywhere near that mess? I'm not saying u don't have a right to like everyone else but seriously unless it was deserted...??
Subsonic
Subsonic
WA
3425 posts
WA, 3425 posts
14 Dec 2011 12:01am
WA66 said...

WOK said...

Seems every day I am now politely and or not so politely telling guys and girls to please not learn in the POND area of Safety Bay

We have recently seen the kite in the powerlines situation which has flared a lot of interest from the council and newspapers, I have heard all the excuses that you dont like choppy or deep water if this is the case then please look for another sport.

I will be having a meeting soon with the council to enforce these concerns.

I would appreciate a bit more support from local kiters who would rather express their concerns to me rather than confronting the person direct.

There are lots of great learning areas in the area, DONT try and mix it with the advanced riders until you have paid your dues.

Yours sincerely
The angry old dood at the pond!!



WOW ! Let's get back to the original post shall we.
Don't learn in the pond beginners? Leave it for the experienced kiters?Who do you guys think you are?
How about you all depart the area and leave it for us experienced and beginner windsurfers as we were there long before you were? We all managed it just fine.
So are you guys gonna abuse me if i come through the area on my windsurfer or do i get respect for over 20 years of sailing the area and being there long before most?
Hang on a minute, i used to snorkel for crabs there as a kid before there was windsurfers, so it goes on...

Now how about we all be sensible. You don't own the area just like we don't.
We all need to get on and share it. The ownership attitude will be your downfall.
If that happens us windsurfers will still be there though after the fall out, kinda like cockroaches hehehe.
The only way to sort it is by education. A bit of friendliness would help too.
I am just trying to help you guys out before you do get banned.
Come on Sammy, you know what i mean !
Peace out.


I can remember walking round at safety bay when I was a kid, the only sign of the point that makes the pond then was a small shallow mound just breaking the water surface out offshore, I wonder what it'll look like in another 10/20 years?
WA66
WA66
WA
138 posts
WA, 138 posts
14 Dec 2011 8:55am
Exactly tgladman, all comes down to common sense, respect and courtesy.
On the flipside if you are an advanced rider why would you want to be anywhere near that congested mess of beginners?
All depends which side you look at it from.

You can also question why any kiters went there in the first place as was so congested with windsurfers?
By the way, it used to be deserted once, well until us windsurfers came on the scene.
As a local that has sailed the pond (pre pond too) since the 1980's i was disappointed to see kiters encroach on 'our' turf not so long ago and get in the way, but you know what i accept that is how it is and we just have to get along. Its no different to the current issue of advanced kiter vs beginners. If you don't like it cause it's too congested, there are too many beginners or whatever, then go somewhere else. It's not your right to be there cause you are this or that.
I have had to go elsewhere.
99% of the time you won't catch me in the pond and i have been a local experienced windsurfer all that time.
Just how it is.

Subsonic - Safety Bay actually used to be a bay of water right inland bordered by Hawker St and June Rd roughly, so it's constantly changing.
I remember on high tide the bar would totally disappear.
Reminds me i have some aerial photogrpahs somewhere from a long time ago of the area, see if i can find em and post em up.
WA66
WA66
WA
138 posts
WA, 138 posts
14 Dec 2011 9:42am
Here you are people.
Safety Bay in 1942 !!!


See the white dot?
That's me on my experimental windsurfer...
rickwindt
rickwindt
WA
245 posts
WA, 245 posts
14 Dec 2011 10:10am
If safety bay is such a dangerous place for beginners because of the road and stuff then Melville beach is probably even worse because it barely even has a beach, it is cluttered with trees, it has a road a few meters from the water and there are a lot of houses staight on the beach. Yet there are probably more beginners at Melville than anywhere else in Perth.

I reckon the reason is most likely that they both have flat, shallow water. Can anyone suggest any places that have flat, shallow water that does not have any dangers? surely there would be some places like that..

I know that some experienced riders are gonna say: go into waves and deep water pay your dues!! but I reckon that is a load of bullsh!te because that only makes kiting harder and more dangerous for beginners and with that also for experienced riders. Surely the experienced riders out there started of in shallow waters too.

anyone prepared to write a list of places that you reckon are fine for beginners? no danger and easier te learn?
dbabicwa
dbabicwa
WA
809 posts
WA, 809 posts
14 Dec 2011 11:15am
^^^ Flat water? Bibra Lake...After this much of rain should be full...
puppetonastring
puppetonastring
WA
3619 posts
WA, 3619 posts
14 Dec 2011 11:49am
Subsonic said...
[, I wonder what it'll look like in another 10/20 years?



When we were working through the issue with the council, rangers etc to develop the guidelines that are now in place for the pond there was one delegate who was an expert in these things.
His opinion is that the pond has a very short potential life span - as in years not decades.
My 2c on this whole thing is that the pond represents one of only two kite beaches which are ideally suitable for freestylers to strut their stuff. Beginners, lawn mowers, even kick arse freeriders have any number of places suited to their needs which freestylers cant make use of. Why cant we make room for everyone to follow their chosen passion. Leave the pond to those who havent got as many choices.

As for beginners - its definitely a No Go. Its offshore with major dangers downwind. Its also far too sensitive with other parties. We won the concessions to keep it as a kite beach - but only just. It wont take much for that to change then no-one will be kiting the area at all.
rickwindt
rickwindt
WA
245 posts
WA, 245 posts
14 Dec 2011 11:52am
puppetonastring said...

Subsonic said...
[, I wonder what it'll look like in another 10/20 years?



When we were working through the issue with the council, rangers etc to develop the guidelines that are now in place for the pond there was one delegate who was an expert in these things.
His opinion is that the pond has a very short potential life span - as in years not decades.
My 2c on this whole thing is that the pond represents one of only two kite beaches which are ideally suitable for freestylers to strut their stuff. Beginners, lawn mowers, even kick arse freeriders have any number of places suited to their needs which freestylers cant make use of. Why cant we make room for everyone to follow their chosen passion. Leave the pond to those who havent got as many choices.

As for beginners - its definitely a No Go. Its offshore with major dangers downwind. Its also far too sensitive with other parties. We won the concessions to keep it as a kite beach - but only just. It wont take much for that to change then no-one will be kiting the area at all.


good work mate!
rickwindt
rickwindt
WA
245 posts
WA, 245 posts
14 Dec 2011 12:00pm
dbabicwa said...

^^^ Flat water? Bibra Lake...After this much of rain should be full...


if only we had some lakes that we could use! really woulndt be all that bad!
WA66
WA66
WA
138 posts
WA, 138 posts
14 Dec 2011 12:42pm
Freestyling and wake jumping is prohibited :
• within any speed restricted area;
• within 30 metres of another PWC;
• within 50 metres of another vessel or person in
the water.

This was taken from the Dept of Transport Rockingham Boating Guide - Feb 2011.
Interesting reading.
Whether a skier or kiter, sure it applies.
So i guess that means beginner or advanced is breaking the rules in the pond, which in the same document is classified as a mooring area.
No mention of the kiting/windsurfing zones.

www.transport.wa.gov.au/mediaFiles/mar_rb_Rockingham-0211.pdf
Jonopark
Jonopark
WA
400 posts
WA, 400 posts
14 Dec 2011 12:56pm
When I grow up (if I grow up) I'm going to teach my kids to drive, in peak hour traffic. Learn to park the car, on Thursday night at late night shopping. Teach them to ride a bike, on a bmx track. Learn to swim, in waves. Learn to surf, at the box. Would you call me a bad parent???
Disclaimer. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion. I have never kited here on summer (or weekend) but when making an opinion or decision (reasonable) people should look at all factors available to them to make the best decision.
rickwindt
rickwindt
WA
245 posts
WA, 245 posts
14 Dec 2011 1:00pm
Jonopark said...

When I grow up (if I grow up) I'm going to teach my kids to drive, in peak hour traffic. Learn to park the car, on Thursday night at late night shopping. Teach them to ride a bike, on a bmx track. Learn to swim, in waves. Learn to surf, at the box. Would you call me a bad parent???
Disclaimer. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion. I have never kited here on summer (or weekend) but when making an opinion or decision (reasonable) people should look at all factors available to them to make the best decision.


would you teach your kid to kite in waves and deep water? the beginners tend to be in these sort o places because of it's shallow 'waveless' waters
WA66
WA66
WA
138 posts
WA, 138 posts
14 Dec 2011 1:10pm
Perhaps we need legislation so that all probationary kiters wear a bib with a bright red P on it. Sure you kiters can manage wearing something over the top of your wet suits...
Will be just like on the roads.
Oh, hang on, P platers have as much right to use any road as any experienced driver dont' they...
Wow, how could i have been so silly to think an advanced driver has more rights than them.
Then again maybe P platers should only be allowed to drive on roads us experienced drivers don't deem as suited to our skills, levels of prowess cause there isn't another like it anywhere.
Hope nobody else on here thinks like me...
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