It's as good as over!

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keep surfin
keep surfin
WA
40 posts
WA, 40 posts
17 Jan 2009 4:44pm
Saffer said...

Mr float said...
So what do you and the others who are thinking along these lines suggest ?(please note i am not making a smart arse 'trying to catch you out post') I (and I am sure others ) are interested in alternate ideas


I'm just pointing out that self regulation has not worked in the past and is highly unlikely to work in future because you are relying on everyone to be disciplined and lets me honest, they're not. Spend some time on the trams and trains in Melbourne and have a look at some of the youth coming through. They feel nothing to swear at adults and call elderly women c**nt's to their faces, and have no respect for anyone including themselves. I've seen youngsters in the gold coast boast about getting their ex-girlfriends beaten up by other girls and the fact that they have already been to court for assault...and this behaviour they are proud of. I've had a beer bottle thrown at me because I had the ordacity to honk my horn at 4 idiots who decided to walk across the road at a traffic light about 5 seconds after it had gone green for the cars and then decided to walk at 1km/h forcing the traffic for them to wait. We've been lucky that not many of these Neanderthals have got involved in kiting, but they coming. We've only had to deal with the everyday morons, imagine how bad its going to be when these idiots get given kites by their parents who would do anything to keep them off the streets and away from drugs and alcohol.

Australia is already far more regulated than a lot of places I've been to. If you think regulation isn't coming, you are kidding yourself. Improvements in self-regulation may delay the inevitable but as Rob from KBV pointed out, when you have guys doing tricks right near shore who nearly decapitate an elderly man walking with his dog, you're eventually going to find yourself in a position where regulation is imposed upon us (by councils) or complete bans for surburban beaches forcing people to travel 100km's to the nearest quiet beach.

Licensing in scuba diving was imposed voluntarily primarily for insurance reasons. In the old days, when you dived on your own, nobody cared if you came up too quickly and removed yourself from the planet. Then lawsuits arrived and shops had to cover themselves when shops got sued for selling equipment to people who didn't know how to use it. The insurance companies would not cover people without formal regulations in place to protect them and hence regulation became a norm. Up till that point, training was optional for recreational divers and only mandatory for commercial divers. The problem with kiting is you have a lot of shops out to make a quick buck and hence, they have no intention of enforcing training on people if it means losing out on a $2000 kite sale, after all, if they don't sell to the guy, he'll buy from another unscrupulous supplier who will. Without formal certifications, how can you tell if a guy knows how to kite?

If I was to try solve this, I'd do it the following way. Firstly, you'd need all the retailers on board to agree to enforce mandatory training or to check certification on sales. You'd also need distributors to agree not to supply kites to those who don't adhere to this. You'd need everyone to agree to the type of certification (IKO level 3 or whatever is appropriate - I'm not saying IKO is ideal, you may decide on an AKSA equivalent) as a minimum benchmark for entrance into the sport. If the retailers won't agree, it maybe be worth reminding them that most of their business comes from people seeing kiting on popular beaches so if its banned there, their business is going to dry up pretty quickly.

You'd also need to agree with the council that it is sign posted that a minimum level is required for kiting at any urban kiting spots. Once you have that done, it would be impossible to enforce everyone to retake the IKO level that you specify, so you'd need a 6 month cooling off period where all existing kiter's are able to get a certification simply by demonstrating their ability to do a couple of basics things like stay upwind, jump etc. You could charge a nominal once off fee for this, say $30 which gives you some tags for your kite so if the coast guard find it they know who to contact, the cost of card processing, admin and to cover the instructors 5 minutes. There you have a life time card which the member can then use as his right to kite suburban beaches. In applying for their registration, you would have a set of terms and conditions which include behaviour, rules and regulations, and information on how their registration can be revoked if they behave like an idiot.

Now, the advantage with this type of setup is simple. Firstly, no annual fee's unless they join the local body. The council says you must be certified to ride the beach, it doesn't have to police the beach, the schools and anyone else can. They simply walk up, ask the guy for proof (which should be attached to his kite or on a card). For guys who act like idiots, the organisation may choose to revoke their registration (they would need a code of conduct) for repeat offences thereby removing the person's ability to kite at busier spots. The tag on the kite makes it easy to spot non-registered members. The council doesn't have to manage this, the local organisation can, and in doing so, can manage offenders without having to call in the council unless the offender attempts to ride at a particular spot after his registration has been revoked. No annual cost, semi-self regulated.

Of course, this is an idea I've come up with in the last 20 minutes, so feel free to rip it to pieces or make better suggestions.


There are some pretty good points there. Combine that with the signs idea an we may be on to a winner.... time to get the ball rolling?
Kitehard
Kitehard
WA
2782 posts
WA, 2782 posts
17 Jan 2009 4:47pm
fver said...

Hello,

Placing signs at the entrances of the beaches is possibly a good approach to decrease wrong behavior from uneducated and inconsiderate kiters.

Showing both WAKSA and the Local Authority's name on the signs, would also decrease rivality between kiters and other beach users.

Fred






Sorry to be the wet blanket, but people ignore signs. There is a BIG sign at Dutchies south of Cott. It says you cannot rig or launch off the beach at the foot of the stairs.

I noticed a group of kiters started to rig up so I went in and informed them of the rules. Only 1 kiter moved the 100m required to do the right thing, the rest ignored me and my second request after nothing happened and continued to rig and launched from the banned beach. They said there was no one watching so it should be ok.

There you have it gentlement, the very reason why we need to be regulated. Because too many don't give a sh1t about anyone but themselves. This type of behaviour is exhibited by at least half of the kiting population in one form or another and is the reason why eventually, we'll be phucked.

Good winds,



asybarite
asybarite
NSW
41 posts
NSW, 41 posts
17 Jan 2009 6:49pm
If signs are an answer .....
need to engage local authority for permission to erect
cost could be borne by AKSA

as to managing show-offs endangering others ... they're generally good riders and unfortunately don't want to be told by some intermediate/average joe
stabber
stabber
NSW
1114 posts
NSW, 1114 posts
17 Jan 2009 7:11pm
I wish this topic was "as good as over"
stabber
stabber
NSW
1114 posts
NSW, 1114 posts
17 Jan 2009 7:12pm
It's never over until the fat lady slaps her thighs together!..... and rnt I the lucky one that can have a sponsors banner in between my posts!!^^^^^^^
sandgroper
sandgroper
WA
368 posts
WA, 368 posts
17 Jan 2009 5:21pm
The WAKSA site has a code of sorts called C.L.E.A.R. (www.hugedomains.com/domain_profile.cfm?d=waksa&e=com) which is kind of aspiring to the 15 point Surfer Code of Ethics (www.surfrider.org.au/about/surfethics.php) but not quite getting there.

I think CLEAR is something WAKSA could improve on. It needs to evolve into a holistic code of ethics rather than just the kiter oriented safety checklist it is now.

WAKSA asserts to be the representative for "promoting safety and protecting beach access while developing positive attitudes and relationships between kiters and beyond to the wider community", so I would se it as incumbent on that association to get its committe together and develop a code of ethics.

It should be short and succinct, and have the same target audience as the Surfing Code of Ethics (ie so even a 10yo can understand but adults wont find it infantile), and include self evident pictorials to aid english-deficient tourists.

I dont think Seabreeze forum is the place to do this - its a task for a hand picked committe to offer up a draft for public comment. C'mon WAKSA - time to show some leadership!
sandgroper
sandgroper
WA
368 posts
WA, 368 posts
17 Jan 2009 5:58pm
stabber said...

I wish this topic was "as good as over"


Go away. Solved.
TurtleHunter
TurtleHunter
WA
1675 posts
WA, 1675 posts
17 Jan 2009 8:33pm
Your right Darren people ignore signs but at least those who want to do the right thing can see them. I can't see what sort of regulation would stop the idiots. At least a sign would keep make it obvious who the idiots are. I know if I ever kited in Perth (god help me if I do) I wouldn't have a clue what the kiting protocol is at most beaches.
stabber
stabber
NSW
1114 posts
NSW, 1114 posts
18 Jan 2009 3:24pm
This topic, I could liken to a dog chasing its tail.....around and around a friggin 'gain.
Bigwavedave
Bigwavedave
QLD
2057 posts
QLD, 2057 posts
18 Jan 2009 6:25pm
stabber said...

This topic, I could liken to a dog chasing its tail.....around and around a friggin 'gain.


keep on commenting Stab......and keep on bumping this topic to the top!!
ianmac
ianmac
WA
267 posts
WA, 267 posts
18 Jan 2009 10:41pm
Supersane said...

Yeah agreed with Ian and Fred ^^^^

These are examples of signage...

From Bells:

http://www.surfcoast.vic.gov.au/Leisure%20&%20Cty%20Services/Documents/SpiritInformation.pdf

And at Marg's:

www.surfrider.org.au/initiatives/education_rtb/06_01_surf_etiquette_2.php

This "it's as good as over" marlarky is a bit much...


i think this is a excellent EG of some activity or positive response, if any one one is looking for a one answer one solution let me drop you fair on your arze now it is unlikely to happen, take advantage of any positive option and build on it then we can move forward to the next step ,, wat ever that is .
signs if they are the answer great !! if not at least table it and try it at the next level ,currently we are not moving forward as a group of kitesurfers to protect what we value so much
its something between signs and compulsory registration what is it ??? suggestions pls
pfr
pfr
NSW
156 posts
pfr pfr
NSW, 156 posts
19 Jan 2009 7:31am
licences will make kitesurfing like jetskis. most people can afford one but they cant afford to keep it. licences, insurance WILL kill our free fun!
enicao
enicao
WA
77 posts
WA, 77 posts
21 Jan 2009 2:42am
makes signs!!

Signs at kiting beach are a good beginning.
if the rules are not written anywhere where people can read it, they don't exist.
it sorts out the kook who doesn't know and the one who doesn't care
more than half the problem solved.


if there is no sign telling the speed limit, there is no speed limit, if there is no kite rules sign, there is no kite rules.

when you tell someone to do the right thing, if there is a sign, its not your right thing, so it's not personnal, and as better chances to get heard.

there is a sign at pelican point telling the CLEAR guides lines, where to get more infos, and telling not to kite between the yellow buoys and the beach because its natural reserve.
I've never seen any kiter going in the natural reserve, even if their kite is in the zone, so it works.

in australia there is a sign for everything, so why is there no kite signs at other metro beaches??


the sign should have 3 parts:
- general kitesurfing safety rules
- spot specifique rules
- public education about kiting: if you want to get into this sport go to school, contact of the closest iko school, don't go between the kiter and is kite...

www.ffvl.fr/Competition/kitesurf/2004/BdCommandePanneauxsite.pdf


this sign is made by the french national kitesurfing body, I have never seen it on a beach but it exists.
good for 7 to 77 years old, and every tourist non speaking local language, you don't need to know how to read to understand


So make the rules (rules, not guidelines), makes the signs, see what happen, and after start to think about how to enforce it.

PS: were is waksa? never heard anything on the subject from waksa

PS2: cutting lines is worse than useless, kooks will fix it with a knot, without knowing knots in kite lines are not strong. and they will break the line, so you risk creating an accident, which endanger the sport further.
getfunky
getfunky
WA
4485 posts
WA, 4485 posts
21 Jan 2009 3:52pm
Er... slightly off topic but I saw bloke nearly impaled on the double star picket beach activity sign at City Beach/Floreat last night.

He launched just as his chicken loop dropped out putting him at full power, dug his heels in and screamed along the sand missing the sign by much less than a metre!!!

Personally I am in favour of educating the beach users in any way possible but ANY signs need to be obvious and eye catching but right out of the way for launching/landing.

Seriously thought I was going to see a fatality last night!! Very, very lucky bloke.
au_rick
au_rick
WA
752 posts
WA, 752 posts
4 Feb 2009 1:34pm
elizabethb said...

Andrash said...

......you are in the position where very few of us....I mean you educate beginners from day one ......it's far more effective then trying to regulate them later...or worse: get them regulated by outsiders.


I assume that the majority of the problems Darren addressed, are by people who either buy kites off e-bay and teach themselves, or have 'friends' teach them to kite after they have only had a few lessons themselves...

So I would predict that rather placing an emphasis on IKO courses and where they are going wrong, everyone gaining an IKO level and having name and number printed on board and kite, could be one of the first steps to take.

There are idiots in every sport; we are unfortunately not immune to them.



so, by your logix, all the f%wit hoons on the roads haven't got licenses or didn't have driving lessons, or bout their cars from the local paper.

Face it , idiots are idiots, and compulsory regulation and registration won't fix that !

Putting your name and number on you gear is a good idea though, so if it's found it can be returned.

Incidentally, a scuba diver was recently prosecuted for letting his kayak drift out to sea and not reporting it. A rescue was launched, assuming he'd not returned from his dive, so there's a lesson in that for all of us.
loco4olas
loco4olas
NSW
1525 posts
NSW, 1525 posts
4 Feb 2009 5:59pm
enicao said...

makes signs!!
]


this sign is made by the french national kitesurfing body, I have never seen it on a beach but it exists.
good for 7 to 77 years old, and every tourist non speaking local language, you don't need to know how to read to understand



Bloody good sign that one-be a great idea for AKSA to liase with local Councils and pay for the signs to be placed at all the most popular kitesurfing spots-may even go some way to reducing AKSA membership dues (besides sign cost) as the insurance component may be reduced-may also go some way to ameliorating Council opposition if we start being proactive, sensitive and sensible in our approach.

I'm the last one to want any kind of regulation self or imposed-but I believe that if enough fools fugg up enough times at enough locations we're going to be severely restricted in respect of access options.

Charl dv
Charl dv
WA
2485 posts
WA, 2485 posts
4 Feb 2009 5:39pm
Kitehard said...



Sorry to be the wet blanket, but people ignore signs. There is a BIG sign at Dutchies south of Cott. It says you cannot rig or launch off the beach at the foot of the stairs.

I noticed a group of kiters started to rig up so I went in and informed them of the rules. Only 1 kiter moved the 100m required to do the right thing, the rest ignored me and my second request after nothing happened and continued to rig and launched from the banned beach. They said there was no one watching so it should be ok.

,






where was Ed?
Wet Willy
Wet Willy
TAS
2317 posts
TAS, 2317 posts
4 Feb 2009 10:18pm
Kitehard said......My mate the copper said we aren't under the law as vessels and so can't be fined or regulated by the police, but he suggests unless we get our sh1t together, they will approach the department and have the wording changes to allow windsurfers and kiters to be classified as vessels . The Police would then over regulate the new laws and start fining and confiscating gear.

...





Please, when the water cops pick you up, explain the difference between kiting and windsurfing...you wouldn't want to be arrested for something you didn't do, would you?
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