Wave Nationals Judging

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melis

ACT

2 posts

melis

ACT, 2 posts

23 Jan 2007 7:05pm

Hi
I've been reading all the comments and ideas, some good, some poor, (and others just plain stupid) but thought you might like to read an excerpt from the Wave Judging Guidelines I found on the AKSA website that will be used for the Wave Nationals.....
"There should be no adjustments, concessions or generosity based on equipment. It is always the rider’s decision which gear they use, and this decision should be based on which will give them the best performance."
Hopefully this clarifies the point about equipment and gives those critical of the decisions, judging or work of all the volunteers and organisers who put on these events something to think about.
Ultimately if you want to attend and compete in the events that is great and there are loads who do positively support these events....no-one should be critical of any kiters preferene to the style they wish to follow. If you like riding waves...go to the wave nats...if you like riding freestyle..go to the freestyle nats. This appears to be how and why the separate disciplines developed.
Forget the politics, accept things as they are and move on...go kiting or something!

paul.j

QLD

3381 posts

paul.j

QLD, 3381 posts

23 Jan 2007 8:44pm

(Would you go out in double overhead, perfectly peeling reef shoulder waves, but with occasional close out sets, unstrapped?)

The answer is yes

(No that's surfing or tow in surfing.)
NO steve that's tow in surfing or just plain old surfing neither one has a kite in there hands, eva herd of just park the kite and ride that's kite surfing.

Hey steve, Why do u insist on correcting everyone else's opinion's?
I just post my opinion, this is how i feel, so i don't need you to tell me that it's wrong!

I'm not against riding with straps, i've done it in the past and more than likely i will do it in the future. I quite like the way some people ride with straps eg.JB, he rides straps the way they should be ridden.

Not sure where you are taking this bias thing, i think u might be on your own there. Every comp i've attended lately has been pretty fair.

This topic bores me, it's been going around for way to long. Just go and ride what u want and be happy about it, if your not smiling then don't do it.

paul j

sir ROWDY

5378 posts

sir ROWDY

WA, 5378 posts

23 Jan 2007 9:58pm

The old "do what ever makes you happy" argument hahahaha this always comes out when you realise that what you are doing is stupid. unstrapped has no future and is not gonna get the sport any respect whatsoever, to think it will is just plain stupid.
Think about this, can you do a good air unstrapped? maybe. can you do a good 360 air unstrapped? doubtfull. can you do a good rodeo flip unstrapped? very doubtfull can you do any other sort of flip pass grab combination with any sort of sucess rate? very hard to achieve with any sort of consistancy. these folks are all the types of moves that kitesurfing as a sport should strive on and have the upperhand at doing, this is the sort of stuff that is going to get surfers and other wave enthusiasts syked.
A surfer is not going to and never will get syked at some dude that looks like hes absolutley kooking it on an unstrapped board going slow doing mostly lame turns and cant even do a roundhouse. they are gonna get syked at some dude busting out off the lip with 3s, 5s rodeoflips, backmobe and the like.
If the core of australias unstrapped crew woke up to this fact im sure we would see some great things to come.

p.s. re: happy's argument "what is the benifits of unstrapped" someone please answer with something besides "you can move your feet".

waveslave

4263 posts

waveslave

WA, 4263 posts

23 Jan 2007 10:52pm

ROWDY's question:
What are the benefits of being unstrapped ?

Answer:
You get awarded extra contest points for using wax only.
lol

Hey, it's a 'surfboard with a kite' contest.
These are the rules.
It's their party and they'll dance how they want.
No wakey twin-tips invited.
No gay, strapped, directional gatecrashers please.
hehehe....

But when the breeze nukes-up into the 25-30 knot range,
watch the crew quickly bust out the screwdrivers.

stnkygoat

NSW

230 posts

stnkygoat

NSW, 230 posts

24 Jan 2007 11:46am

The benefits of unstrapped that is not simply 'you can move your feet', it'a actually, mere contrivance! It's harder to stay on the thing so you feel more satisfaction when you actually manage to get the thing moving. Personally I don't think it looks any better (and we have some really amazing people who do it around here) than strapped, but I know from experience it is harder to do.

Instrapped is like a lot of the wake-style stuff. We are all so used to the idea that low-kite/ more power is harder to do, that we think it looks the most impressive. But to the average non kiter/spectator watching a couple of unhooked raileys doesn't look anywhere near as impressive as huge air.

Also, Slave has a point - I've never seen anyone do unstrapped in more than about 15 knots, which is only half of what we've been dealt lately so that could be a problem for the unstrapped. riders.

These sports develop according to what is harder to do, putting those who can keep up with the changes in an ever more exclusive group. Everything will get harder, but not because it intrinsically looks any 'better', just because it is harder.

Aren't humans funny?

This still doesn't answer my original question: has their been a decision about whether you can ride a TT in the national titles?

melis

ACT

2 posts

melis

ACT, 2 posts

24 Jan 2007 12:10pm

Hey Stnkygoat
Re: "This still doesn't answer my original question: has their been a decision about whether you can ride a TT in the national titles?"

There didn't need to be decision....the rules used for 2 years have set one.....my post earlier yesterday has the section from the judging guidelines that says no equipment bias...this means you can use whatever you want....surfboard, TT, whatever...

People get carried away with emotional comments and bypass the facts

Kitepower Australia

NSW

4382 posts

Kitepower Australia

NSW, 4382 posts

24 Jan 2007 12:25pm

quote:
Originally posted by paul.j

(Would you go out in double overhead, perfectly peeling reef shoulder waves, but with occasional close out sets, unstrapped?)

The answer is yes

(No that's surfing or tow in surfing.)
NO steve that's tow in surfing or just plain old surfing neither one has a kite in there hands, eva herd of just park the kite and ride that's kite surfing.

Hey steve, Why do u insist on correcting everyone else's opinion's?
I just post my opinion, this is how i feel, so i don't need you to tell me that it's wrong!

I'm not against riding with straps, i've done it in the past and more than likely i will do it in the future. I quite like the way some people ride with straps eg.JB, he rides straps the way they should be ridden.

Not sure where you are taking this bias thing, i think u might be on your own there. Every comp i've attended lately has been pretty fair.

This topic bores me, it's been going around for way to long. Just go and ride what u want and be happy about it, if your not smiling then don't do it.

paul j

G'day Paul

Maybe I shoud have completed that what if scenario with the wind is blowing 25-30+knots, choppy conditions.

I think even you would spend a lot of time dragging for your board.

Hey Paul, why do you insist on making up sh1t like I am correcting everyone elses opinion, when all I am doing is posting my opinion?
(by the way most other people agree with me)

Just like you I have a right to post my opinion, and I will say it again, judging our nationals and ging any sort of break to unstrapped riders sucks!

This idea you have that you can just park the kite and it somehow magically hangs in the sky not pulling you at all is just a fantasy, being proposed by a bunch of kiters who think that unstrapped is more "pure" or harder, whatever.............

If the kite is flying, parked, or looping, it IS pulling you. This sport is KITEsurfing.

If people want to ride unstrapped with a smooth, old school, longboard look, compared to people using the power of the kite to combine with the wave and attack the wave face with heaps of flowing aggressive style, able to pull massive airs, floaters, and other tricks, and give the unstrapped rider a judging bias, go for it.

But kitesurfing will lose respect if that happens, lots of good strapped riders will not compete.

It is quite clear that the vast majority of people who have posted feel that any bias towards strapped is bad for the sport and sucks.

Cya and

Goodwinds

Steve

simonmm

QLD

200 posts

simonmm

QLD, 200 posts

24 Jan 2007 12:24pm

First up, whatever chokes your chicken in the waves is all that counts as far as I see it.

However, it is pretty obvious that kite waveriding is still in its infancy and is evolving every year. I remember people saying that riding a surfboard in the waves is stupid and that TTs are the way forward. The argument then was this is kiting not surfing and a TT affords more opportunities for tricks etc. Still, check out any surf beach now and the ratio of TTs to surfboards is swinging to surfboards at a rate of knots. Then more people started riding strapless. Again people said, "this is kiting not surfing and look at the tow in guys, they use straps". But still strapless riding seems to grow.

People argue that surfboards and strapless riding are all trends that will pass. No doubt if/when something better comes along things will change. However, why would so many good riders choose to regularly ride strapless? Could it simply be that it is just a ****load of fun? Could people like the challenge, the free feeling of a strapless board, the added windrange afforded by better using the boards realestate, the simplicity of a single surf/kiteboard or the reward of landing grabbed air?

I have seen a bunch of people give the strapless thing a go and after a few sessions say that it is OK, but straps are really the go. Unfortunately, I think that a few sessions is not even scratching the surface for understanding strapless riding. It takes dedication and persistance to just become competent let alone master. Also, in the process of learning, a good strapped wave rider will almost certainly go back to looking like some kook again. For those that have persisted and risen to the top, well they are certainly killing it now. Seeing videos of strapless riders doing surface pass floaters, huge vertical snaps and boosting big airs with grabs on the way out is pretty awsome to watch.

It is hard to argue against the premise that riding strapless at the top level requires more skill than the strapped rider. Should this be rewarded in a comp? Who cares that much about comps anyhow? In Chopper's immortal words, harden the f*** up and go out and ride (or organise a strapped only wave riding comp).

caged

NSW

106 posts

caged

NSW, 106 posts

24 Jan 2007 2:43pm

You should all listen to Chopper!!!

JB

NSW

2232 posts

NSW, 2232 posts

24 Jan 2007 5:48pm

Kiteboarding is so gay!

Just to stir things up, we haven't touched on the hooked and un-hooked thing!

On a different subject, I've been watching Tennis lately, and noticed that some of the girls wear skirts and some wear shorts! Do you think they get scored differently, it would have to be harder to play in a skirt and not flash your brekkie! I would imagine they would even though their playing the same game.....

stnkygoat

NSW

230 posts

stnkygoat

NSW, 230 posts

24 Jan 2007 5:52pm

quote:
Originally posted by melis

Hey Stnkygoat
Re: "This still doesn't answer my original question: has their been a decision about whether you can ride a TT in the national titles?"

There didn't need to be decision....the rules used for 2 years have set one.....my post earlier yesterday has the section from the judging guidelines that says no equipment bias...this means you can use whatever you want....surfboard, TT, whatever...

People get carried away with emotional comments and bypass the facts

Thanks. I see now.

And you might be right about people getting emotional about this stuff - I'm waiting for the Dr Phil episode: "My Child Rides Strapless and I Think It's Lame" It'll happen.....

Red rocket

29 posts

Red rocket

WA, 29 posts

24 Jan 2007 5:09pm

quote:
Also, Slave has a point - I've never seen anyone do unstrapped in more than about 15 knots, which is only half of what we've been dealt lately so that could be a problem for the unstrapped. riders.

You guys may be onto something...

www.seabreeze.com.au/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=24705&SearchTerms=strapless

hey Steve, good to see someone with some respect in the sport standing up and saying whats true, instead of conforming with this months trends. Respect....

Kitepower Australia

NSW

4382 posts

Kitepower Australia

NSW, 4382 posts

25 Jan 2007 1:09am

In the process of volunteering to do some judging, comments were made to me about the judging for this years nats.

I feel that it is in all competitors interests that I make this information public and I don't know of a better place than this forum to do that.

The organisers felt it would have been ideal to have a panel of 5 surfing judges, who have no kiting experience.
However 5 were not available, but myself and Bob Dawson were. We were initially gladly accepted as judges, both of us have extensive judging experience.
Then 24 hrs later we were contacted again, and told that due to us being seen as associated in the industry to certain brands, and therefore our judging was perceived to be potentially biased towards unstated brands, we were rejected.

Bob and myself decided to withdraw our offers to be judges.

At the time we were told that there was going to be a surfer only judging panel. I questioned the logic behind that decision and was told that the judges only needed to know about surfing, because that was what the focus was on and that unstrapped riders would score higher for the same moves than strapped, and that a person on a TT could not win.
I also pointed out that all riders prefer a type or brand of kite and that it would be impossible to get voluteer judges with kiting experience who could be classed as totally unbiased.

Now the 2 open spots have been filled by people that are less experienced at judging, and who definately have affiliations to certain brands. I have been told that one judge is a sponsored Naish rider and another is a Naish/Monkey kite dealer who has only judged one other kitesurfing comp.

Now I feel that it is important that kiters and competitors know what is going on with the judging of the nats.

Aksa needs to cultivate a judging criteria for the selection of judges for National Titles, if they want the results to have the respect of the wider kitesurfing community.

Cya and

Goodwinds

Steve

Josh K

QLD

318 posts

Josh K

QLD, 318 posts

25 Jan 2007 12:35am

why not just surf?

paul.j

QLD

3381 posts

paul.j

QLD, 3381 posts

25 Jan 2007 12:45am

Sounds like AKSA are doing a good job. Maybe they just want some young fresh faces in the judging booth. I am pretty sure one of them has got plenty of judging experiance.

JB

NSW

2232 posts

NSW, 2232 posts

25 Jan 2007 9:05am

One of the perticular judges that steve is talking about was actually rejected of their judging role, because of the reasons that steve has bought up! But was then heaveily voted back in unnanusly due to his extensive judging experience and cerdibility internationally by both the PKRA and KPWT and also because of his 6 odd years of kiteboarding experience most of which has been in competitions. Also he will be performing the role of Head judge, and not actually be scoring any rider directly, his role is to over look the judges and make sure attention, direction and comnsistancy are followed as best as possible.

I understand your concerns regarding the lack of kitesurf knowladge of some of the judges, and normally I would agree. But I beleive that a rider with better kite control and technique will stand out with their riding, as it is only really the best combination of riding and kite that can make a truely spectactular ride!

I am looking forward to seeing the results of being judged by a feild of surfers! maybe I won't like it, but I think it will be a great growth process for the wave riding discipline of this sport.

Either way, looks like Port is going to be a sick comp! Looking forward to it!

JB

chrisb

37 posts

chrisb

37 posts

25 Jan 2007 9:02am

quote:
Originally posted by Kitepower Australia

This idea you have that you can just park the kite and it somehow magically hangs in the sky not pulling you at all is just a fantasy,

If there's just enough wind for the kite to generate lift exactly equal to its mass then it will "hang" there. Fair enough that doesn't happen that often, but you can get the pull down to bugger all of nothing (like a kg or two) alot of the time. Just my small contribution, which doesn't exactly add much to the discussion at hand.

waveslave

4263 posts

waveslave

WA, 4263 posts

25 Jan 2007 11:21am

quote:
Originally posted by chrisb

quote:
Originally posted by Kitepower Australia

This idea you have that you can just park the kite and it somehow magically hangs in the sky not pulling you at all is just a fantasy,

If there's just enough wind for the kite to generate lift exactly equal to its mass then it will "hang" there. Fair enough that doesn't happen that often, but you can get the pull down to bugger all of nothing (like a kg or two) alot of the time. Just my small contribution, which doesn't exactly add much to the discussion at hand.

This kite-parking thing intrigues me ?
"Just park the kite and go surfing".
lol
Just park the car on the street and go surfing.
Just park the wife on the beach and go surfing.
Free yourself.
Please release me.
Remove my constraints.
Just park and ride.

But where is this secret space for kite-parking ?
Where do you park a kite ?
12 o'clock, 12.15, 12.30 maybe ?
What time on the clock should the parking-meter read ?
And when does the parking-meter expire....
When the lines go slack as you zoom past your kite ?
Oops.
lol

magilla

VIC

60 posts

magilla

VIC, 60 posts

25 Jan 2007 2:57pm

A very important aspect that has been overlooked is wave selection.

Easy to pull into any slop but to pick the set and to select one that will run all the way through takes skill and patience. One that breaks right through allows you to stay in the pocket longer and therefore takes more skill and knowledge.

The scores should only reflect the three or four best waves riden. This can be done either by the judges scoring all waves riden or by the kiter signalling to the judges that they want the last wave as a score. The last system makes wave selection even more critical.

As for strapped verses unstrapped, every surfer would agree that to tow into a bomb unstrapped takes more skill. Don't believe me then watch the dvd Maydays.

Got to love wave comps with kites. Tow in's without the fumes.

By the way I go unstrapped surfboard because I like to be able to move my feet to either generate speed or to turn harder.

JB

NSW

2232 posts

NSW, 2232 posts

25 Jan 2007 3:08pm

Magilla, I think you'll find I point wave sellection (choice) out on the first page, But yees your are right, it is a very big part of judging who is the better wave rider on the day, being able to read waves and understand conditions is what makes a surfer!

waveslave

4263 posts

waveslave

WA, 4263 posts

25 Jan 2007 1:28pm

quote:
[i]Originally posted by Kitepower Australia

If people want to ride unstrapped with a smooth, old school, longboard look, compared to people using the power of the kite to combine with the wave and attack the wave face with heaps of flowing aggressive style, able to pull massive airs, floaters, and other tricks, and give the unstrapped rider a judging bias, go for it.

But kitesurfing will lose respect if that happens, lots of good strapped riders will not compete.

Yep,
Just park and ride.
"That unstrapped old-school longboard look".
Malibu-style with a helium party balloon.
Wavecruisers on Prozac.
zzzzzzzz
That's the look.

More like,
that's the tilt.
The Industry's tilt.
The tilt towards acceptance into the exclusive club of CorporateSurf.
Billabong harnesses and Quiksilver kiteleashes.
The masterplan.
It's evil.

chrisb

37 posts

chrisb

37 posts

25 Jan 2007 3:46pm

quote:
Originally posted by waveslave

12 o'clock, 12.15, 12.30 maybe ?

Seven and a half minutes past three.

sir ROWDY

5378 posts

sir ROWDY

WA, 5378 posts

25 Jan 2007 6:33pm

f#ckin bedtime (on tha beach) thats the only place for your kite when your on a surfboard. if you wanna surf, go surfing!! if you wanna kitesurf wear straps. good luck with your comp hahahahahahahhahahahahaha. lol.

user

1140 posts

user

WA, 1140 posts

25 Jan 2007 8:06pm

What a load of crap from a load of tossers !

I'm glad I don't go to comps!
(yeah,yeah,I'm not good enough,get nicked all you elitist tossers ! )

Some tossers are trying to turn kiteboarding into wakeboarding.
Some tossers are trying to turn kiteboarding into surfing.

If you wanna be wakeboarding,go fkn wakeboarding!
If you wanna be surfing,go f k n surfing!

Me? I'm going f k n KITEBOARDING !

Josh K

QLD

318 posts

Josh K

QLD, 318 posts

25 Jan 2007 9:26pm

go surf instead.

LEWISS

NSW

335 posts

LEWISS

NSW, 335 posts

25 Jan 2007 11:43pm

exactly, why go in a comp strapless, when you could be absolutely ripping with straps. Oh, wait.. ofcourse..........

So you can move your feet around.

Unless its Mambo or something casual... There is no point having a little bitch fight over nothing.

once again... Style should be looked at more often...
::::Paul.J rips strappless but::::

Mr float

NSW

3452 posts

Mr float

NSW, 3452 posts

26 Jan 2007 12:41am

Hmmm

Like many things kiteboarfding(life ) !!!! Well intentioned rhetoric ..
(Is it ever enactd)?Anyway ,The outstanding in anything always shines no matter what

Cheers

quote:
Originally posted by melis

Hi
I've been reading all the comments and ideas, some good, some poor, (and others just plain stupid) but thought you might like to read an excerpt from the Wave Judging Guidelines I found on the AKSA website that will be used for the Wave Nationals.....
"There should be no adjustments, concessions or generosity based on equipment. It is always the rider’s decision which gear they use, and this decision should be based on which will give them the best performance."
Hopefully this clarifies the point about equipment and gives those critical of the decisions, judging or work of all the volunteers and organisers who put on these events something to think about.
Ultimately if you want to attend and compete in the events that is great and there are loads who do positively support these events....no-one should be critical of any kiters preferene to the style they wish to follow. If you like riding waves...go to the wave nats...if you like riding freestyle..go to the freestyle nats. This appears to be how and why the separate disciplines developed.
Forget the politics, accept things as they are and move on...go kiting or something!

Mr float

NSW

3452 posts

Mr float

NSW, 3452 posts

26 Jan 2007 12:44am

great thread !!

waveslave

4263 posts

waveslave

WA, 4263 posts

25 Jan 2007 11:51pm

If the Industry wants to succeed with their evil masterplan,
they may need to rethink their strategy.
Solely relying on strapless surfboards becoming the standard equipment for wavekiting may be over-ambitious.
The Industry might be wise to look at other methods to penetrate the surf (surfer) market.

I shouldn't give them any ideas,
but what the heck,
I can't stop myself.

It is my belief that the Industry would be smart to invest R&D funds on the design of a footstrap,
that requires no inserts in the deck of a board.
I'm aware of an existing footstrap system that involves a stick-on deckpad with built-in inserts.

But I'm talking about a footstrap system that requires no screws or fasteners for fixing.
No stick-on deckpad.
No screwdrivers.
No stuff.
Nothing.
Zero.

A footstrap that attaches instantly to the board deck in seconds.
And detaches instantly from the board deck in seconds.
Leaving a clean skin.
Anywhere on the board.
Anywhere.

Velcro booties with velcro deckpads are not the solution.
Billabong instant bindings are coming to a surf shop near you.

Can't be done, you say.
I have my ideas but I'm keeping it secret.
Well, that's the design brief.
Go-for-it.

Kitepower Australia

NSW

4382 posts

Kitepower Australia

NSW, 4382 posts

26 Jan 2007 1:05pm

~~http://www.predatorsurf.com/product.html~~

Waveslave its been done, the sticky pad with the inserts just means you have to unscrew the one screw to use your board for a paddle surf. And they are Australian made and owned.
For those that want to be able to move their feet around, you can with these things (don't want to call them straps :-)

Any judging bias to give unstrapped board users an advantage should be eliminated from the Nats.

Judge selection needs to be cleaned up too, we should have all judges being able to kite. If kiter judges are selected that selection should be based on judging experience, and things like industry sponsorship of a judge needs to be considered seriously (even though I respect the judge who is sponsored by a major brand).

And I hope the organisers are rewarded with good wind and waves!!

Cya and

Goodwinds

Steve

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