kiwi307 said...

Ai I was the one who asked the VERY INNOCENT QUESTION I feel that I must apologise for the hornets nest which I appear to have poked with a stick.
Please please again, let's not get caught up in this as sailors, somehow agree on something and let's get on with it! BTW mine is about 1/2 built would comply with NZ 6, LLmini, but what has been shown on this site for Mini and the "latest 6, frankly, I don't care, it's got way out of hand, and doing the sport no good at all.
Again, sorry for having raised this originally. After close on 40 years around the sport I am very saddened by this outcome. Perhaps the slowness of letters was a good thing, gave time for people to think before they sprang into public debate?

2 things:

Firstly I want to see pictures of your build!

Secondly I was going to say I think this debate is going well! You should have seen some of the sh|+fights that went on here in the early days. I think we've progressed well as an online community.

Like hills I think its been a good discussion
I for one have got a lot out of it
Where else would you get this? nowhere I know of

cisco said...

Gizmo said...

Rules???
So cisco, you might like to answer your own question ...

I would like to challenge that and say that a blokart with the POD skin fitted but not the perspex screen over the top WILL be compliant with the "class 6" rule.

In conjunction with class6 rules perhaps ask yourself why do I want to push the limits?

I am a minimalist when it comes to rules. But the old adage "It doesn't matter what the rules are, but it does matter that one knows what they are." still holds true.

If a person was to turn up at a race being run as a class 6 race with a blokart fitted with pod but no screen and was challenged by the scrutineer concerning the pod, it is argueable that the pod does not form a covering over the pilot and would have to be allowed.

Hey Cisco
i think you need to read the ALSA Mini rules regarding Blokart Pods.

Pay special attention to rule 9.

I have sailed a Blokart for over 5 years and there would be no human in the world that could touch the ground with their feet with the Pod side skirts on.

Maybe the could cut holes in them !!!!!!!!!!

ALSA Mini Rules

If I can add my two cents worth to this blokart pod vs Class 6 rules discussion, the best I can make out is that the intent of the rule is not to have something that "traps the pilot". A very laudable goal, but rather than stating the actual requirement, the rule describes one of the things that *could* cause the problem. The issue is that under the rule, you could have some sort of brace or bracket that does trap the pilot and that would be legal, yet the blokart pod that does not impact a pilot's egress in any way is banned.

If the intention is not to trap the pilot, then say so. For example, specify the clearance necessary to allow someone to get out of the vehicle. If the intention is not to allow aerodynamic enhancements to improve speed, then sure, ban coverings. As it stands, the rule and its justification do not line up.

Clinton does raise a good point. It is not possible to put your feet out in a blokart with a pod. This prevents one major potential for injury, making the pod a contributor to safety. I wince every time I see someone in a production blokart stick their foot out to 'scoot'.

This Mini Class Rule is flawed to billieo. Is it a set of rules for Mini Yachts or a mini set of rules??

If the pilot's weight is to be included in the minimum weight of the yacht a more definitive rule on ballast needs to go with it, ie type and placement.

Clause 9 states that the pilots feet must be able to touch the ground. Why?? So that the pilot can perform instant acrobatics throwing their feet behind their head with no physical effort on their part??? Or maybe we are trying to support the medical fraternity with a flood of broken ankles???

If an insurance risk assessor with any understanding of the dynamics of a land yacht were to read this rule he would pull the plug on the risk undertaking quick as a wink.

The pilots feet NOT being able to touch the ground is a core safety requirement of the class5 rule. With Mini Yachts we are talking about 50-70 kmh in moderate conditions with capabilities of 100 kmh plus in stronger conditions. Would you stick your leg out of a car door at 20 or even 10 kmh???

Why do blokarts have leg restraining straps fitted??? Certainly not because they look sexy.

Further, this rule is fractured. You have a Mini class 1,2 and 3.

The Mini class 1 & 2 have no place in a Mini yacht rule.
The class 1 does not even fit the class 5 rule.
The class 2 is a limited class 5.
The class 3 is a limited Australian class 6.

Would I race a yacht under this "Mini Class Rule"??? There is about as much chance of that happening as there is for a snowflake in hell.

The "Australian Class 6 Rule" does exist and it was written in 1985 by a very intelligent and forward thinking person who saw a gap in the market place for a more portable and user friendly yacht for ladies and children without restricting the development of go fast yachts. This was done before the advent of most of the commercially built yachts we see today.

If ALSA will not encompass or endorse the "Australian Class 6 Rule", that is their problem and loss of potential new affiliate members.


I am not posting "negativity". I post positive comments about how to fix flaws that I see.

The world is not laughing at us. The world sees what is going on here for what it is, a discussion of a difference of opinion between a supposedly authoritarian faction and the independants.
Cheers Cisco

Hey Cisco
Do you sail a Blokart?
Dont they have weight class for there pilots?

its is a minimum weight not a maximum weight.
If we sail in a Mini class 3 and you weigh 98ks including yacht and
I weigh 125ks including yacht who do you think would be faster.

So adding the pilots weight to the overall is a bad thing?

you say these rules are flawed they are not, its is just people like you on your high horse
trying to keep landsailing in the dark ages

Brians 1985 Australian only class 6 rules fit under the new MINI RULES

Your statements:
The Mini class 1 & 2 have no place in a Mini yacht rule. So all home made yachts are out
The class 1 does not even fit the class 5 rule. Again all home made yachts are out
The class 2 is a limited class 5. Again all home made yachts are out
The class 3 is a limited Australian class 6. Again all home made yachts are out

Wake up man...stop canning rules and enjoy sailing

boogie said...


Your statements:
The Mini class 1 & 2 have no place in a Mini yacht rule. So all home made yachts are out
The class 1 does not even fit the class 5 rule. Again all home made yachts are out
The class 2 is a limited class 5. Again all home made yachts are out
The class 3 is a limited Australian class 6. Again all home made yachts are out

Wake up man...stop canning rules and enjoy sailing

Again all home made yachts are out

I don't know how you deduced that from what I said. But it does look like it is going that way.

If the rules are not allowed to be questioned, that is tyranny or despotism and I will not be part of that.

I would like to apologize to the ALSA committee regarding these discussions.

I believe that landsailing will grow in this country and be better than it's early hayday.

It gets my back up when non members of any association or club start posting stupid comments
and making out that they are greatest thing since sliced bread.

Again I apologize and lets get sailing

Clinton

trumpy said...

Just to clarify, all blokart products are stress tested before going to the market, and from an Insurers point of veiw, we would be crazy and totally irresponsoble to do otherwise

Cheers
Phil

Did I hear correct the a few years ago that someone in Queensland was badly hurt when something on a blokart failed? That lead to legal action or did I get my story wrong?

boogie said...

Gizmo

"boogie.. your not a member of ALSA and yet you seem to be their spokesperson (Oh fool you!!)
And if your not a member how did you get the information? and how do you actually know its correct?"
If you look through this forum you will find a ALSA Constitution and the Mini rules.

[Thats right the one that says they need to have an AGM? and the mini rules you posted]

"Thanks for the compliment cisco all i tried to do at the time was to provide a framework to support an encourage new people coming into the sport."
I have only stated that rules written in 1985 are not current in today's enviroment. At the time they where written they where excellent and you deserve a pat on the back

Could you please explain how the "Sandpiper" yacht fits into the new mini rules?
you will find a pic in the resgister ... And it does fit into class6 rules!!!
Maybe a good design in 1984 ...... Is there any left?? Or is that the only one??
Remove the stays and it's legal to run

[Yes there are some left... remove the mini rule #7 and it stays in .... the "Sandpiper" was there first!!!]

"niaychi, Who are you?
you say you are a member but you have not said on your profile actually who you are?
and how do we know your not just a stooge stirring the pot?
And the reason that the water sailing national boby doesnt communicate on the forum is they actually act as a professional body should, they have a web site for ALL to see....
http://www.yachting.org.au/ Does ALSA?... no!!!"
Sorry i dont know him/her
ALSA Do have a website that I built for them.....Many Many hours.....Why is it not live???i dont know

And you should!!!!
Aren't you a "non member of an association or club posting stupid comments" ......
as i said (Oh fool you!!)
I was a member and was privy to some info whilst building ALSA's website.....I let my membership lapse due to some very long work hours over the last three years

[Doesn't the word "privy" come from the word "PRIVATE", something you actually don't understand do you?]

Gizmo said...

boogie said...

Gizmo

"boogie.. your not a member of ALSA and yet you seem to be their spokesperson (Oh fool you!!)
And if your not a member how did you get the information? and how do you actually know its correct?"
If you look through this forum you will find a ALSA Constitution and the Mini rules.

[Thats right the one that says they need to have an AGM? and the mini rules you posted]

"Thanks for the compliment cisco all i tried to do at the time was to provide a framework to support an encourage new people coming into the sport."
I have only stated that rules written in 1985 are not current in today's enviroment. At the time they where written they where excellent and you deserve a pat on the back

Could you please explain how the "Sandpiper" yacht fits into the new mini rules?
you will find a pic in the resgister ... And it does fit into class6 rules!!!
Maybe a good design in 1984 ...... Is there any left?? Or is that the only one??
Remove the stays and it's legal to run

[Yes there are some left... remove the mini rule #7 and it stays in .... the "Sandpiper" was there first!!!]

"niaychi, Who are you?
you say you are a member but you have not said on your profile actually who you are?
and how do we know your not just a stooge stirring the pot?
And the reason that the water sailing national boby doesnt communicate on the forum is they actually act as a professional body should, they have a web site for ALL to see....
http://www.yachting.org.au/ Does ALSA?... no!!!"
Sorry i dont know him/her
ALSA Do have a website that I built for them.....Many Many hours.....Why is it not live???i dont know

And you should!!!!
Aren't you a "non member of an association or club posting stupid comments" ......
as i said (Oh fool you!!)
I was a member and was privy to some info whilst building ALSA's website.....I let my membership lapse due to some very long work hours over the last three years

[Doesn't the word "privy" come from the word "PRIVATE", something you actually don't understand do you?]

well i dont know you and i intend to stay anonomous ,BUT I AM A FULLY FINACIAL MEMBER OF ALSA and i am getting fed up with the comments from as i said before precious little princesses attacking alsa

kiwi307 said...

Again, as the originator of this post my very sincere apologies to all.
I had a large number of years of intense competition and fun, then too a break for the usual reasons, family, money, kids sport etc.
I was looking to return to the sport for FUN.
The absolute vindictiveness, crap and such like shown on this forum has made me re-consider. I don't think I want to be part of this.
I served for many years on the NZLYA as Secretary and President, 3 + years as the ACTIVE FISLY rep in Europe for both of our countries. I find it very difficult to believe what is being shown here. I have read messages which I thought showed a very direct link to your National body, which in the end prove not to be so.
This sport needs clear guidelines and strong communication.
It appears not to be so.
Those who enjoy this mud-slinging and mis-quoting are doing the sport absolutely no good at all.

That's too bad Kiwi!! As I said previously this sort of stuff blows up occasionally. I must admit now it is starting to sound a bit more like it did in the "good 'ol days". One thing I can definitely tell you from first hand experience, once you start flying down the beech at some insane speed, this all just become a very distant memory as I'm sure you'd be aware! You're in control, if you don't like whats going on in this thread, recharge your batteries by reading some of the great build threads - that works for me!

Hey Cisco ,
Have you ever been to a landyacht event , we all know there is not to much going on around Bundaberg, we all thought that you were more of an expert on Blokarts, But you dont get involved with that, So could you please tell us what is your back ground,

##edited by admin - personal insult removed###

wanabee said...

Hey Cisco ,
Have you ever been to a landyacht event , we all know there is not to much going on around Bundaberg, we all thought that you were more of an expert on Blokarts, But you dont get involved with that, So could you please tell us what is your back ground,
### edited by admin - personal insult removed ###

Good question wanabee

wanabee,
thanks for your many informative and varied postings in the forums since you joined in 2007
where