Brian, given that it seems that you were involved in the original class 6 rules, and being aware of the situation with ALSA, and PLEASE I am not inviting a them and us....
If you were doing the class 6 rules right now, would you leave them as portrayed?

FWIW I understand the length rule, but it actively discourages experimentation without building a new yacht. eg if you built a yacht with wheelbarrow type wheels and wanted to try BMX your yacht is now likely to be "illegal".
Pretty much everything else is straightforward, however hindsight is usually 20/20 and now seems a good time to re-visit???

Thanks Brian, all understood.
Would anyone want the 26" wheels which probably cost more than the whole of the rest of the yacht though? (Apart from Clem) Sorry Clem very tongue in cheek.
Somehow the whole concept of a fun, cheap, innovators dream seems to being lost.

kiwi307 said...

Thanks Brian, all understood.
Would anyone want the 26" wheels which probably cost more than the whole of the rest of the yacht though? (Apart from Clem) Sorry Clem very tongue in cheek.
Somehow the whole concept of a fun, cheap, innovators dream seems to being lost.

Off the tech heads go missing the point.
We have lost the ability to design , lost the ingenuety to create new things because we seem to need lots of rules.
By setting a few minimal rules as a base we can then make something new evolve. In the last 8 minis Ive built , every one has been a bit different, just to see whats possible. being so small the cost in time and money has been minimal.
essentially , they become a fun , cheap, innovators dream
If people dont want to design , build and experiment , there are now plenty of off the shelf options, with pages of rules for those type of people to comply with.

The history of landsailing has shown that the more design rules, the less yachts , is pretty much the norm
Remember that these yachts are designed to sail on those small venues that the 5's got too fast for, as well as fitting n the car, etc , etc.
As a suggestion , why not stop thinking so hard about improving something that doesnt need it, and just go and build one, that way youll begin to understand,
Isn't that right Cisco

not back as yet. have been sitting in hotel room on 27th floor watching over 45 fire and emergency vehicles going past with all varieties of horn, siren and screamers rattling the windows and flashing lights strobing through the traffic. Apparently according to the security guard out front the Mega Mall Asia(largest mall in asia) is on fire, the vehicles have been streaming past for the last hour or so

Rules???
I am often wonder why people are so fixated on rules, why do people HAVE to drive at the speed limit?, why do people need to go to the maxium?, why do people focus on the edge?
And what would happen if there were no limits? would we all drive flat out, cook food on the highest temp. possible, rev the car engine untill it explodes etc or would we use a level of common sense?

So why should land sailing be any different... so why do people want to continually push the limits?

If someone wishes to build a small yacht with minimal limits... then build a Lefroy Mini.
If you wanted to build a small yacht with just a few more defined limits... then look at class6 (and if you built a Lefroy Mini with class 6 in mind you could sail in either class)
If you wanted to sail in a strict class with lots of limits then build a class5 or promo class.
If you want a strict one design class the go blokart.
And if you want no restrictions at all then the sky is the limit..

Why are people so confused?

And if you want to go to the edge of the class limit what happens if you go over it even just a little bit... should you still be in that class? and who decides if you meet the class rules or not?

People should interpret rules in landsailing and life with a level of common sense and why they are there, with the thought of if someone else did what you want to do would you allow it?

So cisco, you might like to answer your own question ...

I would like to challenge that and say that a blokart with the POD skin fitted but not the perspex screen over the top WILL be compliant with the "class 6" rule.

In conjunction with class6 rules perhaps ask yourself why do I want to push the limits?

After sitting back for many, many months I believe it is time to add my two cents worth

Class 6 Rules.
As Australia is a member of FISHLY and we sail to there rules there is no such class as class 6 listed on there website.

The mini landyacht rules that ALSA passed might be the USA rules but a question for all those that want to see landsailing move into the 21st century and go forward.
Question: Wouldn't it be good at the next Pacrims Australia host, to see US competitors, competing in this class here against Aussies????

If people would read those rules correctly they would realise that all mini designed landyachts, commercial or home made fit into the USA and now, Australian Mini Rules.

Lets stop the bull#### about Brian's rules, Paul's rules, our rules, class 6 rules etc etc
The rules are in place, deal with it!! Lets go sailing

Now just to clarify a few misconceptions about Phoenix Landsailing.
A. Phoenix Landsailing built the "Swift" to the American and New Zealand rules because of a marketing strategy to sell Swift's to the US landsailing market and at the time these rules where current.
B. Phoenix Landsailing built the "Swift" to the American and New Zealand rules because we are a Pacrim country and at the time these rules where current.
C. Should we of modified our Ludic's and other Seagull landyachts to fit those so called class 6 rules?
D. We have only wanted the sport to move out of the dark ages in Australia whether a person wants a Blokart, Lefroy Mini or one of our products.

Can I ask another question
Why is a certain amount of people against Phoenix landsailing and the Swift?
Most people have not even seen the finished product, only version 1 at Gillies last year...

By the way the all new Swift by Phoenix landsailing will be on the Website by the end of the week

Another point that I will address to Paul.
(Hypothetical)
I build one of your Lefroy Mini's to your plans, etc etc and I have a serious crash and get hurt..Design flaw.....Do you have liability insurance to protect your home?

Manufactured landyachts have "Manufacture's liability insurance"

I will not hide behind my login name Clinton from Vic

Ai I was the one who asked the VERY INNOCENT QUESTION I feel that I must apologise for the hornets nest which I appear to have poked with a stick.
As there appear to be a complete "mish mash" as the "legislators" try to be all inclusive this is ever more confusing.
I do know, as I was heavily involved in the original attempts to combine the class 4 (as it then was), to become the class 5 we now have that there are always a huge amount of compromises to be made. At least, at that time we did have the will of all to make changes where needed.
The NZ class 6 (and I will disagree with Clem here, cos it goes back before him) was framed to include an older commercial yacht which was not competitive with the class 5 as it was in 1981(ish). There were a fairly large number of these 50+ over time, but mainly in the south island. Later, as Class 5 became commercially non-viable I was involved with a little "T" frame class 6, which we built only 10 or so. We used wheels which were too small (the financiers decision) and they did not go as well as they could have.
in my discussions above, I asked about the rules for one simple reason.
That is; if anyone goes overseas with a yacht they do not want to be faced with "rule discussions". There have been past occasions where the organisers have turned a "blind eye" to yachts from both of our countries at overseas events, with a good set of rules this should not be the case, in my opinion.
Further back I noted a comment re "just a little bit outside the rules". I guess when the girlfriends old man produces the shotgun, you could also say "she's only aa little bit pregnant" (I don't think so!)
Brian, "why the fixation with rules"? If there is no "recognised racing" no need at all. If any organisation is involved in running competition they are needed.
The international body for the sport is FISLY (not FISHLY).
Please please again, let's not get caught up in this as sailors, somehow agree on something and let's get on with it! BTW mine is about 1/2 built would comply with NZ 6, LLmini, but what has been shown on this site for Mini and the "latest 6, frankly, I don't care, it's got way out of hand, and doing the sport no good at all.
Again, sorry for having raised this originally. After close on 40 years around the sport I am very saddened by this outcome. Perhaps the slowness of letters was a good thing, gave time for people to think before they sprang into public debate?

Hi kiwi
I have totally agreed with you
ALSA had put a lot of thought into these mini rules and all the delegates must of agreed as well. Debating rules in a public forum is not the way to move the sport forward.
Ambushing your club ALSA delegate is.

People need to stop thinking about the old class 6 rules as these where a conception in 1985. They are way out dated in todays environment, maybe prehistoric. Today we all need to start referring to these yachts as mini's

Anyway now I can built a yacht within these rules and now I can go sailing in NZ and The US

Mini rules are set in concrete from ALSA ..... Lets go sailing


Hi there Hills
I would suppose if you did not have some sort of disclaimer on your plans then Yes

Clinton

Thanks boogie for the insight to the rule change, maybe it should have been posted many months ago by the President of ALSA

And perhaps the right thing to do now is for ALSA and its committee to also participate in seabreeze rather than viewing from the side and sending messages via the grapevine.
It might go a long way forward to uniting Land Sailing in Australia.

boogie said...


Hi there Hills
I would suppose if you did not have some sort of disclaimer on your plans then Yes

Clinton

Some questions that might be asked if there was problems might be, did you build it EXACTLY to plan? (not a single mm change) as the designer intended.
Did you recieve the plans free of did you purchase? What liability would the plan selling agent have? As purchase may imply some intent to build where Free might not. (just my own non legal thoughts)

No plans, no boundary, just dreams, can you and i enjoy our sailing, You Bet we can, have fun, enjoy. Want to get super competitive, win at all costs, regulate a level playing field [globalize], scrutinize every craft by yardstick, then handicap....all in ...all welcome, lets sail. . On the up beat my manufacturer recons my rejigging will be out the workshop within six weeks. B.P. is up somewhat

Gizmo said...

Rules???
So cisco, you might like to answer your own question ...

I would like to challenge that and say that a blokart with the POD skin fitted but not the perspex screen over the top WILL be compliant with the "class 6" rule.

In conjunction with class6 rules perhaps ask yourself why do I want to push the limits?

I am a minimalist when it comes to rules. But the old adage "It doesn't matter what the rules are, but it does matter that one knows what they are." still holds true.

If a person was to turn up at a race being run as a class 6 race with a blokart fitted with pod but no screen and was challenged by the scrutineer concerning the pod, it is argueable that the pod does not form a covering over the pilot and would have to be allowed.

Gizmo said...

Thanks boogie for the insight to the rule change, maybe it should have been posted many months ago by the President of ALSA

And perhaps the right thing to do now is for ALSA and its committee to also participate in seabreeze rather than viewing from the side and sending messages via the grapevine.
It might go a long way forward to uniting Land Sailing in Australia.

Hear, Hear!!!

Here is a few snipits from the blokart manual
blokart.com/

and with just these you can assume from these they hold little or no liability

cisco said...
The "public liability insurance worm" is insidiously winding it's way into the sport. Apparently the "Hunter Hawk's Blokart Bay" race track is only available to land yachts that have manufacturer's liability insurance.

If competing in land yachting events is going to require all yachts carry a manufacturer's liability insurance which is available only to "commercially manufactured yachts" it is no longer a sport. It is just another business whose primary goal is to make a monetary profit.

Is that what the majority of us want???? Not me.

So on the subject of "manufacturer's liability insurance", what is the process by which the insurers grant it??? Has the subject yacht been subjected to independant and rigourous testing to ensure it's breaking load has an acceptably safe margin over it's working load.

I seriously doubt it. Who is to say that a commercially built yacht is safer than an amateur built yacht???

If it goes down the track of "manufacturer's liability insurance", you can forget about innovation and creativity in the development of land yachts!!!

Laws are written by Lawyers for the enrichment of Lawyers.[}:)]

In order for an insurance company to grant any insurance, they must be able to assess the risk. Risk is linked to the probability and size of a payout and is therefore linked to the premium that is needed to be charged.

Theoretically, anyone can get "manufacturer's liability insurance" as long as the insurance company has a way of assessing the risk. With blokarts, Standarts, and so on, there are enough manufactured for a risk assessment to be able to be done. No, they don't have to physically test it, just use what my father once referred to as "the laboratory of life". If 5,000 units have been manufactured and not one has had a chunk break off and hit someone, the insurance company can know that they are unlikely to be up for a flood of claims. I suspect that in its early days, even blokart International would have had trouble getting cover until it had established a track record.

The problem is that for a homebuilt, where is the track record? How does the insurance company know that the builder knew how to do a proper weld? Of course, if you were a home builder and made a lot of landyachts and did manage to establish a track record of quality, you probably would be able to get insurance.

Does this imply that homebuilts are worse than manufactured landyachts? Of course not. Some will be better and some will be worse. The problem is, the insurer has no way of knowing. Manufactured landyachts have one thing in their favour - consistency. A one-off landyacht cannot have that.

I agree that insurance is a pain. Unfortunately, it is a necessary pain. You can sail without it, but you take the risk personally. I know of no club that has any personal injury insurance, so if you break your neck in a Lake Lefroy Mini or a blokart, that's your own problem. If you accept that risk (and in fact, we all do by our participation in this sport), then if you stay away from other people and property when sailing your homebuilt, you can eliminate the risk.