dean,
i think you would find that making production boards is no gold mine and by the time they research proto types, moulds, distributer, shop, freight etc the margins are quite low. I think your flogging a dead horse. There is room for production, shops, custom and backyard blokes who want there own so let it go.........
The people will decide and at the moment production boards are selling in high numbers, id say most are happy so whats the beef?.

Scotty Mac said...

dean,
i think you would find that making production boards is no gold mine and by the time they research proto types, moulds, distributer, shop, freight etc the margins are quite low. I think your flogging a dead horse. There is room for production, shops, custom and backyard blokes who want there own so let it go.........
The people will decide and at the moment production boards are selling in high numbers, id say most are happy so whats the beef?.

Gold mine or not who cares what they make. not the issue
For years sailboard weights are used as a marketing tool very tough as light as 5kg
Why not SUB's?
Yea.... I know I'm floggin a dead horse I cant belive how may people want to make an argument out of it.
I find it such a joke all these guys that have used a light board...but they wont say what it weighs....

log man said...

Dean , If you know what carbon fibre is and you know how to use it why don't you make your surfboards out of it, It's much lighter isn't it? Vacuum bagging makes things lighter doesn't it? If you didn't gloss coat it would be lighter wouldn't it ? What about a light weight fin ? Why don't you make a lightweight board ?

Yes Logman, carbon would be awesome for SUPs. I used to do full carbon goaties that were lighter than the normal and bullet proof. Expensive material though. Would definately blow the $150 budget

LSD said...

log man said...

Dean , If you know what carbon fibre is and you know how to use it why don't you make your surfboards out of it, It's much lighter isn't it? Vacuum bagging makes things lighter doesn't it? If you didn't gloss coat it would be lighter wouldn't it ? What about a light weight fin ? Why don't you make a lightweight board ?

Well basicly carbon is too stiff & brittle. Thats why its not used in surfboards, its been done the failed.
To avoid breakage more carbon needs to be used.....to costly.
& @ $60/m compared to 6...need i say more. work out a sub cost @ that price.
The amount used can be reduced to such an extent that there is no ding resistance.
Fins are near your feet & weight not such an issue here.

6 OZ of carbon still weighs the same as 6 OZ of glass , there's no real practical advantage in using carbon in these small boards.

Hey LSD,

Not really up for a cyber-bitch fight but just felt like commenting on a few things because reading was getting boring.

But it has seemed to spark up again and its a great read.

Just to answer ur questions.

"Please quote me where I have said "their boards are sh1t"

You stated: "Some guys just cant handle the fact that they just spent $2000 on the latest & greatest....& it's not"

When i read that i get the idea that you think there boards are sh1t and there are getting ripped off...maybe i've got the wrong impression.

Then you state: "How many times do I have to say that I understand that many buyers of SUB's are happy with their purchace?"

Can't say i've seen you say that before..

P.S Did my first comments get you thinking or offend you because you seemed to of replied to it twice sorry if it did.

LSD said...

I think many would agree there is some "lesser" boards comming in to AU.
One example is China made Flick, I do a bit of work for them puting on non slip in peal ply. The finish & graphics are very eye catching, but ...here I go again .....the weight, I have a Flick 10' x 28" that I use as a demo for people it weighs 15kg & the deck is collapsing like my light weight "rice bubbles" , it's not used all that much. I think the foam they use is an extruded styrene..zero water take up.Thats part of the reason for the weight.

An incident that led to the "some guys cant handle the fact that they just spent $2000 on the latest & greatest..& its not" comment of mine.
Surfing at Bells last week a guy on a new 10'+ psh paddled over to enquire about my "funny" looking board. That was all good. Later in the carpark he came over & said "can I feel the weight of your board"?
He bent over, knees bent, back straight....like he normaly lifted his board.......& almost fell over back wards as he jerked mine of the ground.....SH1T!!!
Yes mine is a "ricebubble" of a board... far smaller...but he couldnt belive the weight. Instantly he realised why it was all over the waves & his new 10"+ was not.

Mate-it's NOT just the weight - I'd say most 8'2" boards would be all over waves over a 10+ board.

And with light weight comes less durability-there's always a trade off.

Glass off said...

LSD are yyyyou tripping out???????

Please stop all your mass-debating posts about board weights.

No worries dick.h..look at the wave size difference idiot, mine is 18"
And he's a far better surfer than me.

Jon E B said...

My father told me that there are two kinds of learning: One - from personal experience. Two - from those who have lived through it, and are trying to save you some time..._

But that was before the internet.. .. just kidding.. .. That sounds about right to me..

DJ

Hi all. Been wanting to post for some time now but can't seem to get a few pic's to go over there. the photos are sup postd to show i have some idea and can join in. Maybe i'll get some younger person to show how.
Now to vent, really Shawn (sean sp or are you the dick from Raglan) WHY RARK UP THE LOCALS wheres YOUR pics bro show us where your experience base opinions spurt from. Jeez i cringe at some of these kiwi posts or is it just me.
Youse guys are way better surfers than us across the whole range and i am stoked to be able to tap into that knowledge base. LSD KNOWS A LOT OF **** anyone who can make all that stuff is someone i would listen to reverently. You can tell a man by his shed and whats in it.
Sorry Shawn but really pal, you can be a dag sometimes.

WINDSURFnSNOW said...

Hope this helps put this to bed so I'll try to keep it to facts and numbers without emotion . So I did some weighing on the scales of some production boards in the shop both windsurf and SUP.

On the SUP side the lightest boards on the rack excluding the Naish 8'0" was the Naish 8'10" and the Starboard 8'5" both at 8.5kg with fins. Retail $1699 each.

On the windsurf side at about the same volume was the Fanatic Shark 113 L which weighed in at 9.6kg with fin and straps. The retail on this guy is $1899.

To get the weight down to around 7.1 kg on the windsurf side cost some serious coin. In a carbon/kevlar constructed board like the JP Freestyle Wave 102L you pay $2999. $1300 more than the Naish.

Sure it's possible to build SUP's to this weight and strength but would the market take it at that cost.

This should be the point where the custom guys could really make their mark as long as their shapes are up to scratch.

Sam.

thank god... someone put some stuff on scales.
i dont wind surf or kite... dont know anything about there construction or dynamics. and i was trying to figure out how, after reading these sort of posts,why arent the big windsurfing companies doing it with sups if they were already doing it with windsurfers.
looks like they are already doing it the same!!!!!!!

taranakiter said...

Hi all. Been wanting to post for some time now but can't seem to get a few pic's to go over there. the photos are sup postd to show i have some idea and can join in. Maybe i'll get some younger person to show how.
Now to vent, really Shawn (sean sp or are you the dick from Raglan) WHY RARK UP THE LOCALS wheres YOUR pics bro show us where your experience base opinions spurt from. Jeez i cringe at some of these kiwi posts or is it just me.
Youse guys are way better surfers than us across the whole range and i am stoked to be able to tap into that knowledge base. LSD KNOWS A LOT OF **** anyone who can make all that stuff is someone i would listen to reverently. You can tell a man by his shed and whats in it.
Sorry Shawn but really pal, you can be a dag sometimes.

WTF????

You must surely be a wind up...you are aren't you..Good one...lol...and if you aren't that post is in poor taste.

Guy's, todays sermon..

To make a light strong sub using pvc sandwich (sail board technology) A lot less glass, resin & low density eps is used. (As we all know sail board strength in a sub is overkill....so less material again)

Material cost can be quite similar to single skin glass epoxy eps board, where their is a multi layer glass to give strength....more glass, more resin & higher density eps.
So more weight in materials = cost.

The 3mm Pvc sandwich material cost in AU is about $20 a square meter, so it's not too much more than multi layer 6oz glass single skin cost.
When pvc sandwich is laminated with glass skins of 4oz.... less glass & resin is used = Less weight = less material cost.

The main difference is in the time required to vacum the pvc on, using a form in 2 sessions then final shape & final laminate outer.
The consumables, peel ply, release, bleeder, about $50, & maybe 6 hours or so more than single skin.

So if you say it costs heaps more to do a producton sandwich board you quite wrong.

With labour costs less than $7 a day (a long day as well in Asia) Cost is less than $100 in Asia for sandwich compared to single skin. Example, a China made Flick.
Here in AU..... well you can see it will add up. The hours kill it.

When & if carbon is used in the longer boards, its China carbon not Jap.....cost is about 1/3
Something else that may upset if you want to get technical, some boards are marketed as epoxy, but its actualy a "bastardised epoxy" chemicaly more of a vinylester, another cost saving mesure.
It may appear that I am bagging production SUB's again...I am not, most are well made & designed, I would hang one on my wall any day.....may not use it.... but nice to look at...LOL

But Goatman has a long legacy in surf that some may not know!! You would expect this from him.

No offence to Dean as I don't know his surfing background.

I was lucky enough to talk to Blane yesterday and ask the question.

He believes light weight performance sup should be a custom board for durability and up to date design reasons. It takes a long time and lots of money to get from design to production so it is better to be conservative.

He was full of praise for the Aussie shapers and thinks they make a good product and will improve.

AA and I are bringing back 3 custom wood boards and 2 of them (8 6 and a 9 2) are really light. My 10 that I prised out of Austin's still twitching fingers is a bit heavier as it is designed for bigger waves.

No plans for really light weight boards soon from PSH.The newer ones are improving with better production methods in the factory so lighter and still strong. Very fine balancing act.

Generally Hawaiian board builders like strength in a board and weight helps in wind and larger waves. He acknowledged in small clean conditions it can be a handicap.

dtm said...

LSD you open yourself up to coments by ranting and raving about how good you are your boards blah blah blah then when you get compare by 2 still shots you blow up and call the guy a d head too funny mate dont dish it out if you cant take it!
mate my new light board with low rails and 28 inches wide with 3 fins rips

Yes I agree, LSD you seem to like to put up imflammatory posts that appear to be based on facts but are really just rants based on half truths and simplistic, uninformed theories that generrally denigrate other designers/manufacturers. The trouble is some people actually swallow it.

Then when someone challenges you, you become abusive and use the defence that you are concerned for the fun of other riders, etc. Yes light weight is better - pretty bloody obvious, acheiving it with mass produced boards at an inexpensive price is obviously not.

I guess it makes for good entertainment value and some useful discussion - irritating as it may be for some of us. I'm sure you are a good bloke in the flesh but the 'sermons' get a bit much after a while.