Nothing beats great design. Materials chosen are a part of that

When asked on the beach how to get into foiling I always push winging as it's the cheapest and easiest route. Foiling allows us to be at the beach a lot more than fin, hence people see us out enjoying ourselves so it's natural for them to ask about foiling.
To go windfoiling or kitefoiling you need a lot of steps as you learn to use the gear, I've never heard of anyone learning either on a foil, first is fin or twintip and added expense. The manufacturers are just chasing the easy money as the masses take up winging.

Gestalt said..

Looks like since I posted this, Simmer have adjusted the prices on their website a lot, and in a very good way if you like simmer

not sure what changed but good on simmer for actually making a difference!!

I posted earlier
PhilUK said..
Simmer have a 2 cam freerace foil sail.
simmerstyle.com/product/2023-f-max/
The 7.5m is Euro 970

Looks like they are discounting the 2023 sail, but strangely the 7.5m is reduced from 792 to 480 Euros. 40% on that figure, 50% on the figure I saw earlier.
Same reduction of 40% off in AUD. In the UK the discount is 19%.
I reckon someone's mucked it up.

Interesting thread got me thinking, I started windsurfing in the early 80's and can recall buying a HiFly295 epoxy which was the hot board that year for $1,600 which at the time was about 10% of my income. Today a new Goya board in WA costs about $4000 AUD but the equivalent job today I had then would pay about $80,000.AUD so on that basis boards are much cheaper today.

I changed to kitesurfing in 2002 which is a cheap sport by comparison then started winging in 2019.

Winging seems cheap enough (plenty of second hand gear)but once you get into it the sport is a money pit more expensive than windsurfing. To me it feels like the rush in the late 80 -90 windsurfing days. There are radical changes in foil, board and wing design. So much so that big brand products are often outdated before they get into the shops and retailers are caught with stock that has to be discounted to sell. However at the bleeding edge it's a different storey with smaller dynamic brands leading the charge with ever more exotic carbon offerings.

Here is my kit list which is constantly being updated:

107L Carbon Downwind board for winging under 15knots and SUP foil $3,300
60L Carbon high wing board over 15 knots $2,600
93cm high modulus mast ( for high wind big waves). $2,200
80cm high modulus mast $2,100
6 x front foils HA,MA various sizes $1,200 each
4 x rear tails various sizes $350 each
2 x fuse $600 each
6m, 5m,4m and 3.5m high end wings average price $2,200 each

So that's over $28,000 worth of winging gear in my car atm and most of the crew I sail with have similar quivers or more.(Dam ...I've never added this up before) it's and addictive sport so I don't care but I can't justify another $8,000 for a foil drive.

Those $2,200 wings are flogged after 1 year and you will be lucky to get $400 resale on each. (thats every year)

By comparison windsurfing gear lasts so much longer it's a cheap sport, especially if you buy new and keep it. I know because my wife windsurfs and I make sure she has all the best gear in case I want to use it. I'm looking to buy her a new 4m, I see I can get a new Combat HD in WA for $1000, that's a bargain for a sail that will last her over 5 years.

So I guess my point is stop complaining about the prices of windsurfing gear. Always buy the best gear you can afford and get on the water.

It all comes down to what you want to do and prioritise: Yes, WS equipment is expensive but so is everything else, new winging equipment is expensive too with its 2 or 3 wings, 2 or 3 boards if you do downwind and i am not talking about the plethora of wings and masts etc that you can get lost into.

I do a bit of everything: WS, Surfing, Winging and even Kitesurfing every now then but I'll always prioritize WS over everything else. I leave Winging for the days that are sub-obtimal for WS and Surfing for when there's no wind and swell; i am afraid kitesurfing is now truly well done.

What it means is i'll happily pay $2500 for a new WS board every 2/3 years, i'll replace my quiver of sails every 2 years but i refuse to pay more than $500 for a wing, i have 1 board 2 wings for a quiver and i only change it when i break. I do invest on new surfing boards every few years: the investment is not as high and you keep them longer [i am not one of those with a 12 boards quiver, i keep it simple at 3/4 boards max] and happy to, this is so gooddd.

It's all about what you love and prioritise.

Chris 249 said..

Sideshore said..

KB7 said..
Interesting thread got me thinking, I started windsurfing in the early 80's and can recall buying a HiFly295 epoxy which was the hot board that year for $1,600 which at the time was about 10% of my income. Today a new Goya board in WA costs about $4000 AUD but the equivalent job today I had then would pay about $80,000.AUD so on that basis boards are much cheaper today.

I changed to kitesurfing in 2002 which is a cheap sport by comparison then started winging in 2019.

Winging seems cheap enough (plenty of second hand gear)but once you get into it the sport is a money pit more expensive than windsurfing. To me it feels like the rush in the late 80 -90 windsurfing days. There are radical changes in foil, board and wing design. So much so that big brand products are often outdated before they get into the shops and retailers are caught with stock that has to be discounted to sell. However at the bleeding edge it's a different storey with smaller dynamic brands leading the charge with ever more exotic carbon offerings.

Here is my kit list which is constantly being updated:

107L Carbon Downwind board for winging under 15knots and SUP foil $3,300
60L Carbon high wing board over 15 knots $2,600
93cm high modulus mast ( for high wind big waves). $2,200
80cm high modulus mast $2,100
6 x front foils HA,MA various sizes $1,200 each
4 x rear tails various sizes $350 each
2 x fuse $600 each
6m, 5m,4m and 3.5m high end wings average price $2,200 each

So that's over $28,000 worth of winging gear in my car atm and most of the crew I sail with have similar quivers or more.(Dam ...I've never added this up before) it's and addictive sport so I don't care but I can't justify another $8,000 for a foil drive.

Those $2,200 wings are flogged after 1 year and you will be lucky to get $400 resale on each. (thats every year)

By comparison windsurfing gear lasts so much longer it's a cheap sport, especially if you buy new and keep it. I know because my wife windsurfs and I make sure she has all the best gear in case I want to use it. I'm looking to buy her a new 4m, I see I can get a new Combat HD in WA for $1000, that's a bargain for a sail that will last her over 5 years.

So I guess my point is stop complaining about the prices of windsurfing gear. Always buy the best gear you can afford and get on the water.

Hi

I'm happy you are so rich to update your winging stuff permanently but that's not because of a real need , the winging equipment has already been improved so much that you can keep them for many years now. The point is that you and me have different ways of buying sport equipment and resources. I don't need to change my equipment every year in any sport. I prefer to enjoy in the water as much as I can with a good board which fits my skills and water conditions.

The prices are much lower in winging for an average family buyer not only because of catalog prices but also for the following reasons:
- Less elements to buy
- More clearance offers
- Bigger second hand market
- SOME DIRECT SELLING MANUFACTURERS ON INTERNET. I've been personally affected by direct selling in my bussiness, but this can't be stopped. Technology and fast transport allow it now.

I will keep on complaining because I care this sport and I see it going down and down at the same time the prices go up and up. You can continue paying more expensive equipment but do you think the industry can survive with a bunch of rich customers?

Which is the pressure we can do when the beaches in Europe are organized in summer for different watersports if we are one or two windsurfers against dozens of kiters/wingers and hundreds of surfers?.

Do you know which is the level of prizes and salaries in windsurfing competitions? Are you aware of how many professional windsurfers are being dropped from the brands?

I know windsurfing has suffered against kitesurfing and winging because it's complexity, need of more wind and better conditions but it also has advantages against them. Let's don't suicide ourselves having the higher prices of all and let's design the equipment with a practical point of view in mind.

As a non-winger, can I ask whether winging is actually cheaper than windsurfing if done to the same level? If you are trying to get 100% of the current max performance in all conditions, does winging actually have "less elements to buy"?

One thing is that the amount of gear one needs to buy is largely subjective but also dependent on design. As an example, if you wanted to maximise performance in a sailing dinghy across a wide wind range in the same way that people often want to maximise performance on a board across a wide wind range, you'd end up with at least three rigs, three sets of foils, and arguably at least two hulls. However, the vast majority of dinghy sailors accept that they will have one set of gear from zero to 27 knots at the cost of reduced performance in any one part of the wind range.

Most windsurfers seem to demand and accept maximum performance throughout the range and therefore expect to have to buy multiple sets of gear - but that is completely subjective. For example, you can windsurf a longboard from zero to 27 (real, not BS) knots of windspeed and 0 to 32 knots of boardspeed with one board, one sail and one set of fins, or you could add one extra sail and go to 40 knots of wind.

The same thing goes with surfers from what I know - I know plenty of people who buy multiple bits of windsurfing kit but only have one surfboard. To some extent it's a physical feature of the elements and the sport but it's also arguably the fact that windsurfing has built up a culture of having lots of gear for very specialised conditions (despite what the ads say, the sail range of windsurfer sails is very small compared to say boat sails). So the expense of windsurfing is to a large part not in the sport's physical structure, but in our own culture and expectations (both high and low).

To truely compare, just pick one wind range, say 15-20 knots. Winging will be cheaper because you don't need a mast or boom. Yes you might need two wings or 2 sail sizes but their prices are similar.

Chris 249 said..As a non-winger, can I ask whether winging is actually cheaper than windsurfing if done to the same level? If you are trying to get 100% of the current max performance in all conditions, does winging actually have "less elements to buy"?

Interesting question. Wings do have a lot more range than windsurf sails - one wing covers 2-3 sails (and I'm reasonably good maxing out the range on a windsurf sails, much less so on a wing). That said, many wingers I know still have a roughly comparable number of wings. For flatwater windsurfing, I use slalom sails 5.6, 6.3, 7.0, and 7.8; for winging, I use 4.0, 5.0, 6.0, and 6.5. The biggest difference is that wings keep working quite well when the wind increases or decreases. Wingers stay on the water, windsurfers go in to switch gear.

I think cost of wings will end up being slightly higher than for sails. Both last about 100 sessions (with exceptions like Ezzy sails that last a lot longer), but sail life usually can be doubled or tripled by replacing panels. Wings seem to getting worn out a lot more, perhaps unless you're willing to pay 50-100% more for high grade wings. But you don't need masts, booms, or extensions (if using wing booms, they are a fraction of the cost of a windsurf boom).

Wing boards are likely to be cheaper in the long run. They are smaller, and construction is simpler, so costs are typically lower. 2 wing boards is generally fine, with one board often being the mostly used board. Most windsurfers I know have at least 3-4 windsurf boards (more if you mix disciplines). My wife and I have 4 wing boards, brought 5 speed/slalom boards on the current trip, and left a larger number of windsurf boards at home; before starting to wing, we had about 8 boards between us that saw regular use, and a few more for the rare very windy days.

One big difference is that in windsurfing, "100% of max performance" requires different boards for different scenarios. I still have FSW boards for B&J, a freestyle board, slalom and speed boards, longboards, and a foil board. Most windsurfers may stick more to one "discipline", but often still have 3-4 sizes. With winging, that seems to be much less common; instead, a typical scenario is a go-to board and a second board for light wind or high wind days, depending on what's typical. For a while, it seemed that downwind boards might add a new category, but a lot of wingers are now using their downwind board as the go-to board.

About a decade ago, when we were only windsurfing, we bought a high roof van to fit 6-10 boards, a similar number of masts, and a few more sails. Now we're mostly winging, except when traveling to speed spots, and will probably replace the van with a minivan or SUV. So yes, there are definitely a lot less "elements to buy" (and to bring to the beach) for winging.

boardsurfr said..

Chris 249 said..As a non-winger, can I ask whether winging is actually cheaper than windsurfing if done to the same level? If you are trying to get 100% of the current max performance in all conditions, does winging actually have "less elements to buy"?

Interesting question. Wings do have a lot more range than windsurf sails - one wing covers 2-3 sails (and I'm reasonably good maxing out the range on a windsurf sails, much less so on a wing). That said, many wingers I know still have a roughly comparable number of wings. For flatwater windsurfing, I use slalom sails 5.6, 6.3, 7.0, and 7.8; for winging, I use 4.0, 5.0, 6.0, and 6.5. The biggest difference is that wings keep working quite well when the wind increases or decreases. Wingers stay on the water, windsurfers go in to switch gear.

I think cost of wings will end up being slightly higher than for sails. Both last about 100 sessions (with exceptions like Ezzy sails that last a lot longer), but sail life usually can be doubled or tripled by replacing panels. Wings seem to getting worn out a lot more, perhaps unless you're willing to pay 50-100% more for high grade wings. But you don't need masts, booms, or extensions (if using wing booms, they are a fraction of the cost of a windsurf boom).

Wing boards are likely to be cheaper in the long run. They are smaller, and construction is simpler, so costs are typically lower. 2 wing boards is generally fine, with one board often being the mostly used board. Most windsurfers I know have at least 3-4 windsurf boards (more if you mix disciplines). My wife and I have 4 wing boards, brought 5 speed/slalom boards on the current trip, and left a larger number of windsurf boards at home; before starting to wing, we had about 8 boards between us that saw regular use, and a few more for the rare very windy days.

One big difference is that in windsurfing, "100% of max performance" requires different boards for different scenarios. I still have FSW boards for B&J, a freestyle board, slalom and speed boards, longboards, and a foil board. Most windsurfers may stick more to one "discipline", but often still have 3-4 sizes. With winging, that seems to be much less common; instead, a typical scenario is a go-to board and a second board for light wind or high wind days, depending on what's typical. For a while, it seemed that downwind boards might add a new category, but a lot of wingers are now using their downwind board as the go-to board.

About a decade ago, when we were only windsurfing, we bought a high roof van to fit 6-10 boards, a similar number of masts, and a few more sails. Now we're mostly winging, except when traveling to speed spots, and will probably replace the van with a minivan or SUV. So yes, there are definitely a lot less "elements to buy" (and to bring to the beach) for winging.

Great information, thanks.

Is it possible to know whether the wingers choose a smaller number of boards (and wings) because that's all they need, or is it possible that as winging develops there will be more niches and that each need will "need" a different type of board as in windsurfing? I can understand that it could go either way.

As an example, in the dawn of windsurfing you only "needed" one board; then later you "needed" a shortboard; then you "needed" a sinker; then a Raceboard; then a slalom board; then a speed board, then a freestyle board, then a FSW, etc etc etc etc.

I can see that because wings operate in a different way, there may not be the same physical need to build different boards and therefore the industry may not be able to create niches as it did in windsurfing.

I've only tried winging once and there wasn't enough wind to get on the foil, but it does seem to have some inherent advantages over windfoiling. I haven't used my windfoil for a year.

Chris 249 said..

boardsurfr said..

Chris 249 said..As a non-winger, can I ask whether winging is actually cheaper than windsurfing if done to the same level? If you are trying to get 100% of the current max performance in all conditions, does winging actually have "less elements to buy"?

Interesting question. Wings do have a lot more range than windsurf sails - one wing covers 2-3 sails (and I'm reasonably good maxing out the range on a windsurf sails, much less so on a wing). That said, many wingers I know still have a roughly comparable number of wings. For flatwater windsurfing, I use slalom sails 5.6, 6.3, 7.0, and 7.8; for winging, I use 4.0, 5.0, 6.0, and 6.5. The biggest difference is that wings keep working quite well when the wind increases or decreases. Wingers stay on the water, windsurfers go in to switch gear.

I think cost of wings will end up being slightly higher than for sails. Both last about 100 sessions (with exceptions like Ezzy sails that last a lot longer), but sail life usually can be doubled or tripled by replacing panels. Wings seem to getting worn out a lot more, perhaps unless you're willing to pay 50-100% more for high grade wings. But you don't need masts, booms, or extensions (if using wing booms, they are a fraction of the cost of a windsurf boom).

Wing boards are likely to be cheaper in the long run. They are smaller, and construction is simpler, so costs are typically lower. 2 wing boards is generally fine, with one board often being the mostly used board. Most windsurfers I know have at least 3-4 windsurf boards (more if you mix disciplines). My wife and I have 4 wing boards, brought 5 speed/slalom boards on the current trip, and left a larger number of windsurf boards at home; before starting to wing, we had about 8 boards between us that saw regular use, and a few more for the rare very windy days.

One big difference is that in windsurfing, "100% of max performance" requires different boards for different scenarios. I still have FSW boards for B&J, a freestyle board, slalom and speed boards, longboards, and a foil board. Most windsurfers may stick more to one "discipline", but often still have 3-4 sizes. With winging, that seems to be much less common; instead, a typical scenario is a go-to board and a second board for light wind or high wind days, depending on what's typical. For a while, it seemed that downwind boards might add a new category, but a lot of wingers are now using their downwind board as the go-to board.

About a decade ago, when we were only windsurfing, we bought a high roof van to fit 6-10 boards, a similar number of masts, and a few more sails. Now we're mostly winging, except when traveling to speed spots, and will probably replace the van with a minivan or SUV. So yes, there are definitely a lot less "elements to buy" (and to bring to the beach) for winging.

Great information, thanks.

Is it possible to know whether the wingers choose a smaller number of boards (and wings) because that's all they need, or is it possible that as winging develops there will be more niches and that each need will "need" a different type of board as in windsurfing? I can understand that it could go either way.

As an example, in the dawn of windsurfing you only "needed" one board; then later you "needed" a shortboard; then you "needed" a sinker; then a Raceboard; then a slalom board; then a speed board, then a freestyle board, then a FSW, etc etc etc etc.

I can see that because wings operate in a different way, there may not be the same physical need to build different boards and therefore the industry may not be able to create niches as it did in windsurfing.

I've only tried winging once and there wasn't enough wind to get on the foil, but it does seem to have some inherent advantages over windfoiling. I haven't used my windfoil for a year.

Not an expert in the area but there seems to be a large amount of discussion in the last year or so about boards for the low end - and the Kalama style downwind boards (longer) seem to have grabbed a lot of attention. The intent is a longer waterline which allows the board to more easily get up to foiling speed in light winds.

While wingers have fewer boards, they make up with it with wings and stabs. I've known a few to buy both the way some people buy shoes. As a windfoiler who lives in a glass house, I refuse to throw any stones in this area as I'm probably as bad or worse than they are.

Chris 249 said..
Is it possible to know whether the wingers choose a smaller number of boards (and wings) because that's all they need, or is it possible that as winging develops there will be more niches and that each need will "need" a different type of board as in windsurfing?

The board is in the air when you wing, so the shape does not matter much. There was a lot of talk about "swing weight" slowing down turns, and strong pressure to move towards smaller and smaller boards. But for a lot of average-skilled, not-so-fast learning wingers, that was a bit being led down the wrong road by fast-learning, highly-skilled experts. The one time where the board shape really matters is before you actually foil. There, we are seeing the transition to narrow and long shapes. Suddenly, "swing weight" is much less of an issue, even with boards 2+ feet longer than small traditional boards. That's partly (mostly?) because the foil is mounted more to the center of the board, leading to a more centered stance, and a similar length of board in front of you as on a much smaller board. There are plenty of reports of wingers who now only use narrower and longer boards.

Paducah said..
While wingers have fewer boards, they make up with it with wings and stabs. I've known a few to buy both the way some people buy shoes.

Some wingers certainly love to buy a lot of front and rear wings. Wings are similar to windsurf boards in so far as that this is the part that's in contact with the water, so the wing shape really matters. One reason to buy lots of foils in a short time frame is that the increase in skill is very fast, compared to windsurfing. The advantage for winging is that new wings are a lot cheaper than new windsurf boards - less than $1000 US for a new front wing, maybe $300 for a new tail wing, compared to $2000-3000 for a new windsurf board. Of course, some people have a lot of money to spend, and like to spend it, so they end up buying entire lines of foils when something new comes out. The fact that new foil lines which are clearly better than older foils certainly helps to drive sales - in windsurfing, you have to a firm marketing believer to buy new gear because it is "better". I currently have just one front wing and two stabs that I use for winging, with some need to buy a second front wing for higher winds; my wife has 2 front wings that are in use. We both also have older foils that we learned or improved on, but don't use anymore for one reason or another, and are too lazy to sell.

At 80kgs I use a 74 lts wing board from 8-30knots, just changing front wings to suit conditions. My sailboard is 92lts, only used occasionally and needs good wind to get going, at least 17+knots. Secondhand wing gear is easy to sell, almost have to give sailboard gear away.
I can't see sailboard gear getting any cheaper, can't do big manufacturing runs as the new sales just aren't there.

Mmmmm as a new winger to get into winging its cheaper BUT!!!! To Upgrade its way more pricey.
Windsurfing..1k Board, $800 for harness ,fin and base. $1500 for boom and mast. Sail $600 Total $3900. Change the sail to new $4900 total

Winging..1k Board, $1500 foil, wing $250(yep it was cheap) total $2750 . Change the wind to new $2.5k
your at $5000 total.
But every upgrade you loose $1500 on the wing, windsurfing your loose $900.
I've based this on 10-30 kts using a 7.7 for the windsurfing and a 6 for the wing and there's no way I'm using the wing in 30kts. Winging is expensive as it the new kid in town and it's changing quickly. It will settle down .. Hopefully

Mr Keen said..
Not sure what the noise is about no matter what wind addition you have it's expensive. Was heading out for a session recently and a kid on the beach said "I want to do that". Mum said "that's for rich people "
I am not rich but definitely put things into perspective....

Lol she prob dated a windsurfer once

Gestalt said..
Lol she prob dated a windsurfer once

Chicks don't date windsurfers!

It's cos we're all old
We could pick up old hens.