Forums > Windsurfing   Gps and Speed talk

LOCOSYS wil not replace GW-60 broken band

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Created by bedzplane > 9 months ago, 23 Feb 2018
boardsurfr
WA, 731 posts
17 Nov 2018 9:07PM
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decrepit said..
Agreed the warranty thing is very disappointing, but that's between sailor and shop, leave me out of it.


Unfortunately, it's not the shop, it's the manufacturer. I had full support by my shop whenever issues came up. He answered all my emails quickly, usually the same day, and cc'd me on all the emails he then sent to Locosys. The responses from Locosys took a lot longer, usually several days, and often were absolutely not helpful. For example, Locosys pretty much refused to tell me or the shop how much a screen repair would cost for several weeks. Only when I eventually send the watch back to the shop (together with a warranty return) did Locosys say that the repair cost would be the same as the cost for a new watch.

Locosys handling of the broken armband issue is just absolutely appalling.

I assume that the reason why it is hard to impossible to get the watch in Australia is that the shops don't want to deal with a manufacturer that does not honor warranties. It is quite possible that the shop would indeed be on the hook under local law, since they sold the watch; but it certainly should be the manufacturer's responsibility to cover the cost.

sailquik
VIC, 4333 posts
18 Nov 2018 12:16AM
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I have been told by one retailer that Locosys have been actually very good about all his warranty and repair claims. He had no complaints about that side of it.

His only problem was the cost to him of returning the items for repair/replacement was too high to be economically sustainable.

But again, that cost is an issue that Locosys should address as well.

Cocky2
QLD, 114 posts
18 Nov 2018 7:03AM
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sailquik said..
I have been told by one retailer that Locosys have been actually very good about all his warranty and repair claims. He had no complaints about that side of it.

His only problem was the cost to him of returning the items for repair/replacement was too high to be economically sustainable.

But again, that cost is an issue that Locosys should address as well.






It took me 6 weeks to get a replacement and I had to pay for postage.
It was a painfull experience as Firstly I had to take a video of the problem and put it in Dropbox for them to see before I could even send it back.

Under Australian consumer Law the faulty product is covered past the 12 month warranty period especially when it is a know fault such as the band. The retailer does not make enough to cover these unless Locosys provides replacement.

Out of a batch of 20 watches sold by local retailer 3 have had broken bands.
Not many retailers selling watches in Australia at present.

sboardcrazy
NSW, 6450 posts
18 Nov 2018 1:27PM
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I've taken a punt and bought one.. I've read parts of this post but can someone summarise the best way to look after them to avoid problems?

decrepit
WA, 8971 posts
18 Nov 2018 1:34PM
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Wash in fresh water after each sail, this will help with the bad connection problem. Store with band done up, this will prevent the band getting bent backwards.
And remember if it's not used for 10 days it turns right off instead of just going to sleep. Once it's turned off it has to be connected to power to wake up. It's a good idea to have a spare charger cord in the car, in case you forget how long ago you last used it.

sailquik
VIC, 4333 posts
18 Nov 2018 6:21PM
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Yep, all of the above. But also don't wear it as a normal watch all the time. Just use it when actually sailing.

decrepit
WA, 8971 posts
18 Nov 2018 3:39PM
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AND, BIG one. don't press buttons when they are wet. The manual says don't press underwater, but to be sure I don't press buttons unless they are dry, Pressed buttons allow the watch to vent, if the interior of the watch has cooled off, it's going to suck, any wet around the buttons could end up inside.
This is a bummer, because it negates a lot of the advantages of the watch.

Jonski
WA, 54 posts
18 Nov 2018 7:34PM
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When you get the com port error use cotton buds to clean the connections on the watch and check the springs on the charger ??

boardsurfr
WA, 731 posts
18 Nov 2018 9:18PM
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Jonski said..
When you get the com port error use cotton buds to clean the connections on the watch and check the springs on the charger ??


The springs on the charger cable definitely can be an issue. One of the three cables I have does not work anymore.


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sboardcrazy said..
.. can someone summarise the best way to look after them to avoid problems?


In addition what everyone else said, get some screen protectors for the watch to prevent the glass from breaking (it breaks very easily!). Round 38 mm watch screen protectors work well. They'll break surprisingly easily, but cost only a few dollars to replace. I'm using these: www.amazon.com/gp/product/B071FQHZYX/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o07_s00 but I don't think the brand matters much.

sboardcrazy
NSW, 6450 posts
19 Nov 2018 6:39AM
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Great stuff guys! Thanks. yep I'll only be using it when I sail..I have a $25 Big W waterproof watch for everyday use..

pepe47
WA, 1196 posts
19 Nov 2018 7:03AM
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I'm using superglue on each crack that appears in the strap. Up to 12 so far, won't be long now..
In fact, the strongest part of this watch is the superglue I'm adding.

decrepit
WA, 8971 posts
19 Nov 2018 9:20AM
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pepe47 said..
I'm using superglue on each crack that appears in the strap. Up to 12 so far, won't be long now..
In fact, the strongest part of this watch is the superglue I'm adding.


Hey Paul, make sure you get the serial number to Dylan before you loose the watch!

Or I can have a go at making one good one out of your's and slugger's. then you two can fight over how to split it.

Carindale
QLD, 292 posts
19 Nov 2018 12:24PM
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sboardcrazy said..
I've taken a punt and bought one.. I've read parts of this post but can someone summarise the best way to look after them to avoid problems?


Probably safer not to use at all! Leave it at home unpacked and you will have no problems Just joking..........Two tips I would give would be:
1) the battery is complete rubbish so if you planning on sailing all day, or a number of sessions during a day (changing gear etc) have a back up gps as the battery runs out very quickly.
2) It only stores a single file so make sure you clear the watch before you next sailing day, unless you have the ability to edit/cut files to isolate certain sessions.

Hroar
QLD, 90 posts
20 Nov 2018 7:37AM
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Checked out the local reject shop for locosys but they said the quality wasn't up to their standards.

sboardcrazy
NSW, 6450 posts
20 Nov 2018 10:18AM
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Carindale said..

sboardcrazy said..
I've taken a punt and bought one.. I've read parts of this post but can someone summarise the best way to look after them to avoid problems?



Probably safer not to use at all! Leave it at home unpacked and you will have no problems Just joking..........Two tips I would give would be:
1) the battery is complete rubbish so if you planning on sailing all day, or a number of sessions during a day (changing gear etc) have a back up gps as the battery runs out very quickly.
2) It only stores a single file so make sure you clear the watch before you next sailing day, unless you have the ability to edit/cut files to isolate certain sessions.


Thanks.. I'm planning to use my GT31 as usual to post .. although the one go I had with a watch it was 0.2 more optimistic than the GT31.. Do the watches get knocked back much with KA72?

sboardcrazy
NSW, 6450 posts
20 Nov 2018 10:22AM
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I don't have the watch yet.. the charging cords are they easily available , the usual type USB type cords you can buy from a computer/ electrical shop ?

tbwonder
NSW, 156 posts
20 Nov 2018 11:49AM
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No it is a special cable
www.windsurfinggear.com.au/products/locosys-usb-cable-for-gw60

Cocky2
QLD, 114 posts
20 Nov 2018 11:26AM
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sboardcrazy said..

Carindale said..


sboardcrazy said..
I've taken a punt and bought one.. I've read parts of this post but can someone summarise the best way to look after them to avoid problems?




Probably safer not to use at all! Leave it at home unpacked and you will have no problems Just joking..........Two tips I would give would be:
1) the battery is complete rubbish so if you planning on sailing all day, or a number of sessions during a day (changing gear etc) have a back up gps as the battery runs out very quickly.
2) It only stores a single file so make sure you clear the watch before you next sailing day, unless you have the ability to edit/cut files to isolate certain sessions.



Thanks.. I'm planning to use my GT31 as usual to post .. although the one go I had with a watch it was 0.2 more optimistic than the GT31.. Do the watches get knocked back much with KA72?


Sue, There are no issues with upload to KA once you download the file.
If you use the utility to download it is always best after you have the file saved in your computer and uploaded to Ka for posting to then
quick clear LOG
Delete All SPD Del
Then Disconnect
Then exit.

This seems to help with connection issues when you use it next.
I used to get a lot of COM port errors before doing this.

Also good to have a spare charger cable in car for USB so you can charge during breaks to make it last longer than 5 hrs.

Carindale
QLD, 292 posts
20 Nov 2018 12:19PM
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sboardcrazy said..
Thanks.. I'm planning to use my GT31 as usual to post .. although the one go I had with a watch it was 0.2 more optimistic than the GT31.. Do the watches get knocked back much with KA72?


Actually I think the watch is usually spot on and what I see displayed on the watch is reflected once uploaded to KA. I did however have an alpha knocked back a bit, but I think this was the only thing ive noticed after a number of sessions.

sailquik
VIC, 4333 posts
20 Nov 2018 1:57PM
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sboardcrazy said..

Carindale said..


sboardcrazy said..
I've taken a punt and bought one.. I've read parts of this post but can someone summarise the best way to look after them to avoid problems?




Probably safer not to use at all! Leave it at home unpacked and you will have no problems Just joking..........Two tips I would give would be:
1) the battery is complete rubbish so if you planning on sailing all day, or a number of sessions during a day (changing gear etc) have a back up gps as the battery runs out very quickly.
2) It only stores a single file so make sure you clear the watch before you next sailing day, unless you have the ability to edit/cut files to isolate certain sessions.



Thanks.. I'm planning to use my GT31 as usual to post .. although the one go I had with a watch it was 0.2 more optimistic than the GT31.. Do the watches get knocked back much with KA72?


The term 'knocked back' is undefined here.

If I understand your intended meaning correctly, it is also a quite incorrect term to use.

I think you mean the difference you see between the MAX speed display value, and the calculated 2 second speed.

Of course, they are going to be different. The first is an instantaneous peak speed, and the second is an average over 2 seconds!!!!

KA72 does not 'knock back' your speed at all!

And of course the 1 second peak MAX speed in the GT-31 is going to be higher than the calculated 2 second average calculated by KA-72 or any of the GPS software analysis tools.

And yes, the peak speed displayed on the GW-60 is going to be even higher most of the time as it is an instant speed over only 0.2 seconds.
Add to that the fact that there is some occillation in the instant readings at higher Hz, (as they not filtered/smoothed) and that 0.2 second peak is not very reliable. But the 2 second average of 10 readings is probably going to be more accurate than the 2 second average using 2 readings on the GT-31, as the higher Hz unit records more data enabling the software can find the fastest part of your run with more resolution.

In any case, if you want to see a realistic 2 second speed on your GW-60 on the water, just set the average speed readout to 2 seconds (I think maybe most sailors set it to 10 seconds?) and ignore the Max speed reading.

sailquik
VIC, 4333 posts
20 Nov 2018 2:17PM
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Carindale said..



sboardcrazy said..
Thanks.. I'm planning to use my GT31 as usual to post .. although the one go I had with a watch it was 0.2 more optimistic than the GT31.. Do the watches get knocked back much with KA72?





Actually I think the watch is usually spot on and what I see displayed on the watch is reflected once uploaded to KA. I did however have an alpha knocked back a bit, but I think this was the only thing ive noticed after a number of sessions.



Please: Can we not continue to use the misleading term 'knocked back'.

Regarding observed Alpha differences between the GW-60 Genie display and the Alpha calculated by KA-72 and the other GPS analysis tools:

The Genie in the watch uses a fundementaly different method to calculate the Alpha proximity. They do this because it is much easier to program into the watch. But that method is subject to Course Over Ground (COG) errors and sometimes we see quite significant differences between the results of the two different methods.

That is not to say the method used in all the analysis software by mutual agreement, is not subject to error as well. It is! But in extensive analysis and testing, we determined that the scale of potential error using the Doppler COG, is much greater than using Positional data for the proximity circle.

There is no real answer for this until technology advances. If something like the use of RTK enables us much more accurate (cm level) positional data, that may solve it in the future. In the meantime, that is the reason why there are no offical records for Alphas, and we must read Alpha rankings understanding that they cannot currently be as reliably accurate as the straight line speeds.

I hope that helps explain the differences you may see.

decrepit
WA, 8971 posts
20 Nov 2018 11:36AM
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sailquik said..
>>>>>

In any case, if you want to see a realistic 2 second speed on your GW-60 on the water, just set the average speed readout to 2 seconds (I think maybe most sailors set it to 10 seconds?) and ignore the Max speed reading.



Andrew, how often do you use the watch? Have you got the latest firmware???

We went to great trouble with locosys, to get 3 separate speed readouts. max speed (which is irrelevant,) Ns and Ms. On my watch I don't display max speed, I display 2s average and 10s average.

Ns is used to calculate the 5X average, so set that to 10s and set Ms to 2s, and as Andrew says , turn max speed off.
That way you see both your 2s average and your 10s average.

Sue I don't use KA72, but I'd be extremely surprised, if it shows more than a small fraction of a knot difference.

And Carindale, the watch calculates alphas a bit differently to all the other software. The watch doesn't display some alphas that other software gives and vise versa. There are two differences, the watch uses doppler data to calculate the 50m separation the others use trackpoints, (we have a disagreement among experts here as to which is better). And the watch hasn't got the processing power to calculate all alpha possibilities, so it's limited to those over 300m total length. Any alphas under 300m aren't going to be super fast, but other software goes shorter. I think KA72 gives 100m alphas and over. Realspeed will give an alpha of any length as long as there is the required change of direction.

As to preferred posting option, if the GT31 is worn in an optimum position, it's very accurate, but if on the arm it can slip down under the arm. This is far from optimum!

The watch on the other hand, has the under over grip thing, but it seems to cope with that better than we expected. So If you have problems maintaining the GT31 on top of you arm, the watch probably will have a more consistent accuracy, as it's 5hz, it will also be able to pick the best part of a 2s peak, so you won't miss out on your best speed.

decrepit
WA, 8971 posts
20 Nov 2018 11:38AM
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You beat me Andrew,

Simon100
QLD, 482 posts
20 Nov 2018 3:10PM
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sailquik said..

sboardcrazy said..


Carindale said..



sboardcrazy said..
I've taken a punt and bought one.. I've read parts of this post but can someone summarise the best way to look after them to avoid problems?





Probably safer not to use at all! Leave it at home unpacked and you will have no problems Just joking..........Two tips I would give would be:
1) the battery is complete rubbish so if you planning on sailing all day, or a number of sessions during a day (changing gear etc) have a back up gps as the battery runs out very quickly.
2) It only stores a single file so make sure you clear the watch before you next sailing day, unless you have the ability to edit/cut files to isolate certain sessions.




Thanks.. I'm planning to use my GT31 as usual to post .. although the one go I had with a watch it was 0.2 more optimistic than the GT31.. Do the watches get knocked back much with KA72?



The term 'knocked back' is undefined here.

If I understand your intended meaning correctly, it is also a quite incorrect term to use.

I think you mean the difference you see between the MAX speed display value, and the calculated 2 second speed.

Of course, they are going to be different. The first is an instantaneous peak speed, and the second is an average over 2 seconds!!!!

KA72 does not 'knock back' your speed at all!

And of course the 1 second peak MAX speed in the GT-31 is going to be higher than the calculated 2 second average calculated by KA-72 or any of the GPS software analysis tools.

And yes, the peak speed displayed on the GW-60 is going to be even higher most of the time as it is an instant speed over only 0.2 seconds.
Add to that the fact that there is some occillation in the instant readings at higher Hz, (as they not filtered/smoothed) and that 0.2 second peak is not very reliable. But the 2 second average of 10 readings is probably going to be more accurate than the 2 second average using 2 readings on the GT-31, as the higher Hz unit records more data enabling the software can find the fastest part of your run with more resolution.

In any case, if you want to see a realistic 2 second speed on your GW-60 on the water, just set the average speed readout to 2 seconds (I think maybe most sailors set it to 10 seconds?) and ignore the Max speed reading.


The Ka knocks back the numbers to what it thinks is right :)
The watch does show 2 sec and that is filtered there is no way it isnt , if you used 3 satelites you could have a raw measurment that you could present as the actuall number once you have more than that you will have to filter adjust and average because they arnt all going to agree. All these devices have massive filtering and averaging happening thats half the reason numbers coming out of them are much closer to reality now than they used to be.

mathew
VIC, 1708 posts
20 Nov 2018 4:54PM
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sailquik said..
Yep, all of the above. But also don't wear it as a normal watch all the time. Just use it when actually sailing.


my $0.02.... It is a watch, as well as being a GPS - it should be able to be used as such. Or dont make a watch-form-factor.

Carindale
QLD, 292 posts
20 Nov 2018 5:18PM
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decrepit said..

sailquik said..
>>>>>

In any case, if you want to see a realistic 2 second speed on your GW-60 on the water, just set the average speed readout to 2 seconds (I think maybe most sailors set it to 10 seconds?) and ignore the Max speed reading.




Andrew, how often do you use the watch? Have you got the latest firmware???

We went to great trouble with locosys, to get 3 separate speed readouts. max speed (which is irrelevant,) Ns and Ms. On my watch I don't display max speed, I display 2s average and 10s average.

Ns is used to calculate the 5X average, so set that to 10s and set Ms to 2s, and as Andrew says , turn max speed off.
That way you see both your 2s average and your 10s average.

Sue I don't use KA72, but I'd be extremely surprised, if it shows more than a small fraction of a knot difference.

And Carindale, the watch calculates alphas a bit differently to all the other software. The watch doesn't display some alphas that other software gives and vise versa. There are two differences, the watch uses doppler data to calculate the 50m separation the others use trackpoints, (we have a disagreement among experts here as to which is better). And the watch hasn't got the processing power to calculate all alpha possibilities, so it's limited to those over 300m total length. Any alphas under 300m aren't going to be super fast, but other software goes shorter. I think KA72 gives 100m alphas and over. Realspeed will give an alpha of any length as long as there is the required change of direction.

As to preferred posting option, if the GT31 is worn in an optimum position, it's very accurate, but if on the arm it can slip down under the arm. This is far from optimum!

The watch on the other hand, has the under over grip thing, but it seems to cope with that better than we expected. So If you have problems maintaining the GT31 on top of you arm, the watch probably will have a more consistent accuracy, as it's 5hz, it will also be able to pick the best part of a 2s peak, so you won't miss out on your best speed.


No dramas, I had an alpha over 20 (on watch) reduced to under 20 when uploaded through KA.

decrepit
WA, 8971 posts
20 Nov 2018 3:45PM
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Probably a different alpha then, That's why it's good to process your own data, (especially with alphas,) you can see what's going on.
The 20 on the watch may have just been within the 50m using doppler but just outside using trackpoints. That would let you know that you're going too wide. if it's a valid alpha using both methods, there should only be fractions of a knt difference.

seanhogan
2996 posts
20 Nov 2018 4:30PM
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sailquik said..

The Genie in the watch uses a fundementaly different method to calculate the Alpha


What !!!....???? all that talk about scientific doppler error m/s RTK cog 0.2 herz data.... just to learn today it's a genie in a watch that does the maths !!!!
He better be good !!!




sailquik
VIC, 4333 posts
20 Nov 2018 7:59PM
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mathew said..
my $0.02.... It is a watch, as well as being a GPS - it should be able to be used as such. Or dont make a watch-form-factor.



Maybe, but it is primarily designed for speed sailing only. That is why the screen times out when not in GPS mode.

sailquik
VIC, 4333 posts
20 Nov 2018 8:08PM
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decrepit said..
Andrew, how often do you use the watch? Have you got the latest firmware???

We went to great trouble with locosys, to get 3 separate speed readouts. max speed (which is irrelevant,) Ns and Ms. On my watch I don't display max speed, I display 2s average and 10s average. etc............




Every time I sail Mike.
BUT. I am very sorry. I just can't be bothered changing the firmware. Partly because I don't have an up to date version of Windows and I am a little worried anout using a VM ware installation for such a critical operation. I am perfectly satisfied with the feedback I get with the original standard firmware so far.
I am certain though, that there are heaps of sailors who very much appreciate your efforts to persuade Locosys to add all the enhanced features.
And I have GPS-Logit if I really want to monitor feedback on all the categories, and it also does NM.



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Forums > Windsurfing   Gps and Speed talk


"LOCOSYS wil not replace GW-60 broken band" started by bedzplane