Forums > General Discussion   Shooting the breeze...

Vaccine who has it who hasn't who won't?

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Created by Razzonater 4 months ago, 25 Jun 2021
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FormulaNova
WA, 12527 posts
6 Jul 2021 10:03PM
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Kamikuza said..
FormulaNova said..
Interesting. How do you separate the people that have reactions to the vaccine from people that might die from having Covid? Its an impossible ask.

I guess the idea is that the vulnerable get the vacccine to try and prevent them from dying if they get Covid, but because they are vulnerable maybe they are more likely to get a reaction?


When you're pursuing an eradication strategy and haven'tmore than a half-dozen deaths in the past year, or 29 in total, then any deaths over that.

Any reaction to a vaccine is your immune system doing what it's supposed to do, which is a good thing. When it goes beyond that, there's something wrong somewhere.

If the rate of deaths is factored into it, where *do* you draw the line and consider that the treatment is doing more harm than good?


Well, I think we all accept that an eradication strategy is only applicable to Aus and NZ and only in the short term. After that, we need to be immune or live with the risk.

At what point do you say to vaccinate or do you continue with eradication here forever? I am pretty sure no one wants to keep us separate from the rest of the world forever, so that means that we must vaccinate or get exposed to it.

What are the reactions from? From mRNA? From additives that would cause the reaction on their own? Something else? We have no way of knowing who will be affected. The numbers are so low that they wouldn't be significant in any trial, so how do you ever determine a vaccine is safe? It sounds like any vaccine for anything could carry the same risks.

IanR
NSW, 1150 posts
7 Jul 2021 12:04AM
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Really Kami
In NZ there have only been 2758 case of COVID-19 leading to 28 deaths
Your logic is flawed.
Covid 19 has killed about 1 in 100
and Pfizer is killing 1 in 100000
so about 1000 times less deadly

Kamikuza
QLD, 6177 posts
7 Jul 2021 9:02AM
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FormulaNova said..
Well, I think we all accept that an eradication strategy is only applicable to Aus and NZ and only in the short term. After that, we need to be immune or live with the risk.

At what point do you say to vaccinate or do you continue with eradication here forever? I am pretty sure no one wants to keep us separate from the rest of the world forever, so that means that we must vaccinate or get exposed to it.

What are the reactions from? From mRNA? From additives that would cause the reaction on their own? Something else? We have no way of knowing who will be affected. The numbers are so low that they wouldn't be significant in any trial, so how do you ever determine a vaccine is safe? It sounds like any vaccine for anything could carry the same risks.


That's the question, isn't it. People are made sick who otherwise would not have gotten sick, and there's the associated risk with it. Remember, the whole eradication strategy is to stop people even getting sick in the first place...

IIRC it's the immune reaction to the spike protein the vaccine tricks your cells into producing, in order to learn to combat the actual virus, should it be encountered.

Kamikuza
QLD, 6177 posts
7 Jul 2021 9:03AM
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IanR said..
Really Kami
In NZ there have only been 2758 case of COVID-19 leading to 28 deaths
Your logic is flawed.
Covid 19 has killed about 1 in 100
and Pfizer is killing 1 in 100000
so about 1000 times less deadly


So, Pfizer vaccine is killing more people than would have died otherwise. Understood.

And if COVID is so not deadly, why bother vaccinating?

hilly
WA, 6267 posts
7 Jul 2021 7:16AM
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Booked Pfizer for Friday the 13th. What could go wrong

airsail
QLD, 781 posts
7 Jul 2021 9:46AM
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Second dose of AZ next week, I must say I'm feeling quite superior and will be happily spreading Covid amongst the antivax community. This if the crap they are sprouting is in any way true

psychojoe
WA, 1295 posts
7 Jul 2021 7:53AM
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airsail said..
Second dose of AZ next week, I must say I'm feeling quite superior and will be happily spreading Covid amongst the antivax community. This if the crap they are sprouting is in any way true



So far as I know it's the Pfizer that contains the spike protein, and the theory is that during viral shedding post vaccination, the protein is shared, which could be plausible for all I know but if it were then countries with high Vax rates would have reached herd immunity by now.
Although, the whole family has been unwell since the wife got her second Pfizer so there might be something to it.

airsail
QLD, 781 posts
7 Jul 2021 9:57AM
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psychojoe said..

airsail said..
Second dose of AZ next week, I must say I'm feeling quite superior and will be happily spreading Covid amongst the antivax community. This if the crap they are sprouting is in any way true



So far as I know it's the Pfizer that contains the spike protein, and the theory is that during viral shedding post vaccination, the protein is shared, which could be plausible for all I know but if it were then countries with high Vax rates would have reached herd immunity by now.


Bugger, I should have got Pfizer then. Oh well, next time, current research is showing mixing Pfizer and AZ gives even better immunity.

FormulaNova
WA, 12527 posts
7 Jul 2021 8:01AM
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Kamikuza said..

IIRC it's the immune reaction to the spike protein the vaccine tricks your cells into producing, in order to learn to combat the actual virus, should it be encountered.



Are you saying this is what the adverse reaction is to? Do you have anything that supports that or are you just 'recalling' it?

It is significant. If its the mRNA its one thing. If its the additives, then its just something that could be encountered in another vaccine, i.e. a risk with any other vaccine in the world.

psychojoe
WA, 1295 posts
7 Jul 2021 8:04AM
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airsail said..

psychojoe said..


airsail said..
Second dose of AZ next week, I must say I'm feeling quite superior and will be happily spreading Covid amongst the antivax community. This if the crap they are sprouting is in any way true




So far as I know it's the Pfizer that contains the spike protein, and the theory is that during viral shedding post vaccination, the protein is shared, which could be plausible for all I know but if it were then countries with high Vax rates would have reached herd immunity by now.



Bugger, I should have got Pfizer then. Oh well, next time, current research is showing mixing Pfizer and AZ gives even better immunity.


Yeah, apparently the mix is best, so why the **** is Aus CHO Paul Kelly saying "Don't mix"

FormulaNova
WA, 12527 posts
7 Jul 2021 8:05AM
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Kamikuza said..

That's the question, isn't it. People are made sick who otherwise would not have gotten sick, and there's the associated risk with it. Remember, the whole eradication strategy is to stop people even getting sick in the first place...



Well, eradication is a short term approach, and long term we need something else to let us integrate with the rest of the world. Do you agree?

If so, then your risk of catching Covid and risk of vaccine problems can then be compared. You cannot compare eradication death rates with vaccination death rates as they are not at the same point. It is like saying that staying inside your house is 100% safe therefore you won't go outside because you could get hit by a bus. At some point you have to go outside. Do you walk on the road or the footpath?

airsail
QLD, 781 posts
7 Jul 2021 10:38AM
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psychojoe said..

airsail said..


psychojoe said..



airsail said..
Second dose of AZ next week, I must say I'm feeling quite superior and will be happily spreading Covid amongst the antivax community. This if the crap they are sprouting is in any way true





So far as I know it's the Pfizer that contains the spike protein, and the theory is that during viral shedding post vaccination, the protein is shared, which could be plausible for all I know but if it were then countries with high Vax rates would have reached herd immunity by now.




Bugger, I should have got Pfizer then. Oh well, next time, current research is showing mixing Pfizer and AZ gives even better immunity.



Yeah, apparently the mix is best, so why the **** is Aus CHO Paul Kelly saying "Don't mix"


Because they don't have enough Pfizer, if they allowed me to get the Pfizer after AZ it would be one less dose of Pfizer for someone else. They have a **** load of AZ, enough for anyone who wants it. When I called my GP for my second dose I heard the receptionist take a deep breath, but when I said it was for AZ it was piss easy, come anytime.

Kamikuza
QLD, 6177 posts
7 Jul 2021 11:51AM
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FormulaNova said..

Kamikuza said..

IIRC it's the immune reaction to the spike protein the vaccine tricks your cells into producing, in order to learn to combat the actual virus, should it be encountered.




Are you saying this is what the adverse reaction is to? Do you have anything that supports that or are you just 'recalling' it?

It is significant. If its the mRNA its one thing. If its the additives, then its just something that could be encountered in another vaccine, i.e. a risk with any other vaccine in the world.


The reaction is being declared as the immune response to the vaccine, you can Google that.

I'm assuming that people who have adverse reactions to vaccines would have the same level of reaction to the disease.

My point again is, we take vaccines to avoid adverse outcomes from the disease, and with most vaccines the risk of adverse reactions is actually miniscule. The risks in those examples are known and the odds are generally considered acceptable.

Can the same thing be said now? I'm not so sure.

Kamikuza
QLD, 6177 posts
7 Jul 2021 12:06PM
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FormulaNova said..
Well, eradication is a short term approach, and long term we need something else to let us integrate with the rest of the world. Do you agree?

If so, then your risk of catching Covid and risk of vaccine problems can then be compared. You cannot compare eradication death rates with vaccination death rates as they are not at the same point. It is like saying that staying inside your house is 100% safe therefore you won't go outside because you could get hit by a bus. At some point you have to go outside. Do you walk on the road or the footpath?


Sure, but now we're ok with putting people at a greater risk of poor health outcomes? After all the banging on about protecting people from illness?

It's curious to me that that argument is now being made in support of vaccination, but was sneered at when used to suggest lockdowns were needlessly oppressive, or we need to open up to get the economy moving.

I think my answer at this time is another question: sure, we can't stay inside forever but is forcing every to take vaccines we don't have long term safety data on actually the best way? This is about public safety, isn't it?

japie
NSW, 6433 posts
7 Jul 2021 1:44PM
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More great data analysis from the team at the UK Column discussing vaccine safety and efficacy.

Strangely there appears to have been a little bit of skulduggery

www.ukcolumn.org/ukcolumn-news/uk-column-news-30th-june-2021

FormulaNova
WA, 12527 posts
7 Jul 2021 11:46AM
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Kamikuza said..
FormulaNova said..
Well, eradication is a short term approach, and long term we need something else to let us integrate with the rest of the world. Do you agree?

If so, then your risk of catching Covid and risk of vaccine problems can then be compared. You cannot compare eradication death rates with vaccination death rates as they are not at the same point. It is like saying that staying inside your house is 100% safe therefore you won't go outside because you could get hit by a bus. At some point you have to go outside. Do you walk on the road or the footpath?


Sure, but now we're ok with putting people at a greater risk of poor health outcomes? After all the banging on about protecting people from illness?

It's curious to me that that argument is now being made in support of vaccination, but was sneered at when used to suggest lockdowns were needlessly oppressive, or we need to open up to get the economy moving.

I think my answer at this time is another question: sure, we can't stay inside forever but is forcing every to take vaccines we don't have long term safety data on actually the best way? This is about public safety, isn't it?


Haven't we reached a point where we know we can protect a lot of people that we couldn't before the vaccines were developed? I think so. We have vaccines, and they do have an inherent risk. Something that we will probably not get away from even if we waited ten years.

How would you get long term safety data on such a large test sample where it would be meaningful compared to the population? I don't think you can.

Right now we have the ability to vaccinate a lot of people that are at medium risk, where the vaccine and the risks are much better than we expect their experience to be if they got Covid. There are still the most vulnerable people that the vaccine will also present a high risk, but then so will Covid. What do you do in this situation? Vaccinate them and monitor them closely?


I think you know that we cannot keep people separated forever, and there are only two ways out of it. Vaccinate or let people catch it. From where I sit the risk of vaccination is lower for most people than getting the disease. If it is not, then let them catch Covid and they then get their immunity.

As a case in point, my parents have taken the vaccine and are in their seventies. I suspect that being vaccinated now gives them a much better chance of survival if they caught Covid. Had they not, for them it could be a death sentence despite them being in good health.

kiterboy
2396 posts
7 Jul 2021 12:34PM
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FormulaNova said..

Kamikuza
QLD, 6177 posts
7 Jul 2021 3:26PM
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FormulaNova said..
Haven't we reached a point where we know we can protect a lot of people that we couldn't before the vaccines were developed? I think so. We have vaccines, and they do have an inherent risk. Something that we will probably not get away from even if we waited ten years.

How would you get long term safety data on such a large test sample where it would be meaningful compared to the population? I don't think you can.

Right now we have the ability to vaccinate a lot of people that are at medium risk, where the vaccine and the risks are much better than we expect their experience to be if they got Covid. There are still the most vulnerable people that the vaccine will also present a high risk, but then so will Covid. What do you do in this situation? Vaccinate them and monitor them closely?


I think you know that we cannot keep people separated forever, and there are only two ways out of it. Vaccinate or let people catch it. From where I sit the risk of vaccination is lower for most people than getting the disease. If it is not, then let them catch Covid and they then get their immunity.

As a case in point, my parents have taken the vaccine and are in their seventies. I suspect that being vaccinated now gives them a much better chance of survival if they caught Covid. Had they not, for them it could be a death sentence despite them being in good health.


Agree to disagree, at this point.

By running long-term studies and compiling data. We have that for many other medicines and vaccines. The reason we don't know is how the vaccine are being pushed through with emergency exemptions.

Of course not. Which is why it's so surprising do many countries followed China's lead into lockdowns.

Good candidates for the vaccine. As the candidates get younger, there's more risk and less reason you vaccinate them.

IanR
NSW, 1150 posts
7 Jul 2021 4:02PM
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Interesting piece from the ABC
The behaviour's are very evident with many on here

www.abc.net.au/news/2021-06-15/why-do-people-buy-into-conspiracy-theories-like-qanon/13388796

How long before this site is known as SeaChan

FormulaNova
WA, 12527 posts
7 Jul 2021 2:36PM
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kiterboy said..
FormulaNova said..



Here we go, the Internet's big non-argument. One day you will come up with an articulate argument for your point of view.

Nah, I was wrong. You won't. You don't seem capable of constructing any argument, just generalizations and then try and pull apart anybody's attempt to understand what you were trying to say.

kiterboy
2396 posts
7 Jul 2021 3:57PM
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FormulaNova said..




psychomub
386 posts
7 Jul 2021 4:23PM
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IanR said..
Really Kami
In NZ there have only been 2758 case of COVID-19 leading to 28 deaths
Your logic is flawed.
Covid 19 has killed about 1 in 100
and Pfizer is killing 1 in 100000
so about 1000 times less deadly

We all know that Covid deaths have been exaggerated. You only need a positive PCR result to be classified as one, even if the virus didn't kill you.

Carantoc
WA, 5519 posts
7 Jul 2021 4:42PM
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psychomub said..
We all know that Covid deaths have been exaggerated. You only need a positive PCR result to be classified as one, even if the virus didn't kill you.


Hey psyco,

Are deaths with vaccine being counted in the same way ?
Are the death statistics for the vaccine being recorded 'as anyone who died within 28 days of taking the jab', just like the covid deaths have been recorded ?

Just askin'

japie
NSW, 6433 posts
7 Jul 2021 7:01PM
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Must have been at least a handful of conspiracy theorists on here last year who predicted that they were going to use coercion to get people vaccinated and restrict the movement of those who aren't??

This is another very insightful article at the UK Column:

www.ukcolumn.org/article/why-we-must-question-vaccine-efficacy-and-safety-claims

airsail
QLD, 781 posts
7 Jul 2021 7:43PM
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japie said..
Must have been at least a handful of conspiracy theorists on here last year who predicted that they were going to use coercion to get people vaccinated and restrict the movement of those who aren't??

This is another very insightful article at the UK Column:

www.ukcolumn.org/article/why-we-must-question-vaccine-efficacy-and-safety-claims


Overall, we rate the UK Column a strong right-wing biased conspiracy website that frequently promotes false or misleading information.

mediabiasfactcheck.com/uk-column/

kiterboy
2396 posts
7 Jul 2021 5:55PM
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Carantoc said..

psychomub said..
We all know that Covid deaths have been exaggerated. You only need a positive PCR result to be classified as one, even if the virus didn't kill you.



Hey psyco,

Are deaths with vaccine being counted in the same way ?
Are the death statistics for the vaccine being recorded 'as anyone who died within 28 days of taking the jab', just like the covid deaths have been recorded ?

Just askin'


Nope.
The blood clots that were caused by the vaccines are a pretty clear case of death.
You don't die 'with' a blood clot, but from it (plural?).

FormulaNova
WA, 12527 posts
7 Jul 2021 6:34PM
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kiterboy said..

FormulaNova said..







Ahh, thanks for puting it up as a caption. Even a conspiracy theorist can understand it now.

Do you really think your opinion matters because its a caption?

Let me know when you are actually capable of presenting an argument instead of quoting random rubbish.

Straw man indeed.

Razzonater
2206 posts
7 Jul 2021 8:34PM
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This thread has been a very good sharing of opinions facts and anecdotes and I thank all for the input.
My current status as a 39 year old person in Western Australia is I still cannot get a booking to get the Pfizer jab.
The message is still don't call us we will get in contact with you on the website so this is third attempt in 3-4 weeks.

I will keep updating on here until one becomes available.

I can see the side of both for and against, and to be honest both sides have valid valid points..

What would be far better for the public of both the for and against teams is cold hard facts were provided ..unbiased and factual reporting numbers and statistics... I just don't think we will see it.

I think all would have to agree their is a lot of artistic creativity being taken dependent on agenda of vaccines that kill numbers and COVID that kills numbers. This shouldn't be a political point scoring game..

I didn't want to get the vaccine and to be honest am getting it for reasons that involve elderly parents and willingness to travel and job reasons..There is a level of manipulation or social pressure being applied to get myself vaccinated, but that can be said also for spending bulk coin on your wedding, having kids and being a functioning member of society.

groucho Marx did however say " I don't want to be part of any club that wants me as a member" and whilst I used to think it was just a funny one liner as I've gotten older it really has a lot of merit.


Anyway can't get vaccine yet, no dates available and none known..

Before every politician keeps banging on about getting the vaccine and just do it and hurry up and get it and be responsible and if you want life to return to normal get it.. Perhaps they should make it available.

Its only once it becomes available and readily available and the government gets this to happen that we can return to some normality.

I don't see this happening for another 12 months at best, I'd like to be proved wrong but doubt I will,,,, even than how many more variants will there be,,,, From current data now it is being suggested 3 or more vaccine doses may be required.. When will the world have enough to provide 3 doses to all?????

FormulaNova
WA, 12527 posts
7 Jul 2021 9:02PM
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Razzonater said..
...
Before every politician keeps banging on about getting the vaccine and just do it and hurry up and get it and be responsible and if you want life to return to normal get it.. Perhaps they should make it available.

Its only once it becomes available and readily available and the government gets this to happen that we can return to some normality.

I don't see this happening for another 12 months at best, I'd like to be proved wrong but doubt I will,,,, even than how many more variants will there be,,,, From current data now it is being suggested 3 or more vaccine doses may be required.. When will the world have enough to provide 3 doses to all?????


I think they really got caught out when the Astrazenica vaccine started having problems and then people's lack of interest in getting it. The Pfizer numbers clearly weren't enough to cover everyone.

It's good to see young people in places are lining up for the AZ vaccine. I can't comment on whether they should do that as I was lucky enough to get the Pfizer version, and this is in no way a comment on people that choose not to get it. It's their choice.

I suspect that volumes of Pfizer will increase pretty quickly, in 3 months, so hopefully you get the chance then. I think like you a lot of people will be getting it to enable travel and also to protect family members.

For what its worth I am up to 6 days after my vaccination and I have noticed no symptoms.

kiterboy
2396 posts
8 Jul 2021 6:50AM
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FormulaNova said..

It's good to see young people in places are lining up for the AZ vaccine. I can't comment on whether they should do that as I was lucky enough to get the Pfizer version...





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Forums > General Discussion   Shooting the breeze...


"Vaccine who has it who hasn't who won't?" started by Razzonater