Forums > General Discussion   Shooting the breeze...

Vaccine who has it who hasn't who won't?

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Created by Razzonater 3 months ago, 25 Jun 2021
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Macroscien
QLD, 6163 posts
5 Jul 2021 9:49AM
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FormulaNova said..


Macroscien said..


FormulaNova said..




Macroscien said..




FormulaNova said..





psychojoe said..






Macroscien said..







Gboots said..
and he subsequently invented mRNA vaccines, which are being used over 20 years later to combat the spread of the coronavirus.








I don't want to carry or spread bad news , but probably we don't need to wait another 20 years to learn about side effects of mRNA vaccine...benefit vs risk balance may not be then such obvious as now proclaimed. For example moderately pulmonary problems vs long term /chronic autoimmune muscle inflammation ( heart including) can be only statistically evaluated in the years to come..

Anyway in this moment in time that is not science vs virus but rather social engineering vs epidemic.Vaccination is promoted not because people are dying but because hospitals are overloaded, and medical system could not cope, quarantine system doesn't work, mask on other protection not applied.Vaccination may sees like panaceum for all those social problems, much easier to apply then proper social engineered structure and structures. My long term vision for healthy society is avoidance of all microbial life entirely. But obviously could be applied only to newly created human colonies in outer space ( outside Earth future colonies -where all humans and animal, plants could be kept completely free of bacteria and viruses.








You'll be making a rather antisocial planet, Macro. Microbe deprived mice lacked social capacity but it became normal after normalisation of the gut microbiome.







Agreed. I think humans need bacteria don't they?






possibly the only bacteria humans needs is mitochondria that is already assimilated into our human genome. All he rest could go finishing.Obviously in other sterile worlds, not here on dirty Earth , when one bacteria is good because protect you from another that is bad.So they do kill each other.By analogy possibly world could be free of armed forces if only nations stop attacking each other. Get rid of police forces when people stop doing violent crimes.






Are you sure about that? I think a simple google search will tell you otherwise. We have evolved with bacteria and we seem to rely on them and some rely solely on us too.





fine, I challenge you now to find a single example where bacteria is needed for human to live,
and we all going to die when this bacteria goes on the strike, doesn't provide us anymore.
Google that !




You are going off on a tangent, but here on earth we live with bacteria. There seems to be an interaction with bacteria and our body that has evolved and allowed us to eat a lot of things that otherwise might be a problem for us.

Sure, I am sure a bacteria free person can live somewhere, fed fluids via a tube and protected from anything in the environment. Sounds wonderful and something we should aspire to.

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3337124/#:~:text=The%20gut%20microbiota%20that%20resides,dysregulation%2C%20leading%20to%20autoimmune%20disorders.



yep, your gut microbiota is essential if your are cow , Formula , by any chance and depend solely on straw diet.
In my opinion humanity future can not depend on continues vaccinations against every possible agent. All people constantly injected with prefabricated something ( because that lead our politicians to imagine what else we could now encode into mRNA compulsory applied to whole human population) . If not even now then soon "binary vaccine" will be created in those secret labs at 5 degree security.
We could esay fabricate mRNA code that do one thing, then completely different when additional second signal is send. For example benign food suplement could activate second part of the mRNA code and instead of producing covid spikes , could do some nasty and lethal. It is not even conspiracy , because this is simply a scientific fact and possibility.

My solution for future will be perfecting our quarantine / isolation system .
Overbuilding simple face mask to whole body protection.
I predict in 5 years from now you will see people travelling in our buses and trams, shopping at malls in full body suit.

One may argue that well design ,well thought and fully protective personal gear will be cheaper and more affordable for nation to apply then complete lock down and travel ban.
BTW. We are still not able to manufacture vaccine that is 100% effective , or even prevent you from being infected,
but for sure we are able to produce suit then is 100 % effective against any biological agent.Such body armor don't need to be continuously worn by whole population. But combined with electronic detection and monitoring intended to prevent spreading from the source or extinguishing focal point. Combined with well thought organized system - it could be much more effective then quarantine hotel, purpose build, locking people.
This is completely new field for our inventors and mass product manufactures to consider.Personal quarantine suits manufactured by Apple, Google, Facebooks and Tesla with all electronic gadgets attached.When the business opportunity meet actual need the financial success is guarantied.

AquaPlow
QLD, 998 posts
5 Jul 2021 9:58AM
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tarquin1 said..
Sorry to talk about the vaccine again. If the Moderna is 5 times stronger. Does that mean its telling your body to make 5 times more spike protein than the Pfizer?


Hmmmm.. hope this helps.. My understanding of the vaccines.. is the instruction set which each packet of proteins which get incorporated into an invaded cell's manufacturing line triggers is finite. With any viral invader the cell manufactures till it dies (which it would do naturally - just not to the beat of the viral invader's timeline - senescence). The next aspect is the tipping point where enough of the alien (so not associated with an uninfected / un COVID jabbed person) proteins get dumped into the blood stream for the immune system to recognise and then mount a defense (rule of thumb - older you are less efficient the process is). The defense has to be at least two-fold so dealing with the immediate threat - neutralising the blood born protein of the viral load and also adding the process to the longer lasting memory cells which provide the long term barrier (immunity) to this particular virus. Effectively incorporating enough of the RNA sequence into the library to act as a reference into the future (a fast mutating but still stable virus like the flu avoids recognition by the previous successful response - so the infection is essential a new unknown one).
The vaccine volume / concentration (2 different things the volume is mostly (like 99+%) a vehicle to suspend the product in) of a particular vaccine has to reach that tipping point (pay dirt) for the majority of the people it is used on to trigger the immune response with minimal or better still no side-effects - the bulk of the current batch do not carry original virus (complete) instruction set / payload - further the design is intended to have no capacity to re-invade cells and become itself infectious.
In testing the various products which have succeeded have met the pay dirt level - the link between volume injected and effectiveness is there but far from direct and not setup for strait up comparative assessment - the efficacy is the standard (at least in the short term).

It will be interesting to see if the research on the AZ blood clotting issue is (at least partially) due to the very rare injection straight into a vein as opposed to muscle.

Cheers
AP
(Dis-claimer - to the best of my knowledge I have not be a politician in a previous life)

Macroscien
QLD, 6163 posts
5 Jul 2021 10:04AM
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AquaPlow said..








It will be interesting to see if the research on the AZ blood clotting issue is (at least partially) due to the very rare injection straight into a vein as opposed to muscle.







Yep , Your GP should you ask you now :
Do you prefer rather have a blood clot ( AstraZeneca) or muscular dystrophy ( Pfizer) and following heart failure?
O irony the preferred and proposed now is take both risks same time !!
The scientific mistake I could see ( in proposed by administration choice ) is such then for effect of second choice - Pfizer_ complication we need to wait longer time and younger people may have more time to develop such complications.

So prescribing to younger mRNA and Astra to older ( prone to die soon naturally ) may not the that wise anyway.


statistically/scientifically we could do following comparison?

what is your chance to get Covid infected x what is your chance to die ( 0.1 % when even infected in first place)

vs.
what is your chance to die due to natural heart failure x multiplied now by super stimulus mRNA that (may) speed up the the process ??

PS.300,000 Australian already suffer some serious heart problems - vs how many covid ? several or hundred ?
www.healthywa.wa.gov.au/Articles/F_I/Heart-failurein US alone 5 mln suffer heart failure and 250,000 of those die regularly annually.www.healthywa.wa.gov.au/Articles/F_I/Heart-failureNow for scientific curiosity come the question: Covid vaccine definitely saves life's of those infected heart sufferers but how it effects those never been exposed to virus?

Gboots
NSW, 1246 posts
5 Jul 2021 10:10AM
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There will hopefully be another non mRNA option soon. Novavax

FormulaNova
WA, 12519 posts
5 Jul 2021 8:25AM
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Macroscien said..
usual Macro stuff.


We are not cows, but we are not simple machines either. There are links to (lack of) bacteria and allergies. There are links to problems with digesting certain foods and lack of certain bacteria.

Your crazy tangents are not going to change this fact.

Where should we all live? Spiral wound bacteria free catamarans?

Carantoc
WA, 5517 posts
5 Jul 2021 8:47AM
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FormulaNova said..
Would you agree that if you show no symptoms from the virus, i.e.no coughing or sneezing, that your chances of passing it on are almost zero?


define "almost zero".

walking down the street, 2m apart, wearing face masks - yep "almost zero".

two person engaged in Sunday mornings lovey-dovey, nope not "almost zero".

Macroscien
QLD, 6163 posts
5 Jul 2021 10:47AM
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FormulaNova said.

I am not a cow,

Are your sure?
Have any prove of that?
from what you are writing I have serious doubts...

you, Formula cross be boundary on every occasion..

( boundary of being polite and reasonable here on SB)

Carantoc
WA, 5517 posts
5 Jul 2021 10:51AM
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Is nobody even in the least bit concerned over how many photos Macro has of cows in questionable positions and poses ?

I dunno, but it seems like there is something more going on than a simple farmer / farmee relationship ?

Macroscien
QLD, 6163 posts
5 Jul 2021 1:01PM
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Carantoc said..
Is nobody even in the least bit concerned over how many photos Macro has of cows in questionable positions and poses ?

I dunno, but it seems like there is something more going on than a simple farmer / farmee relationship ?



You are cow too, Caranny, I am afraid.
An angry cow that haven't been milked for some time already.
You guys ( you and Formula) need a serious milking to release the tension.


Make yourself milking session with Formula and then you could even drink your own milk together.

psychomub
386 posts
5 Jul 2021 12:13PM
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Buster fin said..
According to ABC news this arvo, one in every 529 USAmericans has died from Covid.
They are a big bodied nation, to be fair.

No, they died WITH Covid.

tarquin1
664 posts
5 Jul 2021 12:17PM
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AquaPlow said..

tarquin1 said..
Sorry to talk about the vaccine again. If the Moderna is 5 times stronger. Does that mean its telling your body to make 5 times more spike protein than the Pfizer?



Hmmmm.. hope this helps.. My understanding of the vaccines.. is the instruction set which each packet of proteins which get incorporated into an invaded cell's manufacturing line triggers is finite. With any viral invader the cell manufactures till it dies (which it would do naturally - just not to the beat of the viral invader's timeline - senescence). The next aspect is the tipping point where enough of the alien (so not associated with an uninfected / un COVID jabbed person) proteins get dumped into the blood stream for the immune system to recognise and then mount a defense (rule of thumb - older you are less efficient the process is). The defense has to be at least two-fold so dealing with the immediate threat - neutralising the blood born protein of the viral load and also adding the process to the longer lasting memory cells which provide the long term barrier (immunity) to this particular virus. Effectively incorporating enough of the RNA sequence into the library to act as a reference into the future (a fast mutating but still stable virus like the flu avoids recognition by the previous successful response - so the infection is essential a new unknown one).
The vaccine volume / concentration (2 different things the volume is mostly (like 99+%) a vehicle to suspend the product in) of a particular vaccine has to reach that tipping point (pay dirt) for the majority of the people it is used on to trigger the immune response with minimal or better still no side-effects - the bulk of the current batch do not carry original virus (complete) instruction set / payload - further the design is intended to have no capacity to re-invade cells and become itself infectious.
In testing the various products which have succeeded have met the pay dirt level - the link between volume injected and effectiveness is there but far from direct and not setup for strait up comparative assessment - the efficacy is the standard (at least in the short term).

It will be interesting to see if the research on the AZ blood clotting issue is (at least partially) due to the very rare injection straight into a vein as opposed to muscle.

Cheers
AP
(Dis-claimer - to the best of my knowledge I have not be a politician in a previous life)


Thanks for the reply. I did some brief research and various sites say the same thing about dose. The Moderna is more in volume but not 5 times.
The AZ is still a muscular injection. It doesn't get injected into a vein.
Some interesting stuff going on in the UK with the AZ vaccine. Looks like some don't pass the European standard because they were made in India. Which means your health pass isn't valid in Europe. WTF!!!!

Buster fin
WA, 2389 posts
5 Jul 2021 1:43PM
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psychomub said..

Buster fin said..
According to ABC news this arvo, one in every 529 USAmericans has died from Covid.
They are a big bodied nation, to be fair.


No, they died WITH Covid.


I'll allow that.

FormulaNova
WA, 12519 posts
5 Jul 2021 1:57PM
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Carantoc said..
Is nobody even in the least bit concerned over how many photos Macro has of cows in questionable positions and poses ?

I dunno, but it seems like there is something more going on than a simple farmer / farmee relationship ?


That cow does look like it has had someone photoshopped out of it. Maybe this is Macro's wall of fame at home?

FormulaNova
WA, 12519 posts
5 Jul 2021 2:00PM
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Carantoc said..
FormulaNova said..
Would you agree that if you show no symptoms from the virus, i.e.no coughing or sneezing, that your chances of passing it on are almost zero?


define "almost zero".

walking down the street, 2m apart, wearing face masks - yep "almost zero".

two person engaged in Sunday mornings lovey-dovey, nope not "almost zero".


Well, okay, fluid contact, and close enough to allow droplets is one thing. I guess if the other person is also vaccinated, then its not a big deal.

It somehow makes me feel better that I can get the vaccine for myself (knowing that Macro thinks I will have heart failure or a blood clot) and knowing that I can also pass it onto an anti-vaxxer should someone else pass it to me. I wonder what the contagious period is and whether its enough time to organise an anti-vaxxer protest?

FormulaNova
WA, 12519 posts
5 Jul 2021 2:02PM
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Carantoc said..
FormulaNova said..
Would you agree that if you show no symptoms from the virus, i.e.no coughing or sneezing, that your chances of passing it on are almost zero?


define "almost zero".

walking down the street, 2m apart, wearing face masks - yep "almost zero".

two person engaged in Sunday mornings lovey-dovey, nope not "almost zero".


Moo? Moo, moo, moo, moo?

Macroscien
QLD, 6163 posts
5 Jul 2021 4:03PM
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FormulaNova said..

Carantoc said..
Is nobody even in the least bit concerned over how many photos Macro has of cows in questionable positions and poses ?

I dunno, but it seems like there is something more going on than a simple farmer / farmee relationship ?



That cow does look like it has had someone photoshopped out of it. Maybe this is Macro's wall of fame at home?


It took you some time to come with response.
That is good.You are not like the other cows that jump into bed with hot up conclusions.
You did consider everything carefully.
My little, poor , Formula cow.


This time nothing is photoshoped. It is really Formula cow dinning out!

Macroscien
QLD, 6163 posts
5 Jul 2021 4:12PM
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FormulaNova said..



Carantoc said..
Is nobody even in the least bit concerned over how many photos Macro has of cows in questionable positions and poses ?

I dunno, but it seems like there is something more going on than a simple farmer / farmee relationship ?





That cow does look like it has had someone photoshopped out of it. Maybe this is Macro's wall of fame at home?




BTW.
All animals on my life style farm are steers.
Mean cows with nuts missing ,
More like you and Cranny here.
something else you missing too , but brain transplants will be subject of completely different thread on SB.

Anybody here with advice to Formula where to get BE A vaccine quickly? Never too late till the one neuron left in his empty bucket...
Ps. I hope that your Amoeba, Formula is not infectious and will not jump to others , unprotected participants of SB ..
just in case keep safe distance to the screen Formula, 2 meter at least... people get afraid of you already enough...

KiteWindnSurf
WA, 65 posts
6 Jul 2021 12:35AM
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Macroscien said..

FormulaNova said..




Carantoc said..
Is nobody even in the least bit concerned over how many photos Macro has of cows in questionable positions and poses ?

I dunno, but it seems like there is something more going on than a simple farmer / farmee relationship ?






That cow does look like it has had someone photoshopped out of it. Maybe this is Macro's wall of fame at home?





BTW.
All animals on my life style farm are steers.
Mean cows with nuts missing ,
More like you and Cranny here.
something else you missing too , but brain transplants will be subject of completely different thread on SB.

Anybody here with advice to Formula where to get BE A vaccine quickly? Never too late till the one neuron left in his empty bucket...
Ps. I hope that your Amoeba, Formula is not infectious and will not jump to others , unprotected participants of SB ..
just in case keep safe distance to the screen Formula, 2 meter at least... people get afraid of you already enough...


Is this Wolf Warrior diplomacy?

AquaPlow
QLD, 998 posts
6 Jul 2021 10:23AM
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tarquin1 said..

It will be interesting to see if the research on the AZ blood clotting issue is (at least partially) due to the very rare injection straight into a vein as opposed to muscle.

Cheers
AP
(Dis-claimer - to the best of my knowledge I have not be a politician in a previous life)


The AZ is still a muscular injection. It doesn't get injected into a vein.



Totally agree. The focus of the research I was referring to indicated that the impact on the blood system of having some or all of the dose mistakenly injected into a vein as a likely cause of blood clotting seen in the few patients. I think all vaccine injections are intended as intramuscular. Part of medical training includes the knowledge about pulling back the needle before injecting if there is a risk that the needle might mistakenly have ended in a vein.
Cheers
AP

Carantoc
WA, 5517 posts
6 Jul 2021 8:25AM
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So how does this one work ? :

30 odd people run around a field for 90 minutes for full contact sport grabbing each other, locking heads with others, sweating, panting scrumming together. Probably spitting on each other and hugging each other. Then they all go to the change room together. Sit around talking, de-briefing, showering.

Then they go home and less than half of them go to one location.

$305,000 fine.


For what ? - the exchanging sweat, banging heads together, full contact sport, 30+ people in close contact - nope. For the 12 sitting around a house together.

Now, don't get me wrong. I think anyone who plays league should be locked up anyway. But - this clearly has nothing to do with community health or preventing the spread of Covid.

If we want to return to normality then surely processes that make it illegal for 12 people who just played a full contact sport and hung around together for several hours to then afterwards gather together surely can't be maintained ?

www.abc.net.au/news/2021-07-06/paul-vaughan-why-the-nrl-lopsided-punishment/100269352

Mr Milk
NSW, 2469 posts
6 Jul 2021 10:36AM
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Rules is rules.

Here's another way that parties spread diseases

www.smh.com.au/world/north-america/study-shows-birthday-parties-start-family-covid-clusters-in-us-20210706-p5874t.html

AquaPlow
QLD, 998 posts
6 Jul 2021 10:47AM
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Macroscien said..
what is your chance to get Covid infected x what is your chance to die ( 0.1 % when even infected in first place)

Macro..
At least if not b4 this time next year, regardless of the individual's position on vaccines, the community will be on the front-line with regards to exposure to the various strains of COVID.
As for expressing concerns for injected mRNA .. Current thinking has it that about 8% of a humans genetic library is made up of RNA and DNA from the viral history of themselves and their ancestors (so inherited) Nature's injection. It happens everytime you get and show symptoms of most all viral invaders the COLD and FLU being regulars.
The whole science behind CRISPR CASn and other acronyms for the genetic manipulation we currently are using has come from understanding and then mimicking how bacteria have evolved to defeat viruses.

The pictures U need to be posting when you bait the hook about your desire to life in a bacterial free bubble including in your body (I don't believe U) and survive (RIP)..

Cheers
AP




Kamikuza
QLD, 6176 posts
6 Jul 2021 6:12PM
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So in the news today, NZ is reporting "a handful" of people having serious adverse reactions to the vaccine...

Turns out it's 180 people of the just under 750,000 who've been vaccinated. So that's 24 per 100,000, or just under the case-fatality rate of India (29 per), or 160 times the fatality rate in NZ (0.15 per).

Sure, the vaccine hasn't been fatal ... yet. Just a bit of perspective on the chances of getting really badly sick taking something that's supposed to keep you from ... getting sick.

FormulaNova
WA, 12519 posts
6 Jul 2021 5:39PM
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Kamikuza said..
So in the news today, NZ is reporting "a handful" of people having serious adverse reactions to the vaccine...

Turns out it's 180 people of the just under 750,000 who've been vaccinated. So that's 24 per 100,000, or just under the case-fatality rate of India (29 per), or 160 times the fatality rate in NZ (0.15 per).

Sure, the vaccine hasn't been fatal ... yet. Just a bit of perspective on the chances of getting really badly sick taking something that's supposed to keep you from ... getting sick.


Interesting. How do you separate the people that have reactions to the vaccine from people that might die from having Covid? Its an impossible ask.

I guess the idea is that the vulnerable get the vacccine to try and prevent them from dying if they get Covid, but because they are vulnerable maybe they are more likely to get a reaction?

lotofwind
NSW, 6157 posts
6 Jul 2021 8:50PM
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Kamikuza said..
So in the news today, NZ is reporting "a handful" of people having serious adverse reactions to the vaccine...

Turns out it's 180 people of the just under 750,000 who've been vaccinated. So that's 24 per 100,000, or just under the case-fatality rate of India (29 per), or 160 times the fatality rate in NZ (0.15 per).

Sure, the vaccine hasn't been fatal ... yet. Just a bit of perspective on the chances of getting really badly sick taking something that's supposed to keep you from ... getting sick.


Yeah those above numbers are incorrect,
there isnt that many people left in NZ, they all live here on the dole

IanR
NSW, 1148 posts
6 Jul 2021 11:30PM
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Kamikuza said..
So in the news today, NZ is reporting "a handful" of people having serious adverse reactions to the vaccine...

Turns out it's 180 people of the just under 750,000 who've been vaccinated. So that's 24 per 100,000, or just under the case-fatality rate of India (29 per), or 160 times the fatality rate in NZ (0.15 per).

Sure, the vaccine hasn't been fatal ... yet. Just a bit of perspective on the chances of getting really badly sick taking something that's supposed to keep you from ... getting sick.




Really Kami
Where are you getting your info from?
The NZ Medsafe website is reporting 451 adverse events following immunisation. In the last week.
23 are regard as serious including 2 deaths
Bringing the total of deaths from Pfizer to 8 out of 744 883
so just 1 in 93110

www.medsafe.govt.nz/COVID-19/safety-report-14.asp

Kamikuza
QLD, 6176 posts
6 Jul 2021 11:51PM
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IanR said..
Really Kami
Where are you getting your info from?
The NZ Medsafe website is reporting 451 adverse events following immunisation. In the last week.
23 are regard as serious including 2 deaths
Bringing the total of deaths from Pfizer to 8 out of 744 883
so just over 1 in 100000

www.medsafe.govt.nz/COVID-19/safety-report-14.asp




Saw the news report this morning and googled it. The figure I quoted was "serious" adverse reaction, not deaths. It was the top hit on google:
www.health.govt.nz/our-work/diseases-and-conditions/covid-19-novel-coronavirus/covid-19-vaccines/covid-19-vaccine-side-effects-and-reactions

I didn't actually consider looking for vaccine deaths...

But at that rate of deaths due to vaccine, assuming it holds constant for the whole population, it'll be almost double the number of COVID-related deaths. Cure worse than the disease?

I mean, it is almost exactly the same odds as dying from the thing you're supposed to be protecting yourself against...

Kamikuza
QLD, 6176 posts
6 Jul 2021 11:57PM
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FormulaNova said..
Interesting. How do you separate the people that have reactions to the vaccine from people that might die from having Covid? Its an impossible ask.

I guess the idea is that the vulnerable get the vacccine to try and prevent them from dying if they get Covid, but because they are vulnerable maybe they are more likely to get a reaction?


When you're pursuing an eradication strategy and haven'tmore than a half-dozen deaths in the past year, or 29 in total, then any deaths over that.

Any reaction to a vaccine is your immune system doing what it's supposed to do, which is a good thing. When it goes beyond that, there's something wrong somewhere.

If the rate of deaths is factored into it, where *do* you draw the line and consider that the treatment is doing more harm than good?

FormulaNova
WA, 12519 posts
6 Jul 2021 9:59PM
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Kamikuza said..
IanR said..
Really Kami
Where are you getting your info from?
The NZ Medsafe website is reporting 451 adverse events following immunisation. In the last week.
23 are regard as serious including 2 deaths
Bringing the total of deaths from Pfizer to 8 out of 744 883
so just over 1 in 100000

www.medsafe.govt.nz/COVID-19/safety-report-14.asp




But at that rate of deaths due to vaccine, assuming it holds constant for the whole population, it'll be almost double the number of COVID-related deaths. Cure worse than the disease?


When you look at the detail behind that, they don't actually say the deaths are due to the vaccine. Its not specific either way really, which tells us nothing.

Kamikuza
QLD, 6176 posts
7 Jul 2021 12:01AM
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FormulaNova said..
When you look at the detail behind that, they don't actually say the deaths are due to the vaccine. Its not specific either way really, which tells us nothing.


Which was why *I* never mentioned deaths



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Forums > General Discussion   Shooting the breeze...


"Vaccine who has it who hasn't who won't?" started by Razzonater