Nothing wrong with a good C kite.
Just ask Lenten.

Weren't bows gay until recently?

No, i think its footstraps you are talking about

Q:What is a Naish Sigma Helix kite shape?
A: maybe its a kink kite.
If so that sounds like a match to me with me.

If bows are so bad, given the huge increase in the bow market, why do bow accidents account for only a fraction of the kite deaths out there?

Ask Rick Iossi who keeps a database. Minimal reported deaths with Bows, plenty with C's.

Exactly the point of this thread originally sci.
The loss of good kiting skills to making kites that promote lazy kiting.
I think most of the people who have posted more than twice in this thread need to kite more and nerd it up less.

well a C kite forces the rider to learn to handle the power before they can ride back and forth, a BOW you can ride and learn so slow learners just look like kooks for ages and ages where as with a C they would be swimming. its natural selection

vader said...

all i can say is that if you don`t adapt to change you become extinct.
i learnt on a c kite and then changed to a xbow and the total depower that these kites offer makes the expeariance of kiteing safer and the progression 300% faster which made for much more fun.
isn`t that what is all about?
[/quot

Thanks Vader, nice contribution, some simple truths there!

He brings us back to the truth about why we are in this sport - fun.

The majority of posters agree, there has been no decline in kite flying skills, lets leave it there.

In fact while this thread has been looping along, anyone who flew any style of kite improved their kite flying skills!

Cya and

Goodwinds

Steve

Kitepower Australia said...

simonmm said...
Too true, the lack of direct feel and vaguer steering,

Many bow/hybrid/high depower kites have no pulleys and direct connection, just like a C
Most others just have pulleys in the front bridle and direct connection rears

simonmm said...
the lack of linearity in steering input required depending on kite trim,

Total BS, trim affects bar position only when winds increase enough to require a flyer to adjust the length of the front lines - shorten them - thus allowing the bar to be closer to the rider, steering is the same.
The same occurs on C kites, they just have very little AOA adjustment or wind range = less inherently safe.

simonmm said...
the requirement to try and competently deal with bridle tangles and difficult relaunch positions for the kite,

The same requirements are imposed on a competent C kite flyer, when similar kite tangles can occur.
Many bow/hybrid/high depower kites have no bridles, or minimal bridles that now do not tangle easily or at all.
Many C kites can be difficult to relaunch, even more difficult than most bow/hybrid/high depower kites.

simonmm said...
the increased risks associated with line and bridle tangles

Many bow/hybrid/high depower kites have no bridles, or minimal bridles that now do not tangle easily or at all.

simonmm said...
and the battle against the 100% depower stigma all contribute to the fact that bows ultimately require more skill to fly.

Hang on porno and you are the ones saying the 5th has 100% depower, so who has to live with this terrible stigma wtf???

simonmm said...
Thank goodness that there are still a few good old Cs around for those who just like performance without the requirement for all the complicated skills associated with bows.

Thats quite right, thank goodness there are only a few, that fact alone increases the popularity and dominance of bow/hybrid/high depower kites exponentially, every day!!

Every one of the few diehard brands that still actually make a C kite make almost all their money and focus almost all their R&D on bow/hybrid/high depower kites, why is that????

simonmm said...
By the by, as stated above, if you launch and land unhooked with a C, you definately mitigate one of the greatest safety obstacles in kiting.

Here is one of the biggest lies that these diehard religious C kite evangalists try to pull over newbies eyes. Add to that its just plain dangerous BS, and none of these preachers do it, they are hypocrites in the extreme.

You cannot do this with a modern non 5 line C kitein winds that you would kite in, you will get nailed, lofted or cause an accident.

None of the 5 line C kiters launch unhooked, its a lie.

Some might unhook to land most will not, and not all will always use the 5th line to land every time, they will pull one front line as they steer the kite into the wind.

simonmm said...
Non of this drop the bar, watch the kite jelly fish, invert, tangle then power up for a warp factor 5 ride to Davey Jones locker. Unfortunately, despite all the advanced kite flying skills that bow riders have developed, none of them seem to be able to launch or land unhooked and such a process seems to be limited to those who have solid handling of good old Cs.

Good old C's, hmmm almost an oxymoron that phrase!!!
Why launch and land unhooked when you don't have to, that went out the window with 2 line kites, stop BSing about it.

Cya and

Goodwinds

Steve

For someone who sells kites, you come up with some strange stuff sometimes.

1. What high depower bow kites exist that do not use a bridle or a 5th line?
2. Fly one of your bow kites on a fixed bar. They sit pretty far back in the window and rely heavily on the control system to make the whole thing fly adequately. Most modern Cs have a much better capacity to surge forward in the window under solid edging to spill power. The net result is that with a good C you can rely less on changing of the angle of attack through sheeting and maintain a more consistent feel to the steering of the kite. With every high depower kite I have tried the steering becomes vaguer and less responsive the more the kite hangs off the front lines. Inherrently I guess most riders naturally pull in the bar every time they turn to try and make the kite react more responsively. I find in flukey winds with a bow, working the kite very agessively on a wave tends to leave the kite jerking stocastically around the sky. A C feels much more controlled and predictable. Others may disagree, but this is simply how it feels to me.
3. On my 4 line C I have never had a tangle on the kite end (I have been wrapped in the lines once) that has resulted in the kite being unable to relaunch. I have snapped lines and torn kites in waves. However the kite can get rolled 5 times and it can still relaunch. Maybe I was just unlucky with the bows I owned with bridles getting wrapped around inflation nipples or around the wing tip or the kite wanting to invert. At the end of the day, it seems to me, you would have to be full of horse manure if you honestly believe that a bridle bow is equally prone to tangling as a 4 line C.
4. 5 line kites (or any other kite rigged with a flag line) will have the ability to completely depower dropping the kite onto that single line. Many bow kite advertising campaigns sprout 100% depower by pushing the bar out, which to any bow owner is quite obvious as complete crap. If you have never seen a magazine add claiming 100% depower for one of the prominent bow kites, then you really need to get out more and see what is going on in the industry that you work in.
5. I always launch and land and wander around with my 4 line C kite unhooked. I know many people who do the same. The fact that you say it is impossible to do so completely mystifies me (ie "You cannot do this with a modern non 5 line C kitein winds that you would kite in"). How the hell can you have so little understanding of kiting to imply that something I and many others do daily is completely impossible. I bet you also are one of the uninformed who still think that you have to swim towards the kite to relaunch a 4 line C?

The greatest irony of your bs is that you keep trying to argue that bows are pretty much better at everything. To say that bows have the same performance capability as high end Cs is just crap. If your own experiences don't indicate this, then just look at the PKRA. There has only ever been one event won by a bow rider whilst the the best riders in the world still stick to Cs. The old argument of they use what they are used to just doesn't hold up any more. They ride what enables them to perform best. Further to this, any argument that letting the bar go on a bow is just as safe as dropping the kite onto a 5th is just another load of bunk. Nothing beats the complete safety of a 5th or flag line. I have never seen a kite flagged onto its 5th pulling a rider around a beach. I have seen many bows with bridle tangles pulling riders around who have pushed out the bar to no avail.

The funniest thing is that whilst you have spent all this untold time and literary effort arguing against those that have discussed some of the advantages of modern Cs, you have completely neglected the advantages of modern bows. Kites such as the Slingshot Rev offer an awsome combination of good performance, a great flagging safety system that does offer genuine safety and the convenience of high depower. I have owned a number of bows/hybrids and personally much prefer the way modern Cs fly. However I would not recommend them to the vast majority of riders. The high depower bow/hybrid kites really are just easier to deal with for most people. Bows have opened up kiting to a huge market that was never going to be in to the whole and sometimes brutal process of coming to terms with Cs (although that is not to say that bows don't offer plenty of kitemare opportunities). It is impossible to argue against the popularity and success of bows in the market place. They obviously have many traits that appeal to the majority of riders. However, they don't do everything best and for certain applications and styles other types of kites (foils, arcs, Cs etc) offer better options. You keep saying that you want to keep it real and let people out there know the facts, however some of your facts are just plain wrong.

Just kite and get stoked!!!! And as the Sandman would say "I choose to end this thread NOW!!"

Kitepower Australia said...
The same occurs on C kites, they just have very little AOA adjustment or wind range = less inherently safe.

My '07 C kites have heaps of depower and range. Have you flown a modern 'C'? You state you have (I think). I don't get the same range out of them as a bow kiter does say a 12m bow, but I try to rig the correct size for the conditions. I do find that at my local beach a lot of bow kiters fly kites in the very upper limits of their range because of the depower. This IMO limits their riding due to being so powered and technique suffers. For example, earlier in the week I was powered on an 11 'C' and a friend was powered on a 9 bow (I am 75 kgs and he is 85+ kgs). There was a guy on a 14m hybrid out - why? Maybe it was his only kite, maybe he thought it would help him go big, but he just looked too powered to be comfortable, and when you do this you lose the extra depower these kites offer = loss of safety. The best kiters select a kite size that is appropriate for the conditions (C or Bow).

Kitepower Australia said...
You cannot do this with a modern non 5 line C kitein winds that you would kite in, you will get nailed, lofted or cause an accident.

This comment was to do with unhooking on the beach and is old school thinking where we used to think if you could walk backwards up the beach that you didn't have enough power to go upwind. Kite design refinement has meant that I can unhook on the beach and hold the kite, and still kite powered on the water. Admittedly, I would have some depower strap pulled in on the beach. The comment above sounds like someone using a kite in the upper section of it's wind range.

Kitepower Australia said...
Some might unhook to land most will not, and not all will always use the 5th line to land every time, they will pull one front line as they steer the kite into the wind.

Good old C's, hmmm almost an oxymoron that phrase!!!
Why launch and land unhooked when you don't have to, that went out the window with 2 line kites, stop BSing about it.

I always unhook to land my 5 line C kites. I appreciate assistance landing but can self land these in all conditions. The unhooked technique works for me and is safe if something goes wrong. No BS.

SimonM's comments are spot on. I get newer bow kiters coming up to me on the beach surprised by the range I get out of my C kites. All kites have their applications and I see guys ripping on C's and Bows, but the high depower revolution means people ride more powered than they need to and this IMO means there is less need for them to "fly" the kite - they just sheet in & out to comtrol the power. Also, people progress more when they are flying correct size kites for the conditions.

It should be about having fun, progressing and being safe, not bagging the other style of kite. See you on the water.

Tbaggn said...

Just kite and get stoked!!!! And as the Sandman would say "I choose to end this thread NOW!!"

If this thread was terminated now, then those of us who are stuck in an office an not out kiting would be forced to resort to threads like "Kitesurfing suck, Yoyo is the future!!!!" (although the vid was pretty impressive).

Saffer said...

If bows are so bad, given the huge increase in the bow market, why do bow accidents account for only a fraction of the kite deaths out there?

Ask Rick Iossi who keeps a database. Minimal reported deaths with Bows, plenty with C's.

IMO Because Bow Kites haven't been around as long?

All it is going to take for more accidents/deaths to occur is for people who are looking to get into this sport reading threads like this that keep promoting that newer Kites are easier to learn on (which they are, I am not debating that) and then they are going to think, "hmmmm.... if it is so easy to learn on this kite and if this kite is safer I will spend all my money on this great gear and just learn from a video or the manual that comes with the kite" Then they go out in conditions that they cannot handle................. Doesn't take a rocket scientist to see where this is heading...............

(no offence Saffer)

Saffer said...
Ask Rick Iossi who keeps a database. Minimal reported deaths with Bows, plenty with C's.

Has he cross referenced that with the amount of accidents that are caused by fools that buy $100 kite and don't get lessons.

mytchook- Bow kites have been around long enough (2004/5) that there are some kite boarding coaches that have never used a c-kite.

Back on topic you can learn good kite handling skills on Bows, SLE's, C-Kites and Hybrids. It’s just a matter of how/if a person chooses to progress and how far they take it.

Some people buy DVD's instructional and non-instructional to watch the pros body position or how their trick sequences work, they watch the good kiters on the beach to see how they kite, and/or take lessons so that some one can critique them and give advice. They want to learn new tricks, better body position, or better kite skills so they can kite longer or in more technical surroundings i.e. waves or big waves.

That said there are people that don’t really care too much about all that stuff they just want to go out and have a bash and enjoy themselves, and that’s awesome. People do sports to have fun.

This isn’t a question of are Bow kites killing kite skills this is just the signs of a sport that is growing and attracting a more diverse group of riders that may not always have the same goals.

If you take two people one has fun and one doesn't no matter what style of kite there using or how they look, the guy having fun wins.

Cheers
Chris

cRAZY Canuk said...

..........If you take two people one has fun and one doesn't no matter what style of kite there using or how they look, the guy having fun wins.

Cheers
Chris

I totally agree with you Canuk

Kitepower Australia said...

simonmm said...
Too true, the lack of direct feel and vaguer steering,

Many bow/hybrid/high depower kites have no pulleys and direct connection, just like a C
Most others just have pulleys in the front bridle and direct connection rears

simonmm said...
the lack of linearity in steering input required depending on kite trim,

Total BS, trim affects bar position only when winds increase enough to require a flyer to adjust the length of the front lines - shorten them - thus allowing the bar to be closer to the rider, steering is the same.
The same occurs on C kites, they just have very little AOA adjustment or wind range = less inherently safe.

simonmm said...
the requirement to try and competently deal with bridle tangles and difficult relaunch positions for the kite,

The same requirements are imposed on a competent C kite flyer, when similar kite tangles can occur.
Many bow/hybrid/high depower kites have no bridles, or minimal bridles that now do not tangle easily or at all.
Many C kites can be difficult to relaunch, even more difficult than most bow/hybrid/high depower kites.

simonmm said...
the increased risks associated with line and bridle tangles

Many bow/hybrid/high depower kites have no bridles, or minimal bridles that now do not tangle easily or at all.

simonmm said...
and the battle against the 100% depower stigma all contribute to the fact that bows ultimately require more skill to fly.

Hang on porno and you are the ones saying the 5th has 100% depower, so who has to live with this terrible stigma wtf???

simonmm said...
Thank goodness that there are still a few good old Cs around for those who just like performance without the requirement for all the complicated skills associated with bows.

Thats quite right, thank goodness there are only a few, that fact alone increases the popularity and dominance of bow/hybrid/high depower kites exponentially, every day!!

Every one of the few diehard brands that still actually make a C kite make almost all their money and focus almost all their R&D on bow/hybrid/high depower kites, why is that????

simonmm said...
By the by, as stated above, if you launch and land unhooked with a C, you definately mitigate one of the greatest safety obstacles in kiting.

Here is one of the biggest lies that these diehard religious C kite evangalists try to pull over newbies eyes. Add to that its just plain dangerous BS, and none of these preachers do it, they are hypocrites in the extreme.

You cannot do this with a modern non 5 line C kitein winds that you would kite in, you will get nailed, lofted or cause an accident.

None of the 5 line C kiters launch unhooked, its a lie.

Some might unhook to land most will not, and not all will always use the 5th line to land every time, they will pull one front line as they steer the kite into the wind.

simonmm said...
Non of this drop the bar, watch the kite jelly fish, invert, tangle then power up for a warp factor 5 ride to Davey Jones locker. Unfortunately, despite all the advanced kite flying skills that bow riders have developed, none of them seem to be able to launch or land unhooked and such a process seems to be limited to those who have solid handling of good old Cs.

Good old C's, hmmm almost an oxymoron that phrase!!!
Why launch and land unhooked when you don't have to, that went out the window with 2 line kites, stop BSing about it.

Cya and

Goodwinds

Steve

I love the quote feature