Waveslave, take your negative comments and F*#K OFF! If you're not going to help solve the problem, find somewhere else to kite......

Steve


I cant make it, can you post the minutes of the meeting, numbers attending,advise of any actions coming out of tonights meeting.

thanks

andrew

Yeah,

Hit a nerve reading all his irrelevant and negative posts, amongst the other posts from genuinely concerned kiters trying to work together to stop us ALL being banned - im sure I wasnt the only one thinking it! The meeting tonight was definately a positive, you will hear more soon!

Safe kiting,

Fleery

quote:

---

Originally posted by Uber

Great to see the turnout tonight!!! Lets all make this happen. Formalities need to be sorted out and lets look forward to a great Botany Bay Kitesurfing Association. Nice to see all old faces and meet some new faces.

Any issues you may have please feel free to contact me. Or check out www.nswkba.com.au

Be considerate! Keep the sport safe and enjoyable!

See you on the beach soon,

Cheers, Marcel (NSWKBA Committee)

---

That was quick Uber ..... you must have your laptop in your car ..... hey wait a minute .... YOU must be the GALAH.

Thanks for the beer mate.

cheers
col

Good luck to you guys.

However,(not wanting to appear negative)I don't see what you can achieve. Sounds like a "lose-lose" situation.

Say you get hundreds of kiters to back up your submissions to council,that could really get them worried!

"Hang on,we are not dealing with a half dozen crazed extreme sport fanatics,their could be hundreds of them!This will cause a problem on our beaches!"

Also,what about the AKSA and NSWKA ??

Now you will have the BBKSA.

How many associations will you end up with?

i dont know what a neophi-thingy is

@Galah

Thats another clue, ripped your kite on a sign, hmmm, only know of a few people who have done that, you must be oneof them and menace as well. Don't worry too much about slavey, he has been a great promoter of our cause, except that he does not wear a leash. He helped keep this thread at the top every day though.

@ User

Its not lose/lose at all, especially if we take a co-operative, pro active approach, as has been initiated here in Rockdale Council controlled beaches. Councils are run by members of our community, and in general they are all really nice community minded, social people. This is certainly the case with this Council, and the vast majority of kiters here too, as well as most other beach and water users.
The soon to be formed new Club, will bea fully affiliated club or branch of NSWKBA, which itself is a sub branch of AKSA. Its all good, local clubs protect access in local areas and can deal with issues that might crop up from time to time in a collaborative way with the local authorities before things get out of hand. The way we are doing this is definitely a win/win, and I would encourage all spots that have a high number of kiters to form groups and meet socially to self determine their own issues, in consulatation with authorities if need be. There is no need to live in fear, expect positive outcomes and thats what you will get.

@ North kiter

Kitesurfing has inherent dangers, over promotion of the sport by some people, groups (like the media), is not healthy for the future of our sport. Growth needs to be sustainable, and controlled, we are taking steps to ensure thats what happens in our area. We do not need more rules in our lives, and as you say who will make them and enforce them???
We need, social based groups, that are attractive to be part of, then as people ask to join and become part of the group, the groups aim and objectives can be explained, and adherence encouraged, by mutual agreement, and willingness to be part of the group.

Every spot I have ever been to has its issues, it is surrounded on at least one side by hard land, and we kite on drownable water! Inexperienced people are one cause of problems, but a bigger cause in my opinion is the more experienced rider, who's confidence is often higher than their common sense or skill, who feels compelled to show off close to shore. They have accidents, they gybe or transition without looking, land on other people tangle with other kiters, and injure themselves, all in the name of self promotion and being hardcore, but in reality they lead the worst possible example!!!!!!!!!

Yep Dolls has other stuff, but there are a lot of good people who kite there and help prevent accidents, even more so now!

Dolls is one of the few flat water spots in Sydney with a beach wide enough to launch and land a kite safely, we need to be co-operative with Council and other beach users to minimise risks. People have a right to learn this sport, kiters do not have rights to tell other beach and water users what to do, especially when it involves riding or jumping dangerously close to shore (which is illegal anyway).
IKO, AKSA, NSWKBA, Rockdale Council, NSW Maritime, etc, are all aware that Kitepower teaches there, and Kitepower has a permit to teach there, Kitepower staff are hand picked and responsible, sensible people who will not take unnecessary risks. That permit has taken a lot of work from several people, including myself, to get and maintain. There is considerable expense involved, the Licence is renewed or re-applied for each year, lots more work, each year, would you like to take over?

@Viffer
Something has to be done in your area too, hope someone can see that and help to keep the "young sprogs" from terminating access for kiters there. Good luck!


Cya and

Goodwinds

Steve McCormack

quote:

---

Originally posted by Kitepower Australia
Don't worry too much about slavey, he has been a great promoter of our cause, except that he does not wear a leash. He helped keep this thread at the top every day though.

---

Cheers Steve,
Always here to help your cause.
But allow me to elaborate on the no-leash thing.

Kite leashes in the surf can be life-threatening.
It's just another piece of rope that can choke-off your windpipe in a heavy wipe-out.
It's better to have a grab-loop at finger-tip reach on the bar.
I have double grab-loops.
I won't refer to them as 'oh sh1t handles'.
That's a misnomer.
It's standard procedure for me.
There's no panic.
There's no oh-sh1tting.

So,
In the heat of a heavy wipe-out,
I can flag the kite quickly and not be bodily attached to the kite by a leash.
Just finger-tipped attached to the leashline.
Safer.

But with regards to flatwater kitesurfing (I don't kite flatwater)...
wear a leash and STFU.
But get a custom heavy-duty leash.
The cheap Chinese factory leashes that come standard with kites snap.
I've seen it happen.
At the worst possible moment.

But the important thing that's never mentioned is to renew your chicken-line at the first sign of wear.
They crap-out pretty fast due to poor design and too much kiting.

Kite surfing is a sport for me and one I have a strong passion for - a great way to unwind after the stress of the working week. I have once already turned a sport into a career (learnt my lesson there). The fun dissipates after doing the same thing day in day out, for me anyway.

I am in agreement with the following statement: “We do not need more rules in our lives”. In response to “social based groups”, this negates the aforementioned statement as any social based groups must adhere to rules, and if a new group is formed then new rules are formed and members of that group must obey and enforce these rules too.

What is wrong with NSWKBA? Can a representative from NSWKBA represent our case? And, surely be more reputable than a small new “social group”?

I agree to “the experienced rider who’s confidence is often higher than their common sense or skill”, but caution must be taken as this is a generalisation.

You mentioned a permit and the renewal required every year to teach at Dolls. Is there any rules or restrictions that must be adhered to? Perhaps we could all learn from the rules contained within the permit – should this be transparent to all riders (not the details of your license – I have no interest in this), but kiting or maritime rules stipulated within.

I am definitely not interested in teaching kite surfing and think your shop is doing a great job! Just look at all the good riders that have learnt in Sydney and started at Dolls.

Is someone going to post the minutes from the meeting on Wednesday?

quote:

---

Originally posted by north_kiter


Kite surfing is a sport for me and one I have a strong passion for - a great way to unwind after the stress of the working week. I have once already turned a sport into a career (learnt my lesson there). The fun dissipates after doing the same thing day in day out, for me anyway.

---

Not for me though, so it is not an effort, to help out with the little things that make a big difference to kiters, and other beach users.

quote:

---

Originally posted by north_kiter



I am in agreement with the following statement: “We do not need more rules in our lives”. In response to “social based groups”, this negates the aforementioned statement as any social based groups must adhere to rules, and if a new group is formed then new rules are formed and members of that group must obey and enforce these rules too.

---

The statement about rules is simple, if you write down rules, and then the Authorities become aware of them, then the slightest infringement can come back to bite very hard, so best no to give them ammo.
Guidelines is a milder way of saying the same thing, guidelines reached by consensus within the group, compliance is high and easily encouraged. Group meets wherever they kite, its workable, and not too much work for any one member.

quote:

---

Originally posted by north_kiter



What is wrong with NSWKBA? Can a representative from NSWKBA represent our case? And, surely be more reputable than a small new “social group”?

---

All the reps or office bearers from NSWKBA are volunteers, but I am a member of NSWKBA too, and I felt it was important to do something about an issue that affected lots of kiters. NSWKBA and other State Assocs ot AKSA - if you think there is something wrong, get involved and fix it, personally I think they are doing a great job with their limited time and means.
Why would a new group, instantly have a poor reputation???????

quote:

---

Originally posted by north_kiter



I agree to “the experienced rider who’s confidence is often higher than their common sense or skill”, but caution must be taken as this is a generalisation.

---

True it is a generalisation, but no-one should take risks that jeopardise the access of others to a local spot, regardless of their common sense or skills level!

quote:

---

Originally posted by north_kiter


You mentioned a permit and the renewal required every year to teach at Dolls. Is there any rules or restrictions that must be adhered to? Perhaps we could all learn from the rules contained within the permit – should this be transparent to all riders (not the details of your license – I have no interest in this), but kiting or maritime rules stipulated within.

---

The requirement to renew each year is a hassle when you actually do the same thing each year, but many things concerning a permit holder could change, and it is the Councils and NSW Maritimes responsibility and prerogative to make the request.
It is the responsibility of all users of public lands to know the rules, ignorance is not a defence I've been told. Generally speaking a user must not infringe the rights and free use of the public lands for other members of the public, obviously varying degrees of co-operation and collaboration are required, its called living in a city and sharing the spaces.
Permits and licences to operate activities, commercial or otherwise, on public lands or waterways, is worked out in conjunction with the relevent authorities. A full, comprehensive application must be made, it intricate detail. The authorities assess it and then deny or grant the permit or licence which is always under annual review. Its a thankless task, but one that a responsible, committed person just has to submit to.

quote:

---

Originally posted by north_kiter


I am definitely not interested in teaching kite surfing and think your shop is doing a great job! Just look at all the good riders that have learnt in Sydney and started at Dolls.

Is someone going to post the minutes from the meeting on Wednesday?

---

Thanks. The good riders all talk to each other here, and help each other to improve, thats probably why so many have come from here. The very first kiters in the area set the standard, these include Paul Crawford, Darren Marshall, myself, Ian Rumbell, Rich Stenning, the Kurnell guys, like Rick Storch, Peter, Ian, Jouko, Glen, Aiden, Jeff etc, etc. We all just like to get together and share the stoke!

The minutes, if you could really call them that, were taken by Cliff Curran thankfully, and they will be posted soon.

I told the meeting I am too busy to do much of the day to day tasks, so others will step in, and have volunteered. I've been off the radar a bit because I have a busy shop, its been windy, so its busier, and there is an IKO ITC running right now at the shop, which 2 staff members are attending.

I'll try to post them here this some time soon.

Cya and

Goodwinds

Steve McCormack

quote:

---

Originally posted by north_kiter


"The statement about rules is simple, if you write down rules, and then the Authorities become aware of them, then the slightest infringement can come back to bite very hard, so best no to give them ammo."

Surely the authorities have access to IKO and maritime rules. Therefore they already have the ammo, but are exercising their right not to enforce these rules - yet.

---

They do and are enforcing rules all the time, we don't want to give them more, and they don't want more is the message I got from my talks with them.

quote:

---

Originally posted by north_kiter


"Guidelines is a milder way of saying the same thing, guidelines reached by consensus within the group, compliance is high and easily encouraged. Group meets wherever they kite, its workable, and not too much work for any one member."

In my opinion guidelines leads to misinterpretation depending on who is attempting to enforce them. It needs to be in black and white, or else the said takes on many meanings - similar to a Chinese whisper, starts off as one interpretation and then morphs into another. This leads to individuals forming their own interpretation.

---

It works, co-operation and willingness is key. Maybe some strongly independent individuals don't like this, but you are swimming against the tide if you live in a built up, populous area.
Rules don't always work, I could give lots of examples, of ones that do, and ones that don't, and I've always lived by the first rule, which is that there are ultimately - no rules!
Be responsible for your own actions works for me.

quote:

---

Originally posted by north_kiter



The reason (and I am sure there are others) why I took up kiting is that you do not need other people involved - like wake boarding - need someone else to drive the boat etc. It is an individual sport. It is great to meet people on the beach and chat about the biggest jump or sick move you just did, but ultimately it is an individual sport, like surfing.

---

The vast majority of kiters I've met prefer to kite with other kiters.

quote:

---

Originally posted by north_kiter



Effectively, what we (the theme of this thread) are attempting (form a new group) is what NSWKBA already has in place. They already have an affiliation with AKSA and are a recognised entity, rather than a new group, for example "Dolls Point Kiters Association".

Is this not the reason why people pay a membership to this organisation (NSWKBA) so they speak on behalf of its members and address any concerns its members may face?

---

A new group that can more effectively manage issues at a local level is being formed right now. It is not being formed to challenge NSWKBA/AKSA, quite the opposite actually.
In the beggining there was no AKSA, I started it with a couple of others, then it became obvious State Assocs were needed and were the next logical step, now it is completely obvious that we need local user groups. This occurs in many other sports similar to ours. It works, whats the problem???

quote:

---

Originally posted by north_kiter


"The NSWKBA is a non profit organisation run by NSW volunteers with a love of kiting, with the aim of making kitesurfing more FUN and SAFE in NSW. We are affiliated with the Australian Kite Surfing Association(AKSA). All NSW kiteboarders who are members of AKSA are automatically members of NSWKBA and vice versa." Source: http://www.nswkba.com.au/

I certainly do not want an autocratic group established and attempting to enforce the rules (guidelines). I just want to kite where it is not crowded, nuff said.

Looking forward to reading the minutes.

---

No worries then don't kite at Dolls or in Sydney because it is crowded.
Are you a member of AKSA or one of its State Assocs?
Where do you kite in Australia?

Like I said they are a record of a meeting they are not official minutes and will be posted here in due course.

Cya and

Goodwinds

Steve

quote:

---

Originally posted by Kitepower Australia

A new group that can more effectively manage issues at a local level is being formed right now. It is not being formed to challenge NSWKBA/AKSA, quite the opposite actually.
In the beggining there was no AKSA, I started it with a couple of others, then it became obvious State Assocs were needed and were the next logical step, now it is completely obvious that we need local user groups. This occurs in many other sports similar to ours. It works, whats the problem???

---

No prolem - just wondering if NSWKBA is providing assistance/guidance in relation to this matter or is it out of there jurisdiction? Perhaps other riders around the greater NSW have experienced something similar?

quote:

---

Originally posted by Kitepower Australia
No worries then don't kite at Dolls or in Sydney because it is crowded.

---

Like you and others in Sydney, it is a convenient place and there are not too many other options.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Kitepower Australia
Are you a member of AKSA or one of its State Assocs?

---

No

quote:

---

Originally posted by Kitepower Australia
Where do you kite in Australia?

---

Dolls mainly.

quote:

---

Originally posted by north_kiter

quote:

---

Originally posted by Kitepower Australia

A new group that can more effectively manage issues at a local level is being formed right now. It is not being formed to challenge NSWKBA/AKSA, quite the opposite actually.
In the beggining there was no AKSA, I started it with a couple of others, then it became obvious State Assocs were needed and were the next logical step, now it is completely obvious that we need local user groups. This occurs in many other sports similar to ours. It works, whats the problem???

---

No prolem - just wondering if NSWKBA is providing assistance/guidance in relation to this matter or is it out of there jurisdiction? Perhaps other riders around the greater NSW have experienced something similar?

---

I agree there is no problem, except with a few people who are cynical, or rebellious/selfish, and there are enough of us now to help them change their ways.
Everyone at the meeting was aware that there were 3 committee members from NSWKBA present, and it is entirely within their "jurisdiction". Marcel, Rob and Gavin are extremely helpful and fiendly guys, always willing to help out and act cooperatively.

Perhaps other riders in NSW have experienced something similar to what?

quote:

---

Originally posted by north_kiter

Like you and others in Sydney, it is a convenient place and there are not too many other options.

---

True, so why are you so concerned that we are doing something proactive to maintain access to this great spot, and the entire bay?

quote:

---

Originally posted by Kitepower Australia
Are you a member of AKSA or one of its State Assocs?

---

No

So why are you being so critical of NSWKBA/AKSA and us local's initiatives?
Join up and help fix the "problems" you see!
It does not matter that you are a new Zealander living here temporarily, and by joing you will be covered by the AKSA Public Liability insurance.
Personally I don't see the problems you do, but thats just me.

If you are a regular at Dolls, then please make sure you act like you want to be able to continue to kite there, you are probably well aware now that there are lots of us who will encourage you and help you to do just that.

Cya and

Goodwinds

Steve McCormack

quote:

---

Originally posted by Kitepower Australia
I agree there is no problem, except with a few people who are cynical, or rebellious/selfish, and there are enough of us now to help them change their ways.

---

Well, this is where the anomaly is between us. I believe this makes no sense. IMO, it is not intermediate or advanced kiters who are to blame or are responsible for kiting to be banned at Dolls. I believe a beginner or new comer has just as much chance (if not more than an intermediate or advanced kiter) of getting it banned at Dolls. Without forgetting tourists - someone who doesn’t know what they are doing or local conditions - and the beach is not going to be policed by the newly formed group 24/7, therefore members of the newly formed group will not be able to prevent this.

FYI: I have been taken out by a beginner on more than one occasion at Dolls and I am an advanced kiter.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Kitepower Australia
Perhaps other riders in NSW have experienced something similar to what?

---

Similar in the sense that kiting is threatened to be or is banned in their area.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Kitepower Australia
Everyone at the meeting was aware that there were 3 committee members from NSWKBA present, and it is entirely within their "jurisdiction". Marcel, Rob and Gavin are extremely helpful and fiendly guys, always willing to help out and act cooperatively.

---

I think it is great that NSWKBA is involved. I am sure it will help strengthen our case.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Kitepower Australia
True, so why are you so concerned that we are doing something proactive to maintain access to this great spot, and the entire bay?

---

The only concern I have is people trying to tell me what to do – especially when there is no laws around what they are trying to enforce.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Kitepower Australia
So why are you being so critical of NSWKBA/AKSA and us local's initiatives?

---

I am not being critical of NSWKBA/AKSA at all. That is your perception of my opinion. I think they are great associations and should be fighting for kiting to remain at Dolls and the greater Bontany Bay. Since I was unable to attend the meeting and the minutes have not been posted, I was unaware of their involvement.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Kitepower Australia
Join up and help fix the "problems" you see!

---

I stand by my earlier conviction “Perhaps Dolls is too dangerous for neophytes? Perhaps it should be for intermediate to advanced riders only”. But this threatens the lively hood of your business, and therefore you and I will forever be in disagreement.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Kitepower Australia
It does not matter that you are a new Zealander living here temporarily, and by joing you will be covered by the AKSA Public Liability insurance.

---

I have lived in Sydney for a number of years now, and plan to for many more. Therefore this is a concern for me too, as my sport is being threatened.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Kitepower Australia
Personally I don't see the problems you do, but thats just me.

---

We can agree to disagree then. That is fine. It happens to me in business on a daily basis.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Kitepower Australia
If you are a regular at Dolls, then please make sure you act like you want to be able to continue to kite there, you are probably well aware now that there are lots of us who will encourage you and help you to do just that.

---

That’s the thing. I have always acted in a way where I haven’t threatened the sport at Dolls. I do not jump close to the beach and have not caused or had (touch wood) an accident there. Therefore in my opinion the way I kite shouldn’t have to change at all and believe I am not a threat to getting kiting banned there. It is I just have no trust or confidence in the enforcers. Put a sign up, I will obey the rules, if I object to a rule a will make a submission to the respective party; I am not interested in hearing the rules verbally by people on the beach.

Don’t get me wrong Steve, I am not fighting you or the cause at all, I think it is great you and others are devoting so much time and energy to save the sport for all of us. I just believe the rules need to be made VERY transparent to all at the beach. Then there can be no excuses, for example “I didn’t know the rules”. There is no leeway for excuses.

We can leverage off other kiting locations from around the world, they put up signs at the beach.

I am a man who listens to all opinions and, then and only then can I make an informed educated decision. I will convey my opinion if I feel it is necessary and will provide constructive feedback to the said subject.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Kitepower Australia
North Kiter, you sound like a reasonable person, so why are you so sceptical and suspicious

---

I believe our society is governed or mothered far too much now and it is creeping into my sport! Kiting for me is like a last bastion to release pent up stress from the working week.

The only concern I have is people trying to tell me what to do – especially when there is no laws around what they are trying to enforce.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Kitepower Australia
“I'm absolutely sure that asking for signage will be the beggining of the end”

---

We disagree on more than one thing then. If signage is not an option, would picking up brochures from your shop be an alternative? This would allow me to ascertain in writing, and form my own interpretation of the rules first hand. Also, I could then direct others (foreigners or new comers) to your shop to pick up the guidelines for themselves.

Thanks for the note re minutes/record of the meeting. Again, I look forward to reading them.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Kitepower Australia
Who would police, who is a neophyte?

---

I do not understand the first part of this question, but the second is a beginner. Now, I do not know how you judge ones ability or kite skills so I do not know how to categorise a neophyte. I have seen very experienced kiters doing very stupid things – and they have been very lucky to get away with it, and is definitely inappropriate behaviour (usually showing off in front of mates – too much testosterone perhaps?), but I have also seen MORE scary things by beginners (it is obvious they are beginners – their demeanour gives them away, spot ‘em a mile off.)

quote:

---

Originally posted by Kitepower Australia
If they are not policed all a local disgruntled resident would need to do would be to record the infringement and our goose is cooked.

---

May I ask why local residents are disgruntled? I read your opening comments again and failed to identify a statement that outlined WHY local residents are disgruntled. My interpretation is that other kiters’ are identifying other kiters’ behaviour and finding it unacceptable and voicing their opinion before the council takes action. You are in a better position to comment on this since you are a resident.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Kitepower Australia
People selling used gear need to ensure they are doing it responsibly, doing mate lessons, etc.

---

I believe this is not the correct forum to discuss this and don’t get me started on this I would never stop… A disaster waiting to happen.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Kitepower Australia
They will be able to consult with us if there is an issue rather than resort to a ban, because there is no user group.

---

That’s great. I thought it was the role of NSWKBA, but I must be mistaken. Apologies.

In conclusion, I believe kiting requires a great, I will say it again, a great amount of common sense. And, I have been on this earth for some time now (more than 3 decades) and lived in over 35 countries. A lot of people lack common sense, especially when it comes to Mother Nature. She can be a real b…h when she wants to be! And if she is having a bad day, you don’t want to be attached to a kite, or upwind of a groin, or any inanimate object.

Keep up the good work fighting for Kiting in Botany Bay.