Mask said...

EPPo

You often come back with how many years you have been kiting and how much experience you have. Thats great, but it doesnt mean that everyone else knows nothing about kites.

If the Rebel is so advanced , how come its still mid 2000s 5 line technology, where just about everyone else manages to do the same with 4 lines.
I have no desire for 5 lines in surf. Been there, done that, dog breakfast.

I stand by my comment. The Rebel is a good kite, no doubt, but so is the BWS, and it is a LOT cheaper.

Taking quality, fuctionality, efficiency and price into concern the Rebel would be 5th or 6 th down the list if I was to buy a kite today.

Each to his own. If youve got heaps of cash to blow, by all means get the Rebel.

What do you mean mid 2000 5 line technology? The fifth line is an unsurpassed safety feature which you can not get on 4 lines . Heaps of kites still use 5 lines .

There is a 4 line rebel it's called a fuse ,fairly similar kite if your not game to try a rebel cos it's got 5 lines , give the fuse a go , these are real nice kites.

With north your paying a little more because you got the biggest kitesurfing kite manufacturer behind you ,there's 10+ years of research and development , you got more full time kite designers and engineers than any other company and you got a multinational parent company ie north sails standing behind the product, north not only build the best kite board kites in the world but also the best sailboard sails and yacht racing sails. Your paying for r&d , expertise and the best materials in the world .

Comparing a bws to north is like comparing a Kia to a Mercedes or a BMW !! Yeh they will both get you down to woolies to get the groceries .but the BMW going to do it easier and in style and comfort .

Mask said...

No worries

I guess if i had paid a fortune for a kite that was no better than other much cheaper kites , Id also want to vindicate myself.

Pretty dumb argument, and pretty easy to counter with "If I couldn't afford the more expensive kites I'd also want to vindicate myself."

Is that really where you want to take this argument? Is that the best you could come up with?

BWS is not the first cheap brand, there are plenty of them around. This same crap comes up year after year and its the same crap the Switch people spout every time as well.

Mask said...

Switch.

At least they have worked out how to make an effective kite that only uses 4 lines.

Not bad kites for the price.

North have 4 line kites just for people like you that judge a kite by the number of line rather than how it actually flies. You can buy one when you can afford it.

Saffer said...

Mask said...

EPPo

You often come back with how many years you have been kiting and how much experience you have. Thats great, but it doesnt mean that everyone else knows nothing about kites.













No just you it seems.

Mask said...

Just because I dont want to buy a North?

You guys crack me up..

Nah, I think he's just questioning your sanity, after all, you did respond to the fastest turning kite question with BWS as the answer when most BWS owners would freely admit that its not. That means either you're a BWS pimp and BWS is the answer no matter what the question is, or you haven't tested a whole lot of kites out on the market in which case, the BWS might seem great compared to nothing.

eppo said...

The fifth line is more than a safety feature. It is under tension and is a big reason for its rigidity and direct feel due to the need for no pulleys. Try and fly a rebel without a fifth, you almost can't.

The fuse is a four line rebel and yet it needs to be pumped very hard to fly similar( although it actually is a little different in concept anyhow), heard the new fuses don't need to pumped as hard.

I agree with mask on one thing, I'm not convinced with the fifth line in the surf, things can go wrong, but the fifth plays a big part in the kites performance and it does kill the kite completely when activated ( which has saved the kite once on land and once in the ocean already). A four line is still under tension when the mini fifth is activated and in those two incidents I mentioned would have ripped it apart.

Then again I find it hard to believe a decent rider would drop this kite in the surf, I have ridden as far as I could under this thing, with lines as loose as masks reasoning, and the kites just sits there until you catch up and get tension back on. Surprises me every time.

We do need to be aware of marketing hype still and the cheaper brands and designs keep the top guys like north on their toes and keeps them conscious of price differentials. Think of the best story, they came out cheap as chips, as the quality improved so did price. Now I would consider them a solid middle ( and in some models middle to upper ) range and the price reflects this.

You get what you pay for.

Not true in this instance . You could get the same or better for less.

Agreed, last post on this. Each to their own. Was an interesting discussion though, but yes, time to let this one go.

Well I guess this little subject got a whole lot more feedback than I expected and a whole lot more ancillary arguments. To all, thanks for the comments good and bad. Was interesting to get all of the different opinions and allegiances along the way. I have in fact bought myself a North Rebel 9M kite. Had it for nearly 2 weeks. It looks absolutely fantastic hanging on the wall in my shed just waiting for a day when the wind will actually blow.

Snowy - Over and out

scuzi,
uno momento
it not blow yestarday, no
and the day before yestarday, no
mamma mia

So much energy being spent on brand names, mabe the same energy could go into analysing your own techniques. After you have turned your kite to sit it deeper in the window and initiated your bottom turn theres 2 ways to ride, use your kite to pull you down the line or kill the power and use the wave to do the same thing. To be good in all conditions you have to master both. Subtlety, timing and reading the wave down the line is the key, both when hooked in or unhooking.
Spending more time analysing what your doing with the kite rather than what brand youre on will make you a much better rider. Cross on is probably the hardest wind direction to master.

Noise Vs rebel: The actual thread.
Noise: better suited for unhooking and unstrapped riding on a board more suited to what you actually ride in the surf. They are grunty for their size, have smooth turning and are as fast as they need to be without pulling you off your board through the wind window, excellent drift. If you want to push your riding youll drop you kite a lot and a 4 line kite with a strong canopy will keep you on the water. If you are riding a 5'10 with straps or smaller a rebel would be better suited. Very good construction and the bar is second to none.

Rebel: Very direct handling due to the tensioned 5th line, fast across the wind window and suit strapped riders who arent from a surf background and ride a smaller strapped surfboard who use the power of the kite rather than the wave. Unstrapped you have to massage the turns with the bar pressure to keep from losing your line especially when doing hard bottom turn, the key to any trick.
Rebels dont drift well, they lose all their power and will not behave. Unhooking, terrible. They fall out of the sky when trying to drift and are too fast when you turn the kite. 5th line in surf will end in tears.Canopy construction excellent. Bar and lines ordinary, If you have some twists in your front lines dont expect the 5th line safety to activate.
Apples Vs oranges.

^^^ Good post dave,
I use my 6m noise with my 6'3 epoxy fish that i normally surf on. Much prefer to feel the wave pushing me along than the kite pulling, and smaller surfboards just die in the arse too easily in the perth slop, may as well be on my twin tip if i have to stay powered up the whole time.

Thanks Dave.

Have you ridden other kites? Which are better drifters?

I get the feeling you quite like the Rebel Eppo, not sure what gives me that idea

I have only had couple of flys of the BWS and haven't tried the latest Rebel (will have to hit you up sometime Walks) but from what I have heard, seen and read I think Dave's assessment is pretty good.

From an outsider that is quite happy flying another brand I reckon if I was going for an all rounder I would go the Rebel but if I was going for a true wave riding kite I would go the BWS but then again as I said earlier I haven't tried the latest Rebel so what would I know.......yep gotta put it on my to try list.

eppo said...

Fair summation dave, I agree with what you have said from my time on these two kites, except the rebel drifts better than you have made out - having had one for a year now. I cannot seem to drop this out of the sky, more so the 2012 than the 2011. But i agree with the basic concept of drift potential.

If you never drop your kite in the surf you aint charging hard enough, regardless of kite.

I thought you had had your final say on this subject?

Mask said...

eppo said...

Fair summation dave, I agree with what you have said from my time on these two kites, except the rebel drifts better than you have made out - having had one for a year now. I cannot seem to drop this out of the sky, more so the 2012 than the 2011. But i agree with the basic concept of drift potential.

If you never drop your kite in the surf you aint charging hard enough, regardless of kite.

I thought you had had your final say on this subject?

Again been doing it a fair while Mask! Also there may be some truth in what you say. I'm not in my late twenties anymore, the body only allows a certain amount of punishment now. I tend to keep my speed always under control, through the use of the CB wave - when I was riding strapless on a SB this was much harder. Also I tend to aim for a more 'flowing' controlled style rather than cutting the wave to pieces (which I do enjoy watching). That is a function of chosen style and knowing my bodies capabilities. So yes there is truth in what you say.

I also make sure my cutbacks/jibes back onto the face of the wave are very tight. The only time the kite has touched the water is when I have done downloops into the face of a bigger wave (5-6ft) and lost control of speed. The rebel flies and turns with slack lines due to its direct feel, so as long as you 'catch the kite up', through tight manouveres, it is okay.

You also have to control speed on the rebel because it can pull you off the face - technique like any kite. But as far as the BWS and REO are concerned, they will always drift better.

But you turn back out to sea after a wave and watch this baby boost...

Yes I like the kite, but I seem to have more experience on it than you do the BWS mask, which makes me wonder why we have been having this conversation at all.