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Speed Loop again... but this time it's for real :) !

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Created by Manuel7 > 9 months ago, 8 Jun 2017
Manuel7
426 posts
18 Nov 2018 1:04PM
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My hand is about 10 cm from the clip, feels really good there. So far I'm liking the rotation angle.

It seems that the more forward (in the direction of travel) the more horizontal the rotation and the more humane it feels. At least for me.

So when at the beginning we are shy about offering the rig, the rotation is more vertical and slower. Can lead to big back slaps especially when starting things off a bit back or slow.

Now working on getting more consistent landings. I'm almost forgetting about the pop and aggressively throwing the rig as far forward as possible and rotating my shoulders/back to the side. This feels the least scary of all and I'm hoping to apply this technique on my weak side.

Been getting really fast rotations and landings feel a bit harsh for my liking :D ! So need to move my hands and try slowing things down once the board comes around.

What a quest seriously, fascinating!

Manuel7
426 posts
17 Dec 2018 2:31AM
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Latest forwards... rear knee gets sore, although after the last session, it's better for some reason. I'm getting too many side slaps, so I'm trying to stay more tucked as you can see along these attempts.

It looks like my arms/body moves from back on the boom to forward, maybe too early? It happens so fast.

mathew
QLD, 1827 posts
17 Dec 2018 12:46PM
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Manuel7 said..
Latest forwards... rear knee gets sore, although after the last session, it's better for some reason. I'm getting too many side slaps, so I'm trying to stay more tucked as you can see along these attempts.

It looks like my arms/body moves from back on the boom to forward, maybe too early? It happens so fast.


You are moving your hand back, and tucking. Now you just need to not lean back - you need to bring your body weight inboard.

Manuel7
426 posts
17 Dec 2018 2:43PM
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Yes, I think I was holding back and possibly twice. One, the pop needs to happen with a straight front arm to release sail pressure. Two, the body needs to roll around the boom for max rotation or at least have that rear arm sheeted in until the board is pointing back forward.

It's really nice to have a few days in a row to work on a move! It's been blowing more consistently.

Manawa
93 posts
19 Dec 2018 12:41AM
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Manuel7 said..
Latest forwards... rear knee gets sore, although after the last session, it's better for some reason. I'm getting too many side slaps, so I'm trying to stay more tucked as you can see along these attempts.

It looks like my arms/body moves from back on the boom to forward, maybe too early? It happens so fast.



My limit is at 0.12 in your latest video; I don't understand how to rotate with my body. or I lost my back foot , generally I felt also too pressure in my sail.
ps.
big congrats great job

Manuel7
426 posts
20 Dec 2018 3:28AM
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Perfect, I'm glad it was relevant. My front arm isn't straight at the pop. The rear arm shouldn't pull yet but the front arm needs to be extended, otherwise, the board isn't fully released. Then once the pop (preferably downwind) happens then we pull the rear hand to us and tuck keeping the front arm straight.

My pop is good but my sail handling isn't and honestly even though I tried, I just knew in my head that I didn't want to go with the board. I'm going to focus on only one thing to straighten the front arm at take-off for the next sessions.

If you are feeling too much pressure (so am I often) then bear off maybe more or wait! Or try and open the sail more. The thing is we need the pressure. I think I'm still popping and throwing, while the pop and throw should happen at the same time. It's the pull in with the rear hand that happens after.

So, pop sending the front arm straight forward, then pull in hard with back hand.

Manawa
93 posts
20 Dec 2018 5:44PM
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Manuel7 said..
Perfect, I'm glad it was relevant. My front arm isn't straight at the pop. The rear arm shouldn't pull yet but the front arm needs to be extended, otherwise, the board isn't fully released. Then once the pop (preferably downwind) happens then we pull the rear hand to us and tuck keeping the front arm straight.

My pop is good but my sail handling isn't and honestly even though I tried, I just knew in my head that I didn't want to go with the board. I'm going to focus on only one thing to straighten the front arm at take-off for the next sessions.

If you are feeling too much pressure (so am I often) then bear off maybe more or wait! Or try and open the sail more. The thing is we need the pressure. I think I'm still popping and throwing, while the pop and throw should happen at the same time. It's the pull in with the rear hand that happens after.

So, pop sending the front arm straight forward, then pull in hard with back hand.


Thanks for your tips, much appreciated, now is winter, is difficult for me doing windsurfing, I am training in skis, but as soon as possible I will try again, can you write a checklist memorizing it could be useful doing windsurf, or a moment before entering the sea.
Thanks in advance

Manuel7
426 posts
21 Dec 2018 8:58AM
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That's it, I finally got it. Conditions a bit hardcore with crazy water state 16-27 knots, strong waves.

First attempt, leant forward, held then sheeted in, wooosh, pow, landed. I landed most of my attempts, zero worries, zero issues. Only one it felt like I spun too much downwind but I don't think it's over rotation.

The secret was to hold on sheeting in until farther forward. That's why I had trouble using a larger sail. Now no problem.

It feels like I don't need speed, ramp or even take off at all, all I need is lean forward with the sail open until there's zero pressure in the sail and on the mast foot. Then I sheet in and woosh :) !

I feel like it's important to stay tucked so legs can absorb the impact at landing especially if the board rotates some.

Happiest man in the world :) !

Ooooh, I landed a small backloop and was close on 2 huge ones (sail ripped out of hands).

Will post video soon. Should be a good one!

As far as the checklist is concerned I'd say go forward as much as possible without sheeting in, when the sail and board feel really light, sheet in and hold on!

Manuel7
426 posts
22 Dec 2018 11:54AM
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Manuel7
426 posts
5 Jan 2019 11:19PM
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Landed 5 yesterday out of 6 or 7. Feeling so stoked! Can't believe it. It's so hardcore even landing then. Backloops are so much smoother with soft landings.

One finding is that leaning towards the wind upon takeoff, it may be easier for very flat water, low speeds or first attempts but the board lands at an angle. It feels a bit more natural to stay more upright reaching as far forward as possible with the front hand before sheeting in.

The other day. I tried some upwind speed loops or at least thought they were upwind! Basically, needed to steer board downwind in the air, then threw the sail and... waited, the rotation seemed delayed and slow! I think it matches comments above. Not as explosive as attempts farther away from the wind. They felt like they need more initial speed and more wind.

I also ran into this video. It has new school, old school, and just cool loops. It has late and lame ones. Nice to relax Smile

Manuel7
426 posts
8 May 2019 11:25AM
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Hello loopers, wow what a quest. Now that the loop is understood, conf:



I've been trying to plane out of them... wow how insanely hard is it! Despite full speed, strong winds and waves, I still wasn't able to land on the board even!

But the good news is that I understood why, I need to tuck my back leg under. So first, speed up, wait for gust with ramp, bring sail across, pop, throw everything forward, then wait (weird stage), then pull and tuck.

When back forward then hope all of the effort lead to a not as wet landing!

Wow, just wow... then how much does it take to go around twice!!??

Should have some good footage from yesterday. Spot has been on fire for a month. Huge progress, feels amazing!

Manuel7
426 posts
18 May 2019 9:07AM
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My wife finally captured a speed loop from the beach. I was a little spent after two hours playing in the waves (seen in the background) but at least I got one!

www.instagram.com/p/BxklI7iFFIL/

Stuthepirate
SA, 3557 posts
18 May 2019 8:29PM
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Manuel7 said..
Hello loopers, wow what a quest. Now that the loop is understood,


But the good news is that I understood why, I need to tuck my back leg under. So first, speed up, wait for gust with ramp, bring sail across, pop, throw everything forward, then wait (weird stage), then pull and tuck.




The graceful art of listening to advice




NotWal
QLD, 7425 posts
22 May 2019 2:27PM
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ozpricey said..
Good stuff! Your technique looks good.

You shifted your hand back a little but it needs to be right back near the boom cleat to get the whip to land them dry. Tonky does good ones, look at his videos for guidance.



Not a bump in sight. Who needs chop when you can pop like that.

Manuel7
426 posts
1 Jun 2019 9:00AM
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Latest findings... The pop is a one foot jump, it's the easiest to free up the board and set up for tucking the back leg under which facilitates the rotation preventing back slaps. I felt like the angle needed to send the mast towards is similar to the one used to place the board for backloops (let's say close reach, it's more of an apparent wind thing). Our body follows the same angle.

The back hand adjusts the sail trim to slide the sail across without upsetting the pop. It must be sheeted out. Once the front arm is fully extended, we look back as if we wish not to look and it's over! When straightening the front arm, we must also lean forward with our body. The more forward we lean, the less it hurts. Keep in mind to lift the front leg up to smooth out the rotation.

Now that the technique is well sorted out, is time to go on port tack! So far I have 1 attempt, well that's better than 0 :D !

Manuel7
426 posts
21 Aug 2019 11:53PM
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With 99% success landing on starboard, been working on port tack. The will is here, I got some rotation on one attempt but most are still jump-less. I found it safer to pop with body upwind so that when I get ripped out of the straps it happens sideways as opposed to over. I need to hold on sheeting in until I'm well forward and find a way to slide the sail across before power comes in.

This is the technique I'm using basically:

VAILIYATBEN
23 posts
25 Sep 2019 1:40AM
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Manuel7 said..
Thanks for the awesome feedback! Much appreciated :)

Yes my boom is super low because I believe I rake the sail back, especially on my jumping side.
My front arm is bent as I'm choking the rig to avoid the rotation!
So today I worked on bringing the sail forward and my body more upright, this helped get a nice pull but I didn't trust it :D !
Anyway, a bit better, got some nice ah ha moments but the conditions weren't quite there. Gusty with lots of current and few waves.
I think I'm going to try to bring my freewave out too, just to get a better pop.
If I can commit the forward motion with the climbing of a piece of swell... should be pretty close to starting to rotate.


For the past few days, I've been trying them and cannot stop myself from trying them during my sessions.

Manuel7
426 posts
25 Sep 2019 11:23AM
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Head downwind until you can go 100%! You want to commit as much as possible. Downwind course is more forgiving. What are your current end results?

I'm getting near waterstarts on port now. That's goal #1, rotate until you can waterstart quickly then #2 keep the board under you :)

Manuel7
426 posts
9 Oct 2019 11:21AM
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Ah ha, I got it 100% now. Trick was to hold on sheeting in until almost forever!

Process is

1. Steer the board downwind over a small ramp
2. Reach as far ahead as possible with front hand keeping the sail powerless
3. With a bent front leg, the board lifts up by itself
4. We start spinning sideways and backwards, then we can pull our gear around us

It's much easier to control the rotation this way. We decide to bring our gear around vs our gear pulling us forward. It's also much less scary and we can do it at slower with no real need to jump per se.

On port, I'm still a little slow and working out timing issue between downwind steer and sail throw. However, I'm no longer hesitating on bothered by the odd event.

It feels really weird leaping with an empty sail and hold like this but it makes complete sense.

So stoked, I hope it encourages some of you!

Ken767
WA, 61 posts
9 Oct 2019 11:52AM
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Manuel7 said..
Ah ha, I got it 100% now. Trick was to hold on sheeting in until almost forever!

Process is

1. Steer the board downwind over a small ramp
2. Reach as far ahead as possible with front hand keeping the sail powerless
3. With a bent front leg, the board lifts up by itself
4. We start spinning sideways and backwards, then we can pull our gear around us

It's much easier to control the rotation this way. We decide to bring our gear around vs our gear pulling us forward. It's also much less scary and we can do it at slower with no real need to jump per se.

On port, I'm still a little slow and working out timing issue between downwind steer and sail throw. However, I'm no longer hesitating on bothered by the odd event.

It feels really weird leaping with an empty sail and hold like this but it makes complete sense.

So stoked, I hope it encourages some of you!


Can we see some vids of your progress Manuel?

Sea Lotus
128 posts
9 Oct 2019 2:16PM
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Congratulations on nailing the forwards Manu!, you must be over the clouds now and can't wait for the next session.

Forward loop will be my ultimate goal once i pass my rookie phase and watching your youtube videos gives me inspiration, keep them coming please :)

Manuel7
426 posts
10 Oct 2019 3:16PM
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Will definitely have something soon with more slow motion. Hopefully I can waterstart out of a port tack one soon!

Yes I'm definitely happy and throw them even when the conditions are challenging.

Basically, I'm validating the remko method with emphasis on sending the sail forward while keeping it powerless. This is what keeps the rear elbow flared out.

This example is very horizontal, you can see the jibing aspect and backwards rotation. Holding sheeting in makes it safer when the pop is odd too and keeps the mast farther away when bailing.

Manuel7
426 posts
13 Jan 2020 8:36AM
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First overpowered forwards landed. Eeesh, it pulls hard! We can really feel the pull of the sail and where the center of effort is.

I did have a pretty bad fail beforehand where I believe I pulled too early while not downwind enough. Front flipped rapidly and landed on a thankfully partially sunk mast. Ouch!

Anyway, on Port, it's still very crappy. Yet, I am well aware of what I need to do... Ramps lack on this side, prefer to have something to lean against.

Ken767
WA, 61 posts
16 Jan 2020 10:56PM
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Derek has some good examples

Dean
WA, 25 posts
18 Jan 2020 7:35PM
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Got my first forwards today after 20+ years of sailing. Reading through this blog really gave me the motivation to do some proper attempts.

I had tried here and there probably a few each season for at least the last 15 years. Problem was I couldn't really understand exactly what I needed to do and how to coordinate it such a short amount of time. Reading through the tips here and watching the videos really allowed me to understand and feel the move before trying.

First few attempts I managed to rotate nearly all the way around but lost the board just before impact. That gave me the confidence that I was doing it right but just had to commit to tucking and not pulling my feet out. 30+ attempts, most rotated at least to my back with the gear close enough for a quick waterstart. Then five I'd really claim as good managing to water start without taking my feet out of the footsteps.

I think I'll have to dedicate the next few sessions on the water to locking in the muscle memory.

A big factor in reducing my normal fear was to watching so many of manuels attempts and understanding the likelihood of injury was little as long as you get over and Infront of your gear.
Anyway I'm totally stoked. Thanks for being the inspiration manuel hopefully more people are inspired to have a go!

Ken767
WA, 61 posts
20 Jan 2020 10:10AM
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Dean said..
Got my first forwards today after 20+ years of sailing. Reading through this blog really gave me the motivation to do some proper attempts.

I had tried here and there probably a few each season for at least the last 15 years. Problem was I couldn't really understand exactly what I needed to do and how to coordinate it such a short amount of time. Reading through the tips here and watching the videos really allowed me to understand and feel the move before trying.

First few attempts I managed to rotate nearly all the way around but lost the board just before impact. That gave me the confidence that I was doing it right but just had to commit to tucking and not pulling my feet out. 30+ attempts, most rotated at least to my back with the gear close enough for a quick waterstart. Then five I'd really claim as good managing to water start without taking my feet out of the footsteps.

I think I'll have to dedicate the next few sessions on the water to locking in the muscle memory.

A big factor in reducing my normal fear was to watching so many of manuels attempts and understanding the likelihood of injury was little as long as you get over and Infront of your gear.
Anyway I'm totally stoked. Thanks for being the inspiration manuel hopefully more people are inspired to have a go!


Congrats Dean. Do you have a gopro?

Dean
WA, 25 posts
20 Jan 2020 10:25PM
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Ken29 said..

Dean said..
Got my first forwards today after 20+ years of sailing. Reading through this blog really gave me the motivation to do some proper attempts.

I had tried here and there probably a few each season for at least the last 15 years. Problem was I couldn't really understand exactly what I needed to do and how to coordinate it such a short amount of time. Reading through the tips here and watching the videos really allowed me to understand and feel the move before trying.

First few attempts I managed to rotate nearly all the way around but lost the board just before impact. That gave me the confidence that I was doing it right but just had to commit to tucking and not pulling my feet out. 30+ attempts, most rotated at least to my back with the gear close enough for a quick waterstart. Then five I'd really claim as good managing to water start without taking my feet out of the footsteps.

I think I'll have to dedicate the next few sessions on the water to locking in the muscle memory.

A big factor in reducing my normal fear was to watching so many of manuels attempts and understanding the likelihood of injury was little as long as you get over and Infront of your gear.
Anyway I'm totally stoked. Thanks for being the inspiration manuel hopefully more people are inspired to have a go!



Congrats Dean. Do you have a gopro?


Nah but would help me work out what I'm doing when they go right.

Manuel7
426 posts
21 Jan 2020 10:05AM
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That's so awesome to read, congrats! Heading downwind makes it much safer than anything else. Try them fresh, a few each time is enough. Both sides for good measure :) !

It looks like I might learn wymaroos before speed loops on port though :D ! Maybe it happened to others?

Dean
WA, 25 posts
22 Jan 2020 7:46PM
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This is a useful vid, the concept of being more upright when initiating I think I was missing. My second session had too many back slaps so I think this is what I was doing

Manuel7
426 posts
23 Jan 2020 3:01AM
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Yes back slaps and top of the sail hitting the water means lack of height (for the style of loop), pop over back foot with weight back (hurts forward speed), and possibly sheeting in too early (mast not enough into the wind or forward enough). Possible also board too much into the wind.



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"Speed Loop again... but this time it's for real :) !" started by Manuel7