Forums > Windsurfing Wave sailing

Speed Loop again... but this time it's for real :) !

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Created by Manuel7 > 9 months ago, 8 Jun 2017
geared4knots
TAS, 2494 posts
16 Jun 2017 10:29PM
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Honestly I am 50 and learnt on both tacks with Gem hall technical video s..
Yout videos show your mistakes in technique. Look, listen and learn from experts and you will quickly get it.


Best advice is get it done and then.post us a video.
You are really close!!!!

geared4knots
TAS, 2494 posts
16 Jun 2017 10:29PM
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Honestly I am 50 and learnt on both tacks with Gem hall technical video s.
None of this social media with some giving advice who may not be experts???
Best advice is get it done and then.post us a video.
You are really close!!!!, in my opinion anyway

Manuel7
268 posts
16 Jun 2017 9:36PM
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For sure, I wish it was as easy as "do it right" and you'll "do it right" kinda thing!
I guess getting rotation must still be part of the trial hurdle.
Anyway, more tries today, will do my best to try different things and maybe come up with something with a bit of luck too!

Manuel7
268 posts
17 Jun 2017 9:10AM
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At 1:55 and 2:28 here



we can see the not so scary loop. The sail is brought forward and across before the board is airborne.

Once in the air then the rider just needs to hang on and tuck legs under. Beautiful as the mast doesn't appear to be headed straight to the water.

geared4knots
TAS, 2494 posts
17 Jun 2017 12:20PM
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This is like the Wymaroo method.
I reckon this is a safe way to learn them

windaddict
VIC, 1099 posts
17 Jun 2017 5:21PM
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This is one of my early attempts at looping. I pretty much do everything wrong, don't bear off, don't sheet in hard enough, don't move my hands back etc etc....However, I let my weight go forward and over the board, land on the nose and hang on for my life. While it is ugly, I still managed to water start away from it.

&feature=youtu.be

Manuel7
268 posts
17 Jun 2017 4:07PM
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Select to expand quote
windaddict said..
This is one of my early attempts at looping. I pretty much do everything wrong, don't bear off, don't sheet in hard enough, don't move my hands back etc etc....However, I let my weight go forward and over the board, land on the nose and hang on for my life. While it is ugly, I still managed to water start away from it.

&feature=youtu.be


Impressive ! The bull loop

Manuel7
268 posts
18 Jun 2017 11:36AM
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28 front attempts, last session, 2 hours, a bit more comfortable not as slappy, but nothing that looked like a front.

Tomorrow's only focus... punch front hand, everything else seems fine.







Manuel7
268 posts
19 Jun 2017 12:12PM
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Al-most !!! Man can't believe it didn't happen today...
Note the board angle with the wave.



Stuthepirate
SA, 3499 posts
19 Jun 2017 4:49PM
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Nice work Manuel.
IMO it looks as though you still need to extend your front arm out more to the side of your body at shoulder lever or higher and bring your back hand in and up near your forehead
I could be totally wrong though as my forwards are sucky.

Roy
VIC, 88 posts
19 Jun 2017 9:58PM
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Stuthepirate said..
Nice work Manuel.
IMO it looks as though you still need to extend your front arm out more to the side of your body at shoulder lever or higher and bring your back hand in and up near your forehead
I could be totally wrong though as my forwards are sucky.


Agreed, you front arm is quite bent in those photos. Perhaps this video will help (look at the front arm at at 4:05 min) also has some good practice tips. But my forwards are also sucky

Manuel7
268 posts
19 Jun 2017 9:33PM
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First off, thanks all for reading my posts and looking at photos that mostly look all the same. You are probably tired of me doing the same thing but keep answering and providing me insight. It helps push me and work to get progress. You have been an amazing support! I also do it to motivate people who may be watching. We all need to find our own way to get to throw them while minimizing the risk of injury.

--------

Absolutely. I notice that I extend my front arm and then retract it. Darn...
I think I need to extend both arms first at the pop and then pull on the back arm only upon takeoff, something like that.
When I concentrate on extending my front arm, I immediately get more straight and above my board.
Maybe today? Argh...

Roy
VIC, 88 posts
20 Jun 2017 6:55AM
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Manuel, don't mis read my earlier post. We are totally behind you and we all know the frustration of windsurfing...but that why its fun to learn. Good luck again today!

Manuel7
268 posts
20 Jun 2017 9:22AM
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39 knots... no try today, was just too tired and not in the mood to throw myself around or about.
Sooo.... made this video of the last best 3 attempts.

Vince68
WA, 651 posts
20 Jun 2017 11:15AM
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Keep at it Manuel I'm watching this process with great anticipation I and i think most of the seabreeze windsurf forum members here really want to see you succeed

What you are doing is my goal for this year although i doubt i'll pull one off

Stuthepirate
SA, 3499 posts
20 Jun 2017 1:26PM
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Vince68 said..
What you are doing is my goal for this year although i doubt i'll pull one off


Commit Commit Commit

Manuel7
268 posts
20 Jun 2017 12:27PM
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Find a way to do something that gets close and without being too hard on yourself. I think wymaroos helped me but might have taught me a poor technique. Whatever it takes to try them!

Vince68
WA, 651 posts
20 Jun 2017 12:55PM
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Cheers, im am training now (fitness) and my commitment is there Stu but Manuel this thread is about you and your "forward" journey. Our our focus is on you...and supporting were we can

Manuel7
268 posts
20 Jun 2017 9:31PM
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Thanks mates. May I know what makes you say that your forwards are sucky?
So long as they are waterstarted away on a regular basis, they can't be that bad!
It does take a lifetime of style tweaking thereafter from what I heard.

Stuthepirate
SA, 3499 posts
21 Jun 2017 9:53AM
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Manuel7 said..
Thanks mates. May I know what makes you say that your forwards are sucky?
So long as they are waterstarted away on a regular basis, they can't be that bad!
It does take a lifetime of style tweaking thereafter from what I heard.



Personally, I'm getting the board "pop" and rig rotation technique down ok, I can get through a full rotation, land wet and water start after the completion of the move. It's just the commitment side of this once the forward rotation starts. After a couple of big crashes, the feeling of catapult creeps in as i start my rotation. It's a mental thing which makes me hesitate and stuff the move up.
Keep the pics and journal coming. It's great to see.

Snarky
WA, 9 posts
21 Jun 2017 1:19PM
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Vince68 said..
Keep at it Manuel I'm watching this process with great anticipation I and i think most of the seabreeze windsurf forum members here really want to see you succeed

What you are doing is my goal for this year although i doubt i'll pull one off


In my experience getting the location right is a big help. It is much easier to learn if there are some small ramps (even white water) that don't require effort to get air going downwind. I pretty much learnt to forward in two days in Coronations after quite a few seasons trying (albeit with a lack of commitment) on Perth metro beaches. This is purely because the quantity and quality of ramps was there in what is a 'safe' location. Reefs a long way from shore are not so good for obvious reasons, hence why Lancelin is not great for learning forwards, and the challenge with some of the metro locations is the ramps aren't great, are too close to shore, and when present require you to point a bit upwind, which is fine once you are getting around but not conductive to learning.

Suggestion - get to coronations in the summer for a weekend and spend the first half of each session learning, then just enjoy the second half. If you are committed you'll get it dialled in enough (i.e. consistently landing on your back) so that when at your home spot you'll be able to keep progressing the technique, even if on relatively flat water.

Vince68
WA, 651 posts
21 Jun 2017 4:55PM
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nice piece of advice taken on board Snarky. I've had cros locked in my calendar since December last year. given the moons align i'm good to go.

Manuel7
268 posts
22 Jun 2017 5:20AM
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Stuthepirate said..
Personally, I'm getting the board "pop" and rig rotation technique down ok, I can get through a full rotation, land wet and water start after the completion of the move. It's just the commitment side of this once the forward rotation starts. After a couple of big crashes, the feeling of catapult creeps in as i start my rotation. It's a mental thing which makes me hesitate and stuff the move up.


Waterstarting away from one is already quite advanced :) !
It always takes me a bit to trigger my first one especially if not finding much to throw it on and having to deal with gusty winds.

On my first big crashes, I eased off a bit, now I don't mind and for some reason I'm not as sore anymore probably relaxing more into the crashes. I did find that two rash guards were better than just one :D ! I do have a sore front foot (I'm not sure it's front related or just the padding of the strap being a little stiff on that side) but that's slowed me down a bit.

What slows me down too is the conditions double overhead and gusty slightly overpowering winds, I couldn't try any... but as soon as the water state becomes more friendly and the wind manageable all of sudden it's like bam bam bam!

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Stuthepirate said..
Keep the pics and journal coming. It's great to see.


I might not! Camera won't read SD card anymore... darn technology.

Select to expand quote
Snarky said..
In my experience getting the location right is a big help. It is much easier to learn if there are some small ramps (even white water) that don't require effort to get air going downwind. I pretty much learnt to forward in two days in Coronations after quite a few seasons trying (albeit with a lack of commitment) on Perth metro beaches. This is purely because the quantity and quality of ramps was there in what is a 'safe' location.


I couldn't agree more, give me a spot close to the beach, with nice sets spaced out even side-on so long as they have a little kick and I could try dozens each time. Moving current and messy waves make it far more difficult. But that's no excuse, I'm sure there are tons of people who learned these moves with mitts and hoodie at dusk by themselves! (or not... :)!)

Wind crapped out for today, just like my camera...

beer pig
WA, 111 posts
22 Jun 2017 6:55AM
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Mate you've got it jam your feet in your straps and throw it harder you've passed all the initial scary stuff and your throwing them both tacks ?? . Next sesh gaver up all your bolas and go 100% . No more bitching out pics

Manuel7
268 posts
23 Jun 2017 7:52AM
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The green shorts helped I think. Looking good on the surfing side, just need a bit more commitment or wind.

On the surfing side I need to learn to jump while leaning forward with my arms up, feels really awkward. I still send my gear up and downwind but kinda ahead of me which makes the rotation too difficult. My mast is raked back. If I can correct this it'll look tons better.

Tomorrow is looking sad but sat/sun spectacular.

Mort67
TAS, 267 posts
24 Jun 2017 7:25AM
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I saw this clip on face book, check out the action at 0:33.
Maybe a mast mount for your gopro would be a good idea to see what's going on with your hands and boom. You've inspired me to have a go, albeit at stage one of the Pons Training video

mathew
VIC, 1741 posts
24 Jun 2017 8:51AM
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Manuel7 said..
39 knots... no try today, was just too tired and not in the mood to throw myself around or about.
Sooo.... made this video of the last best 3 attempts.


... my $0.02. Everyone is giving you feedback of "just need more commitment" ... that isn't your problem - you are already committed enough.

The problem appears to be mostly how you are preparing for the ramp... in this latest clip, it appears you are trying to chop-jump then do some type of rig rotation.

You need to put you back-hand on the boom-extension-clip, then stand-up tall over the board [ dont lean back at all ], then allow the board to pop upwards vertically [ look for a vertical wave - not more than 30cm, but the face must be vertical ]. The board should rise upwards at the nose at about a 45deg angle'ish. Then once the fin clears the water, do everything else that you are doing now.

If you look at the sub-planing examples, this description is basically the same thing - albeit without the fin letting go.... ie: hands wide apart, stand tall, allow the nose to pop up, then rotate.

... but if you aren't standing vertically [ in your vids, you are leaning back ], then there is better than average chance you are going to damage the nose of your board.

Manuel7
268 posts
24 Jun 2017 11:17AM
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Yeah absolutely. It's especially true on my jumping side. It's difficult for me not to rake the mast back from throwing high jumps or backloops. I do jump more upright when wanting to keep the plane and slightly move the rig forward to land nose first but when I want to rotate for some reason I lean back and out. Agreed on the ramp style, very difficult to find here. They've been quite big and upwind. With speed, I can get harder water but I also smack down that much harder.

I can see a clear evolution between my attempts, I have found some cards locally, if the camera isn't damaged they may work and I'll get some footage for the next couple of days. If not then I will have to use... WORDS :D !

SHQ
VIC, 316 posts
Site Sponsor
25 Jun 2017 6:43AM
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Mate, you're getting pretty close. From watching your videos I'd say there's just a couple of small things to think of then you'll be there. Everyone has said move your back hand back some more which I agree will help but the thing I think you should focus on now is your head!

I don't mean mentally because you are clearly over the big hurdle of pulling the trigger.

I mean simply turning your head more (which has flow on affects to your shoulders and whole body position). From where you are now (in those last few vids) turning your head and shoulders back more will fix all the other issues you're trying to solve. I've taught lots of people to loop and early on everyone says "but I am looking back" but it's got to be more than just a glance and the earlier it happens the better everything will be. The title frame in the video Roy has posted above shows very clearly where your head should be pointing and from my observations of your videos I don't think that is where your head is at. Fix this and you'll have them.

My usual tip is to have someone sail behind you (and slightly upwind of you) and then when you go for it look back at that person and stay looking at them. Focussing your eyes on something really helps and stops you over thinking everything else. The further back you look the more lift and rotation you'll get. You're not going to over rotate when you're learning so really go for it. Looking back naturally helps you do the other things you want to do like extending your front arm and sheeting in hard your back arm and as you get better it will help you spot the landings so you can get clean planing ones

In my opinion there are only 3 things to think about with a forward.
1. Get air - it is impossible to do a forward if you don't get your fin out of the water. Doesn't have to be big air but you have to be in the air... seems obvious but lots of people try when they aren't in the air.
2. Get your hand back on the boom. The further back the flatter the rotation will be. If you are high and want to go endo then you don't need to put your hand back. But if you are low and want to spin fast and flat (so your mast doesn't smack into the water) then you want your hand further back. Watch the pros do doubles, their back hand is literally on the boom clip.
3. Turn your head. Do it early and do it for the whole rotation. In the early days focus on something behind you.

I think you're getting 1 and 2 close enough that you should definitely be nailing them if you do 3 so I'd go out now and just focus on 3 for a while. Oh, and hold on tight - you're going to get some g force... it feels weird especially when you're looking behind you but don't let go... never let go!

Have fun!
Fletch

Manuel7
268 posts
25 Jun 2017 12:32PM
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Thanks for the detailed feedback. I do turn my head but I guess what you are saying is that I should turn my hips/shoulders and overall body towards the rear more, correct?

Got about 40 attempts today including crappy non-committed ones in overall lighter winds. My surfing side got a nice one where I landed on my back with the board, that was a first. But I didn't get much rotation because of holding back still for sure! (bent front arm), but I'm not getting thrown out of the straps much on that side.

On my jumping side, I made the same mistake of jumping and raking my mast back which blocks the rotation and prevents me from getting my board out of the way, since it was in the way... it got hurt again (the nose must have had something like 20 cracks so far at least, I have 2 other boards and they got cracked probably 4 or 5 times each too!)





So then I focused more on sending the sail forward and leaning my body forward sending the board downwind quickly, and it seemed to have helped a couple of attempts where the board was more out of the way. It also puts lots of stress on my front foot if I don't commit forward enough, I need to at least get falls on my back with the sail as opposed to the side without my back hand on!

I was thinking about looking back maybe farther down, like my back footstrap, something like this. I'm still afraid of falling straight downwind and tend to eyeball that area sometimes, not good!

My camera is out so no images for at least a month!
Overall, I think there's a bit more rotation each time and I'm getting slower but progress is pretty slow I think, wow!



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"Speed Loop again... but this time it's for real :) !" started by Manuel7