Forums > Stand Up Paddle Foiling

The Gong Allvator SUP/Surf foil

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Created by colas 9 months ago, 5 Sep 2018
DWF
86 posts
5 Mar 2019 11:46PM
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With a SUP, mast flex shows up as board instability. Detecting it in flight is more difficult.

You might not even be aware your boards side to side wobble is coming from mast flex until you try a stiff one. Then there is no going back to anything with flex.

sweats
33 posts
6 Mar 2019 2:32AM
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Sure you are right DWF. Would love to try a GoFoil or Neil Pryde foil oneday.

Hdip
24 posts
6 Mar 2019 3:48AM
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Camarillo said..

-Wing has a very loose fit on the fuselage, I would prefer to have to use
a rubber hammer , what can I do about that?
To be continued....


Here's a video that seconds what the other guy said about adding some tape to help with a loose fit. It's for mast to baseplate. I'm sure it would help with your situation too though.

Fishdude
51 posts
6 Mar 2019 11:32AM
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I like a snug fit also. 3M 3350 Mylar tape is very durable high strength and is 3.1 mils thin so it works good for shim stock. Tape on 3 sides gets a tight fit before the screws go in.




Camarillo
138 posts
6 Mar 2019 2:38PM
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sweats said..
Sure you are right DWF. Would love to try a GoFoil or Neil Pryde foil oneday.


don't do it, its going to cost you a lot of money

I have a narrow board and I need the stability that only a stiff foil can give me, I could of course get a wider board prefer to solve my balance problems with a stiff foil.

Camarillo
138 posts
6 Mar 2019 2:42PM
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Fishdude said..
I like a snug fit also. 3M 3350 Mylar tape is very durable high strength and is 3.1 mils thin so it works good for shim stock. Tape on 3 sides gets a tight fit before the screws go in.





3.1 mils ? how thick is that in mm?

Mwstard
55 posts
6 Mar 2019 4:03PM
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3.1 mil = 3.1 mm

warwickl
NSW, 1156 posts
6 Mar 2019 6:17PM
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Camarillo said..

Fishdude said..
I like a snug fit also. 3M 3350 Mylar tape is very durable high strength and is 3.1 mils thin so it works good for shim stock. Tape on 3 sides gets a tight fit before the screws go in.





3.1 mils ? how thick is that in mm?


Or if you are an old bloke like me then about 1/8th of an inch

hilly
WA, 4610 posts
6 Mar 2019 6:33PM
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For the price you pay it should not be necessary to shim it. Poor design.

surfcowboy
26 posts
6 Mar 2019 6:45PM
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hilly said..
For the price you pay it should not be necessary to shim it. Poor design.


I'm not so sure. I hear GoFoil owners tuning and shimming the fit all the time. It's pretty common in composite things.

Also, "mils" are 1000th of an inch, much smaller than a millimeter. Tape and sheet plastic is measured in these. Like 6 mil trash bags.

I'd also figure that weight plays a part in mast stiffness. Someone at 65 kg will notice less than someone at 80kg, no?

Clamsmasha
WA, 47 posts
6 Mar 2019 7:22PM
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hilly said..
For the price you pay it should not be necessary to shim it. Poor design.


Pretty much every brand of foil on the market has some kind of issue with quality, design or poor choice of wings etc.

I had to cut and grind my Maliko stab to make it right. (Still love my setup though) Axis has a thick, slow mast and like the GF my mates are cutting stabs/grinding wing trailing edges (they love their setups) Naish had a very weak tail assembly, and has been very late with the xxl wing (they look like they go alright too) Slingshot is just as sloppy as Gong and has a weak flush attachment between mast and fuse.

Most of these brands are coming out of the same industrial parks in China, at least Gong is pricing accordingly.

Fishdude
51 posts
6 Mar 2019 9:33PM
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hilly said..
For the price you pay it should not be necessary to shim it. Poor design.



Less than 0.5mm... A single coat of spray paint can be thicker than what we're talking about here. ( could also be an option) It's a good tolerance Imo. But if you want perfect...

I imagine the Powder coating is going to vary in its thickness also. So what shims work on one guys may not on another.

Mwstard
55 posts
7 Mar 2019 4:48AM
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Good point, noticed this difference on bikes

"Also, "mils" are 1000th of an inch, much smaller than a millimeter."
Doh! of course, this makes more sense. Always forget about weird non- metric stuff like this. In these parts "mils" is short hand for millimetres. Sorry.

Camarillo
138 posts
7 Mar 2019 1:58PM
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so 3,1 mils = 3,1x2,54/1000=0,07874 mm

Makes a lot more sense...

colas
3192 posts
7 Mar 2019 3:21PM
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Xavier Leroy at what is becoming the foil mecca of the Basque county, the scenic Saint Jean de Luz bay with its shallow reefs

Camarillo
138 posts
9 Mar 2019 3:13PM
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Camarillo said..
I had my first ride on the gong XXL...
My other foil is the NP Glide Large
My observations chronological:
-Nice travelbag!
-Wing is heavy compared to my NP wing but of course it is bigger
-NP mast is much wider
-Mast and plate mount are much lighter than NP mast and plate mount
-Screws are all M6 hex , all NP screws are M8 Torx
-No rubber pad on the plate like my NP, my JP 7'0 has some rocker curve at the dual boxes , perhaps not a good combination?
-Wing has a very loose fit on the fuselage, I would prefer to have to use
a rubber hammer , what can I do about that?
-Mast of my NP foil is much stiffer
-Out on the water: a lot more mast wobble than my NP, went in to tighten all screws but that didn't make a difference
-Conditions were very bad, small with chop almost as big as the tiny waves, couldn't get flying very easily but I sill have to make a wedge like I did for my NP and the mast wobble didn't make it any easier....

To be continued....


So I So I put some special tape on the fuselage to get a snugger fit of my wing.
I used tesa? 4287 Orange PP Strapping Tape thickness 0,079 mm
Next is taking care of the fit of my masts (I have a 45 and 65 cm mast) in the fuselage and the plate adapter.
Turns out my 45 cm mast has a nice fit in the fuselage and the plate adapter but my 65 has not!
Measured: the short mast is 14.6 mm thick and the 65 is 14.3 mm thick...
The 45 cm mast is just for summer , to catch small waves in shallow water...
So now I am taping the my mast at the plate and the fuselage and wait for the right conditions for my XXL...

To be continued...

One question: The plate has 8 holes which of them should I use to minimize the chance of damage?
I myself think I should use the inner ones...

colas
3192 posts
9 Mar 2019 3:44PM
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Camarillo said..
I used tesa? 4287 Orange PP Strapping Tape thickness 0,079 mm

One question: The plate has 8 holes which of them should I use to minimize the chance of damage?
I myself think I should use the inner ones...


For the tape, I would advise something rigid and tear-resistant - like mylar - so that it does not risk tearing/bundling up like an old sock. On my US Box fins supergluing pieces of old radiographic film worked very well, or rigid mylar tape used to repair sails,

For questions like the holes to use, just email info@gongsup.com

Camarillo
138 posts
9 Mar 2019 4:20PM
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colas said..

Camarillo said..
I used tesa? 4287 Orange PP Strapping Tape thickness 0,079 mm

One question: The plate has 8 holes which of them should I use to minimize the chance of damage?
I myself think I should use the inner ones...



For the tape, I would advise something rigid and tear-resistant - like mylar - so that it does not risk tearing/bundling up like an old sock. On my US Box fins supergluing pieces of old radiographic film worked very well, or rigid mylar tape used to repair sails,

For questions like the holes to use, just email info@gongsup.com


Tesa 4287 Orange PP Strapping Tape is very strong tape
I normally use it for making my Mountainbike rims ready for tubeless
But it is a pain to use tape especially if you as instructed disassemble the foil after every use!

You must have thoughts on what holes to use Colas?
A downwinder here in Capetown takes us 2 kilometers from the beach, 30 knots average winds, 10 degrees water. The thought of loosing my foil makes me nervous, that is why I want to use the optimal holes.
And perhaps more people want to know?

colas
3192 posts
9 Mar 2019 4:47PM
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Camarillo said..
You must have thoughts on what holes to use Colas?




No, I do not use the plate mount.

In theory, mechanically, the outer holes are the strongest assembly (it spreads more the forces on the bolts). But there is less material around the hole to prevent a tear in the metal. I would guess that all things considered the outer holes are the safest option but I really have no proof, so I'd be more comfortable with the Gong team giving you advice on this.

My personal opinion is that the weakest link is most probably the board and boxes anyways...

A foil leash with some thin dyneema cord seems a good idea (2mm resists to 500kg traction) for all foils in any case, attached to the rear leash plug.

If you are paranoid, maybe adding a metal bar (as a big washer) connecting 2 bolts and sandwiching the plate could be a good idea to spread the load even more. Or just using 8 bolts instead of 4...

Camarillo
138 posts
14 Mar 2019 2:17AM
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Thank you for the video, as we noticed it is normal in this kind of mast. After it will be well screwed it won't be moving anymore. The slightly difference between the 45 cm and 65 cm is the painting cover. In the 45 cm is a bit thicker and in the 65 a bit lighter. It can change a bit the insertion of the mast but that is the only little difference.

The mast is totally safe.
photos.app.goo.gl/iVGU3ex7YbGhmAvc9

Hdip
24 posts
14 Mar 2019 6:29AM
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I've been using the Naish baseplate for almost a year now. (same baseplate as gong) I use the outermost holes on each corner and have never had an issue.

colas
3192 posts
4 Apr 2019 5:27PM
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Just for the kicks, wildtech is developing an e-foil and seems quite happy with using a Gong foil.

www.facebook.com/wildtech.eu/

colas
3192 posts
3 May 2019 7:42PM
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This unedited 6mn boat wake ride is useful to get a feel on how the foil reacts.
This is the Allvator L (80cm), standard 45cm stab and 65cm mast. Rider (Patrice Guenole) is 100kg.
For instance, you can see the neutral handling: yaw or roll movements do not trigger rocking/pitching ones.

ankers
2 posts
9 May 2019 6:43PM
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Hi there

did anybody enlarge the holes in the baseplate to ensure an M8 screw fits instead of the M6 screws
In case you did, did you take the outer holes or inner holes

Don't understand why Gong does not make the base plate for 2 different screw sizes, so it fits all

thanks
ankers

Fishdude
51 posts
21 May 2019 1:02PM
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ankers said..
Hi there

did anybody enlarge the holes in the baseplate to ensure an M8 screw fits instead of the M6 screws
In case you did, did you take the outer holes or inner holes

Don't understand why Gong does not make the base plate for 2 different screw sizes, so it fits all

thanks
ankers



I didn't like the brass T-nuts that came with my foil so I bought 8mm and 6mm Stainless Steal T-nuts from "Foilmount".

The foilmount 6mm turned out to have MUCH better thread tolerances than the brass ones, and also have 50% more contact flat area. The difference in strength between the brass and the good fitting SS is very substantial.
The 6mm has the same flat contact area as the 8mm. The tension load rating of 6mm SS screw in a good fitting SS T-nut is likly stronger than the boxes can hold, so not much point in drilling and contersinking for bigger 8mm not to mention the material removed form the plate contersinking for 8mm screws. The SS 6mm T-nuts are just a better option than the 8mm IMO.

Oh yeah the extra screw holes in the plate give you more front and back positioning range. Most just use the outer most holes.


colas
3192 posts
22 May 2019 10:52PM
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The Gong shaper, Patrice Guenole, 100kg, not a kid anymore, in a session in 1' waves during the lunch break (buoy was at 0.3/0.6m 10s) on the Gong Allvator XXL in Britanny:

He says that now two thirds of the Gong staff (17 people) is now foiling.

JEG
VIC, 1150 posts
23 May 2019 10:59AM
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colas said..
The Gong shaper, Patrice Guenole, 100kg, not a kid anymore, in a session in 1' waves during the lunch break (buoy was at 0.3/0.6m 10s) on the Gong Allvator XXL in Britanny:

He says that now two thirds of the Gong staff (17 people) is now foiling.



unbelievable how he catches those tiny waves at 100kg, soo good to watch Mr Gong rippin it up!

exiled
202 posts
23 May 2019 9:52AM
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How big is that prone board he's on?

colas
3192 posts
23 May 2019 12:09PM
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exiled said..
How big is that prone board he's on?


It is the Matata 5'8"
Details in gongsupshop.com/epages/box1707.sf/en_GB/?ViewObjectPath=%2FShops%2Fbox1707%2FProducts%2FGON93CSMATAG58

Length : 5'8 = 172,7 cm
Width : 22" 5/8 = 57,5 cm
Thickness : 3" 7/16 = 8,8 cm
Volume : 55 litres
One foot off nose : 19" 5/16 = 49 cm
One foot off tail : 19" 11/16 = 50 cm
Rocker total : 21,3 cm
Foil mount : 2 Us Boxes 10,5"
3CS Weight : 5 kg (weight margins + or - 5%)



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"The Gong Allvator SUP/Surf foil" started by colas