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The Gong Allvator SUP/Surf foil

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Created by colas > 9 months ago, 5 Sep 2018
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Supnorte
262 posts
22 Oct 2019 9:10PM
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gbrungra said..
So if you had to buy one front wing to learn to flatwater SUPfoil start, would it be XXL, or XXL Pro? I know low aspect starts earlier, but the XXL Pro just has so much extra area...

Nobody had done a flatwater start until 2-3 years ago. Probably still fewer than 100 worldwide can do one? I've read that several people were very close, but could not do it until getting a 2400cm^2 wing.

il hoping that as technology (boards, fools, paddles) are optimized for flatwater starting, enough people will be able to do it that it becomes its own discipline. It would open up foilboarding to inland people w bad wind, just like touring SUP vs Surf SUP.


There are a lot more people doing flatwater starts than 100 people worldwide and I personally know a few.

Here's a video of a friend of mine that started foiling only a few months ago. He's not a pro or anything like that (he has a day job and pnly foils when he can). He is using the Axis Foils 920 front wing (Wing Span: 92cm - 36in / Actual Area: 1852cm^2 - 287 square inches / Projected Area: 1816cm^2 - 281 square inches / Volume: 3753 cm^3 - 229 cubic inches / Chord: 250mm):
www.facebook.com/watch/?v=421731365093410

Here's another friend of mine (he's been foiling since last year and he's really good at it) on his first attempt on the Axis Foils 1020 front wing (Wing Span: 102 cm - 40 inches / Actual Area: 2051 cm^2 - 318 square inches /
Projected Area: 2013 cm^2 - 312 square inches / Volume: 4161 cm^3 - 254 cubic inches / Chord: 250mm):
www.facebook.com/axisfoilsportugal/videos/321588832077043/?v=321588832077043
He can also do flatwater starts now on the new High Aspect 1000 from Axis (MAX CHORD: 160mm / ACTUAL AREA 1388 square cm / 215 square inches / SPAN: 1000 mm / 39.5 inches / PROJECTED AREA: 1310 square cm / 203 square inches / VOLUME: 1904 cubic cm / 116 cubic inches)

And last month it was the first Spanish Foiling National Championship. It was supposed to be a DW race, but since there was no wind they ran a 2 km race with wind or waves. Four out of five guys managed to lift the wing. I think 3 were using Axis 1020 (I'm sure 2 were, since I know them and the other one I think wss also using it) and another I think was on a GoFoil.
My friend ended up winning the race (despite being Portuguese) because he had enough stamina to keep foiling the whole way (I think he did 3 water starts during the race):
www.facebook.com/watch/?v=2446016629007426

So, my conclusion is wings can perform much better than what you expect and (almost) ordinary people too.

colas
4986 posts
22 Oct 2019 9:27PM
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Supnorte said..
My friend ended up winning the race (despite being Portuguese) because he had enough stamina to keep foiling the whole way


Well, kind of confirm what I say... these people are in the "able to win a race" category.

Supnorte
262 posts
23 Oct 2019 5:30PM
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colas said..

Supnorte said..
My friend ended up winning the race (despite being Portuguese) because he had enough stamina to keep foiling the whole way



Well, kind of confirm what I say... these people are in the "able to win a race" category.


The guy on the first video only started foiling a few months before that video, is 42 years old, has a day job and growing family and only foils on the weekends (when he has time). So it doesn't seemed like a pro to me.

The guys on the Spanish championship are well over 40, except for my friend (35) and the kid that wasn't able to fly on the wing.

frenchfoiler
498 posts
23 Oct 2019 6:49PM
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Supnorte said..

colas said..


Supnorte said..
My friend ended up winning the race (despite being Portuguese) because he had enough stamina to keep foiling the whole way




Well, kind of confirm what I say... these people are in the "able to win a race" category.



The guy on the first video only started foiling a few months before that video, is 42 years old, has a day job and growing family and only foils on the weekends (when he has time). So it doesn't seemed like a pro to me.

The guys on the Spanish championship are well over 40, except for my friend (35) and the kid that wasn't able to fly on the wing.


I think that what is saying is that those guys are good paddler, probably sup racer background. I'm not really into the flat water foiling but it is a good way to get ready for dw for sure.

colas
4986 posts
23 Oct 2019 8:36PM
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frenchfoiler said..
I think that what is saying is that those guys are good paddler, probably sup racer background.



Thanks frenchfoiler, Yes, that's what I meant. If you look at the vids (including the one I posted of Eric Terrien), they are not able to pump the foil (they do not reach the speed needed for an self-sufficient foil pumping), they only keep flying by sheer paddling force, which requires a pro-level paddling stamina and technique.

I know a lot of people enjoying inland flat water foil pumping, but they now all dock start, and with "lunch tray" minimal boards. I guess the size of the board needed to manage the feat of flat water SUP take offs makes it not enjoyable (and utterly exhausting) to sustain the flight by pumping the foil afterwards. So once they have the technique to keep pumping they tend to switch to micro boards, hence no more paddle, and flying is then still exhausting but at a level reacheable by most people.

So my message to gbrungra was not to focus only on flat-water SUP foiling, which seem hard and not enjoyable in the long term, and especially not be disappointed if he doesn't succeed: a paddle is not the easiest way to enjoy flat water foiling.

gbrungra
11 posts
24 Oct 2019 12:39AM
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colas said..

frenchfoiler said..
I think that what is saying is that those guys are good paddler, probably sup racer background.




Thanks frenchfoiler, Yes, that's what I meant. If you look at the vids (including the one I posted of Eric Terrien), they are not able to pump the foil (they do not reach the speed needed for an self-sufficient foil pumping), they only keep flying by sheer paddling force, which requires a pro-level paddling stamina and technique.

I know a lot of people enjoying inland flat water foil pumping, but they now all dock start, and with "lunch tray" minimal boards. I guess the size of the board needed to manage the feat of flat water SUP take offs makes it not enjoyable (and utterly exhausting) to sustain the flight by pumping the foil afterwards. So once they have the technique to keep pumping they tend to switch to micro boards, hence no more paddle, and flying is then still exhausting but at a level reacheable by most people.

So my message to gbrungra was not to focus only on flat-water SUP foiling, which seem hard and not enjoyable in the long term, and especially not be disappointed if he doesn't succeed: a paddle is not the easiest way to enjoy flat water foiling.


Supnorte, thank you for the video links. It's always inspiring to see people who are able to flatwater start.

Colas, interesting point about board size. It's true that I haven't seen a video in which someone flatwater starts, and then pumps for a long time without additional paddling. What's the smallest board still able to flatwater start? 6'? Obviously volume required is dependent on rider weight and skill.

However, if the Spanish SUP Nationals race was 3km, and the winner only touched down 3 times, then we can assume he flatwater started, and pumped/paddled for at least 1km. That's good enough for me. I'm just looking for offseason training and fast exercise.

If shopping for the perfect board, it would be very short and thick/wide? Short to have low swing weight for easy pumping, and thick/wide to get enough volume to stand on and get up to lift-off speed?

colas
4986 posts
24 Oct 2019 5:32PM
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gbrungra said..
If shopping for the perfect board,






I guess you should never "shop for the perfect board" as a beginner in any discipline.

Just shop for the perfect board for learning to flat water start with a paddle first, and learn the base of pumping, maybe with some towed sessions (initial speed is key to maintain pumping). I guess any of the modern foil boards may work, but you should ask people able to start from flat water for advice, which I maintain is a very small number, and may be found more in the SUP flat racers communities.

Then you will switch boards for the next step of your progression. This gear resell well anyways.

By the way, what is your paddling strength? did you enter SUP races? did to practice rowing, canoe, kayaks, outriggers?

Again, this is not to say that should not try it. But to give you alternatives to enjoy foiling on flat water, the easiest path seems to first learn behind a boat or with a lift at a water park, or even use a wing sail for power, and get the pumping dialed once you let go the rope or depower the sail, and then learn to dock start. And if you can start with the non-pro wing, and then resell to get the pro.

gbrungra
11 posts
25 Oct 2019 1:04AM
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colas said..

gbrungra said..
If shopping for the perfect board,







I guess you should never "shop for the perfect board" as a beginner in any discipline.

Just shop for the perfect board for learning to flat water start with a paddle first, and learn the base of pumping, maybe with some towed sessions (initial speed is key to maintain pumping). I guess any of the modern foil boards may work, but you should ask people able to start from flat water for advice, which I maintain is a very small number, and may be found more in the SUP flat racers communities.

Then you will switch boards for the next step of your progression. This gear resell well anyways.

By the way, what is your paddling strength? did you enter SUP races? did to practice rowing, canoe, kayaks, outriggers?

Again, this is not to say that should not try it. But to give you alternatives to enjoy foiling on flat water, the easiest path seems to first learn behind a boat or with a lift at a water park, or even use a wing sail for power, and get the pumping dialed once you let go the rope or depower the sail, and then learn to dock start. And if you can start with the non-pro wing, and then resell to get the pro.


I certainly agree that trying to buy perfect gear on the first try is foolish.

I am a mid-30's, fit SUP paddler. I have been kitefoiling for 2 years. Haven't learned to pump, but agree that learning with wind/boat would be a prerequisite to trying to flatwater foil. I live on a river, and I was actually thinking of attaching a tow rope to a bridge and using the river flow to lift the foil, then try to pump in place...

I am leaning towards the Gong XXL (regular, not Pro).

Thanks for the advice!

colas
4986 posts
25 Oct 2019 1:43PM
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gbrungra said..
I am a mid-30's, fit SUP paddler. I have been kitefoiling for 2 years.


Mmm, a good solution then could be to kitefoil with your SUP/Surf foil XXL wing with the smallest sail (I guess a tiny sail can power an XXL foil), and try to put the sail in neutral once flying and pump? This to get the hang of how pumping works, before attempting with a paddle?

sozz
27 posts
25 Oct 2019 6:59PM
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I cut around 90mm off a gong large pro last weekend to take it down to the classic medium span but with the thinner profile and higher aspect planshape, felt pretty damn good last night on its maiden voyage, I didn't really like it on steeper parts of the wave beforehand.
the rear smaller surf stab has been chopped back also.
Need a few more sessions to really know how it's turned out but happy so far.

It was 1227cm before so I'd guess mid 1100s now?


nesup
40 posts
25 Oct 2019 7:20PM
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I have just got in from my first session on the xxl pro wing. I bought this wing for wind winging but the surf was tiny today so I thought I would give it a try. A spot near me had a little peak before deeper water made the wave nothing more than a little lump. I used it with the largest 55 cm stab. It took of with ease as you would imagine but it also glided with very little input from me on the tiniest of lumps. It turned albeit slowly. It ended up being a super fun session. Foiling continues to amaze me!

Fishdude
283 posts
25 Oct 2019 11:53PM
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sozz said..
I cut around 90mm off a gong large pro last weekend to take it down to the classic medium span but with the thinner profile and higher aspect planshape, felt pretty damn good last night on its maiden voyage, I didn't really like it on steeper parts of the wave beforehand.
the rear smaller surf stab has been chopped back also.
Need a few more sessions to really know how it's turned out but happy so far.

It was 1227cm before so I'd guess mid 1100s now?



Looks good. How is the Takuma mast compared to gongs?

Thatspec
327 posts
26 Oct 2019 12:45AM
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A brave mod Sozz, looking forward to hear more.
Count me as also curious about the fitment of the Takuma mast into the Gong fuselage.

Just recently purchased a Gong XL pro front wing, 55cm stab / 80cm mast package. Can't wait to try it!
I hope they decide to produce some very high aspect front wings like the Go Foil GL's in the future.

sozz
27 posts
26 Oct 2019 12:48AM
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Fishdude said..

sozz said..
I cut around 90mm off a gong large pro last weekend to take it down to the classic medium span but with the thinner profile and higher aspect planshape, felt pretty damn good last night on its maiden voyage, I didn't really like it on steeper parts of the wave beforehand.
the rear smaller surf stab has been chopped back also.
Need a few more sessions to really know how it's turned out but happy so far.

It was 1227cm before so I'd guess mid 1100s now?




Looks good. How is the Takuma mast compared to gongs?



i haven't measured it for wall thickness etc but i'll say it's pretty much the same thing, just slightly sexier finish and it's 70 cm instead of 65cm on the gong,
the baseplate does look a lot more solid than the gong ones so i'm choosing it for that as well, i've been using it in well overhead surf and it's not broken where i wouldn't have confidence that the gong would still be attached.

i really need to move to a carbon mast/base setup to eliminate the worry of things breaking off in big surf.

sozz
27 posts
26 Oct 2019 12:54AM
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Thatspec said..
A brave mod Sozz, looking forward to hear more.
Count me as also curious about the fitment of the Takuma mast into the Gong fuselage.

Just recently purchased a Gong XL pro front wing, 55cm stab / 80cm mast package. Can't wait to try it!
I hope they decide to produce some very high aspect front wings like the Go Foil GL's in the future.


it's the same fitment, actually maybe the gong fuse is a slightly better/tighter fit on the takuma mast than the gong to be fair,

i switch between the gong and the takuma fuses regularly depending on conditions using that mast setup.

it wasn't that big a deal to mod the wing, it didn't do what i wanted so i've tried to make it happen working with what i've got, definitely suits how i like to ride more now, hopefully the next sessions don't disappoint...

colas
4986 posts
26 Oct 2019 1:22PM
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sozz said..
i really need to move to a carbon mast/base setup to eliminate the worry of things breaking off in big surf.



Things will break in big surf, just be prepared for it. There will always be a weaker link to break when the gear is caught in powerful broken waves. Better replace a cheap bent mast than having the board break and get water in the blank. Or having a carbon mast break and lose the foil.

And I broke 2 carbon masts but not yet bent an alu one ... but I stopped getting out in more than chest high waves with a foil anyways, for me the risks are then not worth the fun, I SUP.

If you want to foil in big waves, I suggest learning to surf foil instead of SUP foiling: the low volume boards provide much less stress on the foil when tumbling in waves.

sozz
27 posts
26 Oct 2019 4:29PM
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Oh I'm proning on a 4'8" colas, although I could definitely do with a lower volume more streamlined board for bigger waves, my current one is a handful to duckdive to say the least.

What carbon masts have you broken?

colas
4986 posts
26 Oct 2019 6:46PM
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Ah on a 4'8", that's quite different.. I guess you can tackle some size without too much worries then.

It was Hellvator Gong masts. But they did not broke in half, I felt the cracks appear (sudden wobbles), one along the mast length (but it was a 2nd hand prototype), the other along the fuz and tuttle head, and could reach the beach before losing it. But it was in quite hollow conditions, with the tide going out the spot changed quickly. Another time the mast held, but not the board, so I stopped trying to push the limits while foiling.

Dspace
VIC, 284 posts
4 Nov 2019 8:00PM
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Quick review of XL pro versus XL standard for wing foiling. Background; I'm ~78kg, Blue Planet Carver 5'8" strapless, Duotone 5 and 4m wings. Riding the 65 cm mast and 45 cm rear stabilizer. Two seasons of kitefoiling background and about 6 sessions wing foiling so far. Flatwater riding in Outer Banks, North Carolina. For wing foiling the pro just feels so much better than the standard. Just had my first session on it in 12-19 mph winds. Feels like it will come up on foil as quickly as the standard despite 12% less area (I'm not a good pumper yet, but some improvement each session). The reduced drag is readily apparent when on the foil and even when schlogging off the foil. Speed and glide when on the foil is really improved over the standard for winging. I was expecting a much more pitch sensitive feel but it felt as easy to handle as the standard when winging. Low end feels just about the same but the high end added at least 5-7 knots, from seat of the pants feel. Ok it might not be at the GL or Albatross level (I haven't ridden either) but still feels great.

My jibes and foot switching are getting more consistent and I even tried my first few toeside to heelside upwind tacks. Haven't gotten one yet, but getting closer now with the improved speed and glide of the pro. Practicing pumping at 45 deg off the wind with a luffed wing for now. Of course the Duotone doesn't luff that well

If I try and roll the board really quickly from side to side you can feel a "little" mast flex with the 65 cm mast (I suspect the 80 would be a little worse) but with most carving (even fairly tight radius) you just don't notice it as much. I could see how Paddle foilers in much bumpier conditions would feel much more sensitive to mast flex. I'm still anxiously awaiting the Carbon mast/fuselage release.

Will be putting my standard XL and completely unused standard XXL up for sale here in the States. The pro XXL looks interesting, but we generally have enough wind here, and I'll hopefully stay light enough??, that it won't be necessary. It looks huge!

(My daughter worked at Kite Republic in Melbourne last season and is looking to work in Exmouth next season. Hopefully I'll be visiting with some gear to play with)

Thatspec
327 posts
5 Nov 2019 6:42AM
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Dspace,
Have you shimmed your fuselage to front wing taper at all or just tightened down the bolts? I've just put my XL pro on to the Gong Fuselage for the first time and can see that just pushing sideways on the mast with the wing on the floor, most of the movement is in the front wing connection. It looks like once that's shimmed (I'm trying metal tape first), it should be a pretty rigid setup.

colas
4986 posts
5 Nov 2019 10:57PM
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colas said..
they did not broke in half, I felt the cracks appear (sudden wobbles), one along the mast length


A bit like: www.standupzone.com/forum/index.php/topic,35459.msg408319.html#msg408319

Dspace
VIC, 284 posts
6 Nov 2019 11:40AM
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Thatspec said..
Dspace,
Have you shimmed your fuselage to front wing taper at all or just tightened down the bolts? I've just put my XL pro on to the Gong Fuselage for the first time and can see that just pushing sideways on the mast with the wing on the floor, most of the movement is in the front wing connection. It looks like once that's shimmed (I'm trying metal tape first), it should be a pretty rigid setup.


My XL pro wing is a snug fit to start with. I need to tap it with a rubber mallet to get it off, and it doesn't seem budge otherwise. The only time I can get the foil to flex is when I rock from rail to rail pretty quickly. I wouldn't normally ride that way. Anyway, it's not significant, but it would be nice to see it stiffened up a bit.
I have used that same mast design on an RRD kite foil wing (H-flight) that was only 600 sq cm. Naish and Takuma used the same mast (from the same factory) on their kite foils. It was always meant for smaller kite foils

RichJam
WA, 237 posts
8 Nov 2019 2:59PM
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Good feedback on the pro wings.
I am starting to wing and the flex out of the 80cm mast is driving me crazy. Would like a stiffer option that isn't Axis!

I wonder if they plan to do a super high aspect version soon.

rmitch
23 posts
23 Nov 2019 2:57AM
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Does anyone know the new Gong Pro front wing projected surface area specs? Interested to know the XL and XXL as I'm trying to get a rough comparison to other foils. I've seen the shared google doc and I question the pro specs in there and can't find them anywhere on the web or Gong site. Thanks!

Clamsmasha
WA, 311 posts
23 Nov 2019 4:22AM
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rmitch said..
Does anyone know the new Gong Pro front wing projected surface area specs? Interested to know the XL and XXL as I'm trying to get a rough comparison to other foils. I've seen the shared google doc and I question the pro specs in there and can't find them anywhere on the web or Gong site. Thanks!

Projected,
XL 1773cm2
XXL 2609cm2

rmitch
23 posts
23 Nov 2019 4:49AM
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Clamsmasha said..

rmitch said..
Does anyone know the new Gong Pro front wing projected surface area specs? Interested to know the XL and XXL as I'm trying to get a rough comparison to other foils. I've seen the shared google doc and I question the pro specs in there and can't find them anywhere on the web or Gong site. Thanks!


Projected,
XL 1773cm2
XXL 2609cm2


Thanks Clamsmasha, I too just found it on the Tech tab for a given wing on the Gong site. That's quite the jump from XL to XXL. Cheers!

JEG
VIC, 1469 posts
27 Nov 2019 10:45AM
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colas said..
The one-part fuz+mast+plate full carbon has been announced. Pre-orderable now, shipping early march 2020.
70 and 100cm lengths.
Threads on the fuz go all through, so you can screw the wings now both from the bottom and the top of the wing (by drilling holes), for extra stiffness in fuz/wing connection.
Only available with a plate, no tuttle.

This is 432 euros more than the alu fuz + mast + plate ( 599 euros vs 167 euros)


Details at www.gong-galaxy.com/en/product/gong-foil-allvator-carbon-pro-mast-70-surf/




well done gong

finally somebody is listening to me "one-part fuz+mast+plate full carbon".

next project is high aspect wings Gong?

colas
4986 posts
27 Nov 2019 2:11PM
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JEG said..
next project is high aspect wings Gong?



Well, the high aspect foil wings is the "Pro" line that has been available since August, unless you are meaning something else?

Clamsmasha
WA, 311 posts
27 Nov 2019 2:15PM
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colas said..

JEG said..
next project is high aspect wings Gong?




Well, the high aspect foil wings is the "Pro" line that has been available since August, unless you are meaning something else?


Full high aspect wings, akin to the Axis, Sig, GL etc.

colas
4986 posts
27 Nov 2019 2:36PM
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Clamsmasha said..
Full high aspect wings, akin to the Axis, Sig, GL etc.


The Gong Pro are already high aspect. For instance the Axis 1020 aspect ratio is 4.08, and the Gong XXL pro is 4.32.
I did not see any hint of new wings yet.



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"The Gong Allvator SUP/Surf foil" started by colas