segler said..

Also, since others talk about moving the front footstrap back, what I don't see is anybody commenting on how the foil will tend to breach as soon as you start to rotate the sail since it loses its mast base pressure during rotation. Maybe the comment about putting the leeward foot just aft of the leeward footstrasp counteracts this.

This happens to me ALL THE TIME! Would love setup advice for it. Or maybe it's jibe trajectory idk.

Also, with apologies to my friend thedoor, he rides with his sail mast almost between the front footstraps (!), much farther back than you see from Greg or Emily above. Since I see him jibing so smooth all the time I try it, but in addition to making the takeoff very unstable, I feel like I'm going to break my nose on the boom as it comes around.

I went back to the slapper the other day. The sail mast is much farther forward of course and I was making my jibes in spite of it being crazy 30+ conditions and not even having tried a fin jibe in over 6 months. I feel like such a mental mess jibe wise right now but also that I'm missing something fundamental.

Sandman1221 said..

Grantmac said..
My foot stays in the strap until I'm powered up on the new tack. I haven't see a single competent foiler pull a foot out before initiating the gybe.
Having both feet out puts you even further from the mast base, which is already too far ahead on that board. Makes it far harder to get the rig balanced so it rotates easily.

Assume you are referring to me Grantmac. What Andy Brandt told me to do was to stay balanced over the foil during the foiling gybe. Not sure why you are hung up on mast base, but for my kit I need my front foot back to stay balanced over the foil, and of course so did Andy. Have to assume you are not a teaching professional who travels all over the country teaching people on their equipment, based on your lack of understanding about how a particular kit (in this case a fin slalom board) influences foot position during a foiling gybe.

The point is Andy is having to do some unconventional things to compensate for a non-ideal setup (not enough forward lift).

This is a big reason why I wanted to get a foil specific board. I was using the Blast, which had a narrower tail and mast track more forward, which made jibing foils with far rearward lift (Infinity 99 in this case) very difficult to keep flying during jibes because there was nowhere to put my foot.

Andy's big levitator (I dunno, maybe 160l?), the 95cm IQFoil board, the Wizard 114, and now the FoilX all feel like the pressure is better (especially during jibes) than the Blast.

You can learn how to jibe that board without adding more shim to lift the nose/adjusting straps rearward but if/when you get a dedicated foil board you'll have to go back and re-learn to not move your front foot until you switch stance, and also re-compensate for how the mast is a lot closer to the front straps.

Sandman1221 said..
Yes segler, front foot slides backward out of the foot strap about 8-9" just before entering the gybe on a fin slalom board like the Goya Bolt, with rear foot all the way across the board just in front of the rear foot strap, so that I am balanced over the "AFS Wind95 foil", which is what Andy Brandt taught me to do.

Eeek! It sounds like Andy was teaching you to do that to compensate for how the board is set up. Yes, it gets you around but this is not a long term solution and will eventually impede your progress as you move to higher speed jibes or ones in more challenging conditions. I'm not going to say don't go out and try a few in flat water the way you are currently set up but you are going to absolutely hit a wall in your progress until your gear is re-trimmed.

Segler, maybe this helps. The balance comes from a) the loss of the mast base pressure from popping out of the harness is countered by moving the back foot forward b) the straight front arm extending the rig forward helps put some pressure back down on the mast base and pull the board through the jibe and c) a subtle shift of weight from back to forward as you enter the jibe - just like a good carving fin jibe that keeps the rail engaged, a good carving foil jibe has you forward over the board, not leaning back. It also really helps to spot your exit and not stare at the nose of the board. This allows your body to level out the board and control the height by intuitive weight shifts and swinging the mast forward or back as needed. Even when I'm rotating the sail, I can have the mast more forward or back as needed. This becomes even more important when jibing in tight wind chop and you have to adjust very quickly to the changing state under the board.

Paducah said..

Segler, maybe this helps. The balance comes from a) the loss of the mast base pressure from popping out of the harness is countered by moving the back foot forward

One of the things I got from Andy, regardless of fin or foil jibing, was that I rushed the process from out of harness-> rear foot -> sail forward and sheeted in -> getting pulled over the board to start carving.

I was doing it all too quickly. Been trying to set up slowly and do each of those steps one by one while maintaining speed/direction/stability. It has been helping a lot.

When I rush it, like this weekend when I was overpowered on a fin with a 6.6, scared, I rushed it and lost speed, composure, and everything else on my jibes.

Well what I am learning to judge is the wind pressure on the sail needed to complete a foiling gybe, and that is making me mentally slow down to pay attention. And just because I can foil along just fine does not mean I have enough wind pressure in the sail to complete a foiling gybe. It takes more than the min. wind speed to foil in order for me to complete a foiling gybe. Fortunately both sessions I had with Andy the wind was good, nice steady long gusts that powered up my 5.8. Now when I enter a gybe I know right away if I have enough speed and wind to complete it, and if I do not I cut out and keep on foiling! Have been practicing with the same setup that Andy taught me on, that has helped a lot because with him I was powered up good, is a good bench mark to judge conditions.

aeroegnr said..

Sandman1221 said..

Grantmac said..
My foot stays in the strap until I'm powered up on the new tack. I haven't see a single competent foiler pull a foot out before initiating the gybe.
Having both feet out puts you even further from the mast base, which is already too far ahead on that board. Makes it far harder to get the rig balanced so it rotates easily.

Assume you are referring to me Grantmac. What Andy Brandt told me to do was to stay balanced over the foil during the foiling gybe. Not sure why you are hung up on mast base, but for my kit I need my front foot back to stay balanced over the foil, and of course so did Andy. Have to assume you are not a teaching professional who travels all over the country teaching people on their equipment, based on your lack of understanding about how a particular kit (in this case a fin slalom board) influences foot position during a foiling gybe.

The point is Andy is having to do some unconventional things to compensate for a non-ideal setup (not enough forward lift).

This is a big reason why I wanted to get a foil specific board. I was using the Blast, which had a narrower tail and mast track more forward, which made jibing foils with far rearward lift (Infinity 99 in this case) very difficult to keep flying during jibes because there was nowhere to put my foot.

Andy's big levitator (I dunno, maybe 160l?), the 95cm IQFoil board, the Wizard 114, and now the FoilX all feel like the pressure is better (especially during jibes) than the Blast.

You can learn how to jibe that board without adding more shim to lift the nose/adjusting straps rearward but if/when you get a dedicated foil board you'll have to go back and re-learn to not move your front foot until you switch stance, and also re-compensate for how the mast is a lot closer to the front straps.

The only thing Andy did to compensate for my kit was to stand on the back end of the board during the gybe, but he weights less than me so had to be father back to balance, moving my front foot back 8-9" is not big deal but if I am powered up enough I do not need to move my foot back at all, that is how I did my first foiling gybe with a light touch down in the middle, front foot was in foot strap before the sail flip.

And if I transition into a planing gybe, I can get all the way around with the front foot in the strap too, but have to be powered up decently.

The whole issue of Andy needing to have both feet back on the board during the gybe may be due to when he did the his runs, the wind had dropped and within 15 min. most people (windsurfers, wingers, and windfoilers) got off the water. Lighter winds take more back foot pressure to get up on my kit, so it makes sense it would take more back foot pressure during the gybe to keep the nose up and the easiest way to do that is to move the front foot back since the Bolt has a narrow tail.

aeroegnr said..

Sandman1221 said..
The whole issue of Andy needing to have both feet back on the board during the gybe may be due to when he did the his runs, the wind had dropped and within 15 min. most people (windsurfers, wingers, and windfoilers) got off the water. Lighter winds take more back foot pressure to get up on my kit, so it makes sense it would take more back foot pressure during the gybe to keep the nose up and the easiest way to do that is to move the front foot back since the Bolt has a narrow tail.

This is very similar to the issue I had with the Blast, which was good on a foil until it got to jibing. There were also the bolts sticking out above the fin boxes. I wonder if it would have been better without the rear straps at all, because that would help get in a more optimum jibing position, but I didn't want to do that as I used it for fin as well. It was still very back foot heavy for the 99 wing, not so much for the 76.

Your wing should be able to carry more speed in the jibe, which helps a lot. But really think about trim.

Took off the rear straps from the Bolt long ago. Will have to try the foiling gybe with the F770 wing, it has so much less resistance in flight than the F1080. None of the F or S series wings are back foot heavy in flight on my setup, actually very neutral in steady winds, can use just rear foot "big toe" pressure to adjust height in steady winds.

Practiced yesterday, but gusts were so front weighted, needed to get up and go into a gybe right away and I was not used to that, but getting there! Kept trying to sneak in a short run before the gybe, but was too late as gust was dropping. With winds too light, found sail got backwinded some times in gybe, that does not happen when I am reasonably powered up on the same kit.

Was on a 5.8 sail, wondering if going to a bigger sail would have given me more speed through the gybe, but right now sticking with the setup Andy trained me on, everything is the same, sail down/outhaul, boom height, harness lines, foil wing and stab. shim.

aeroegnr said..

Sandman1221 said..

aeroegnr said..

Sandman1221 said..
The whole issue of Andy needing to have both feet back on the board during the gybe may be due to when he did the his runs, the wind had dropped and within 15 min. most people (windsurfers, wingers, and windfoilers) got off the water. Lighter winds take more back foot pressure to get up on my kit, so it makes sense it would take more back foot pressure during the gybe to keep the nose up and the easiest way to do that is to move the front foot back since the Bolt has a narrow tail.

This is very similar to the issue I had with the Blast, which was good on a foil until it got to jibing. There were also the bolts sticking out above the fin boxes. I wonder if it would have been better without the rear straps at all, because that would help get in a more optimum jibing position, but I didn't want to do that as I used it for fin as well. It was still very back foot heavy for the 99 wing, not so much for the 76.

Your wing should be able to carry more speed in the jibe, which helps a lot. But really think about trim.

Took off the rear straps from the Bolt long ago. Will have to try the foiling gybe with the F770 wing, it has so much less resistance in flight than the F1080. None of the F or S series wings are back foot heavy in flight on my setup, actually very neutral in steady winds, can use just rear foot "big toe" pressure to adjust height in steady winds.

Practiced yesterday, but gusts were so front weighted, needed to get up and go into a gybe right away and I was not used to that, but getting there! Kept trying to sneak in a short run before the gybe, but was too late as gust was dropping. With winds too light, found sail got backwinded some times in gybe, that does not happen when I am reasonably powered up on the same kit.

Smaller wing -> need to carry more speed in the jibe. At slower speeds the smaller wings take more backfoot pressure. The 650/725 SB wings don't get start to get front foot heavy to me until I'm doing 20+ knots. It should be easier to jibe the bigger one unless for some reason it's located further aft than the smaller wings? I am not as familiar with those foils.

Yeah, agree, that is why I have stuck with F1080 so far, all my wings are centered the same on the foil. Could try increasing stab. shim in lighter winds, but that will create more drag so not sure if it will help.

aeroegnr said..

Sandman1221 said..

aeroegnr said..

Sandman1221 said..

aeroegnr said..

Sandman1221 said..
The whole issue of Andy needing to have both feet back on the board during the gybe may be due to when he did the his runs, the wind had dropped and within 15 min. most people (windsurfers, wingers, and windfoilers) got off the water. Lighter winds take more back foot pressure to get up on my kit, so it makes sense it would take more back foot pressure during the gybe to keep the nose up and the easiest way to do that is to move the front foot back since the Bolt has a narrow tail.

This is very similar to the issue I had with the Blast, which was good on a foil until it got to jibing. There were also the bolts sticking out above the fin boxes. I wonder if it would have been better without the rear straps at all, because that would help get in a more optimum jibing position, but I didn't want to do that as I used it for fin as well. It was still very back foot heavy for the 99 wing, not so much for the 76.

Your wing should be able to carry more speed in the jibe, which helps a lot. But really think about trim.

Took off the rear straps from the Bolt long ago. Will have to try the foiling gybe with the F770 wing, it has so much less resistance in flight than the F1080. None of the F or S series wings are back foot heavy in flight on my setup, actually very neutral in steady winds, can use just rear foot "big toe" pressure to adjust height in steady winds.

Practiced yesterday, but gusts were so front weighted, needed to get up and go into a gybe right away and I was not used to that, but getting there! Kept trying to sneak in a short run before the gybe, but was too late as gust was dropping. With winds too light, found sail got backwinded some times in gybe, that does not happen when I am reasonably powered up on the same kit.

Smaller wing -> need to carry more speed in the jibe. At slower speeds the smaller wings take more backfoot pressure. The 650/725 SB wings don't get start to get front foot heavy to me until I'm doing 20+ knots. It should be easier to jibe the bigger one unless for some reason it's located further aft than the smaller wings? I am not as familiar with those foils.

Yeah, agree, that is why I have stuck with F1080 so far, all my wings are centered the same on the foil. Could try increasing stab. shim in lighter winds, but that will create more drag so not sure if it will help.

Yes that should help a lot. It will make it more difficult to reach because it will shift you on the front foot, but that can be remedied by going more upwind/downwind before jibes. It will give you more lift in the jibe when you need it most to stay flying.

Okay, thanks, will give a try next time the winds are borderline light for the 5.8 sail. Bruno from AFS always said using both shims in light winds helped, but when I tried it it for just foiling, not gybe, extra shim on the Bolt did not help dragged narrow tail under pre-flight. But have to assume he was using a foil board. Back then I was using a 9.0 sail in the same conditions I now use a 5.8!, now I did move down to an 8.0 since back then, but jumping to 5.8 was something else, big thanks to Andy for that.

Should NOT be adjusting height with back foot in steady conditions. You'll never be able to gybe reliably with it setup like that. Need to be driving through the front foot.

segler said..
Nice thing about working on jibes in Florida is that, when I fall in 27 times, the water is warm at 75F.

It's another thing altogether on the Columbia River most of the year. August and September are ok when the temp gets up to 62F.

Ha, ya, I've been waiting for the water to warm up before I attempt duck jibing. Water is 62ish. Air temp to warm for my dry suit. Nothing motivates a clean jibe like fear of cold water

Grantmac said..
Should NOT be adjusting height with back foot in steady conditions. You'll never be able to gybe reliably with it setup like that. Need to be driving through the front foot.

That's excellent advice!

If you're learning to foil gybe I think at least half your attempts should end in breaching the foil. I often see beginners with rear foot biased setups and playing it safe which always results in a touch down.

jksmurf said..
This is a really good discussion for me, because I broke my ankle in two places back in Feb attempting a Gybe, details in a separate thread, but segler's observation is spot on, I think this is what happened to me, and my sail jammed my foot (strapless, but in shoes) onto the board, the momentum took care of the rest.

I've done thousands of windsurfing jibes in my life, but I'll admit I'm scared shi-t-less to try it again on a foil TBH.

I freefoil with a big wing 2000cm2 (NP Glide XL) and smaller sails, so my speed is pretty slow (and any swell or wave lifts the thing). I'd be grateful for any tips that would give me the courage to give it another go (like speed, carve, flip etc.).

Cheers

k.

How much do you weigh? I've only windfoiled the L - then I was just around 70 kg and it was pretty standard although not super speedy or glidey. Can you find a flatter spot to give it a few goes? Find a docile spot on a 15-20 day and I think you can give it a few goes without feeling totally freaked out the whole time. A lot of dealing with swell under foot, imho, is not looking down but keeping a laser focus on your exit - it allows your autopilot to keep you steady instead of so much having to think about it. Also, I assume you are using the 80/85cm masts? The shorter masts will absolutely require flat water for the learning phase, imho. I'm on 95s on my gear and partly because even with an 85, I'd foil out going over swell in bigger conditions.

As for tips, much of what was said above, this is what works for me: Speed is your friend - the power shuts off as you turn down wind, small arc in light conditions, big arcs more powered up, jibe in the gusts if not full powered, spot your exit through the window of the sail (don't look over the nose), bend the knees, extend front arm, open the backhand (over sheet only for like a second if at all) and really open the sail, sweep the sail across your face (make the harness lines go from one side to the other of your nose) and get it to the outside of the turn. Flipping sooner rather than later with the front hand beside the mast. Exit going somewhat downwind. And... it's okay to touch down a bit, especially on exit. No one is rating your jibes. However, the less time the board spends on the water, the less speed you'll lose.

Some of us will do a foiling step jibe, some flip the sail and then switch the feet. It's personal preference though the wider the board, the more likely you'll be doing a step. The new front foot ideally should go into the strap immediately but it's okay if it goes just behind. However, if the new front goes anywhere in front of the strap (or the strap would be), you'll touch down, guaranteed.

Sorry about your injury. I know in your world, it feels like another is just around the corner but I think you've used up your quota of freak accidents.

jksmurf said..

segler said..
Also, since others talk about moving the front footstrap back, what I don't see is anybody commenting on how the foil will tend to breach as soon as you start to rotate the sail since it loses its mast base pressure during rotation. Maybe the comment about putting the leeward foot just aft of the leeward footstrasp counteracts this.

This is a good discussion, by the way.

This is a really good discussion for me, because I broke my ankle in two places back in Feb attempting a Gybe, details in a separate thread, but segler's observation is spot on, I think this is what happened to me, and my sail jammed my foot (strapless, but in shoes) onto the board, the momentum took care of the rest.

I've done thousands of windsurfing jibes in my life, but I'll admit I'm scared shi-t-less to try it again on a foil TBH.

I freefoil with a big wing 2000cm2 (NP Glide XL) and smaller sails, so my speed is pretty slow (and any swell or wave lifts the thing). I'd be grateful for any tips that would give me the courage to give it another go (like speed, carve, flip etc.).

Cheers

k.

I think after a bad crash it's good to build up skills individually. Before trying any more flying jibes it might be a good idea to just get flying and then sheet right out and try just riding the foil for a while with no power. That'll get you used to the balance point when there's little or no mastfoot pressure which is going to happen at some point during any but the most expert jibe. Then you can try little S-Turns with no power which will get you used to steering that big wing. You may even start to feel like you can pump the wing a little.

I'm definitely no expert and only fly one jibe out of six at this point, and I have better success on my 1250 wing than my 2000, but the 2000 does offer a lot of low speed float. I bet yours is similar. Both are fun to fool around with without power.