Is Speed sailing Better than Wavesailing?

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nebbian
nebbian
WA
6277 posts
WA, 6277 posts
8 Mar 2007 11:10am
Easy! Dead calm day, me pumping the sail just to get moving.

My speed: 1 knot.
Wind speed: 0 knots.

1/0 = infinity!
hardie
hardie
WA
4133 posts
WA, 4133 posts
8 Mar 2007 11:15am
There's something about the laws of physics, that means, the windier it is, the lower the efficiency ratio. Have done 28 knots in 15 knots of wind.

You have to compare gear, water state, currents, wind strength, wind density, fins, boards, sails, mast, boom, volume of board, rider weight, skill level, that I think is the fairest comparison.

If you are really serious about speed, then gpsspeedsailing.com, id the site to become invloved in. We can put up a Speed sailing thread here just for fun though.
mathew
mathew
QLD
2173 posts
QLD, 2173 posts
8 Mar 2007 12:37pm
yep - the lighter the wind, the bigger the sail that you can hold -> so your efficiency goes up. Using formula gear, you can do about 25 knots in 10 knots of wind.
firiebob
firiebob
WA
3182 posts
WA, 3182 posts
8 Mar 2007 12:23pm
Hi Hardie, thanks for answering my post mate.

I don't have a GPS yet, so I haven't a clue what speed I might wring out of my gear. Yeh I thought 35 knots would be up there, and maybe a dream
I also know there will be a diminishing return the faster we go.

I was surprised one of our local guys not known for his speed (sorry Greg), got 30 knots on his first and only GPS run, before heading south for holidays. I'll tell him his Garman is f**ked

Anyway, this will just be some fun between us FNQ guys, and now we have a target to chase

Wineman
Wineman
NSW
1412 posts
NSW, 1412 posts
8 Mar 2007 2:24pm
quote:
Originally posted by hardie

You have to compare gear, water state, currents, wind strength, wind density, fins, boards, sails, mast, boom, volume of board, rider weight, skill level, that I think is the fairest comparison.

We can put up a Speed sailing thread here just for fun though.



OK hardie man.
Lets have a speed thread - easy...GPS

But let's also have a speed effiency thread - much hardie, I mean harder.

We need a mathematical genius to come up with a formula employing the K.I.S.S. principle.......
otherwise we'll finish up something like the Duckworth/Lewis formula they use in 1 day cricket that even Stephen Hawking can't work out!!

Variants - simple
1. Board volume
2. Sail size
3. Rider weight
4. Wind speed (aver/gust)

Variants - complex (& thus should be ignored)
currents, wind density, fins, mast, boom, skill level, sail type, board type, board (& rider) vintage + others..
These are open to subjective assessment - way too difficult.

The beauty is, it opens it up for more to get involved - not just those at the top end of ability/$$$$/gear/experience.

Who can come up with a "trial" formula - that can be modified/updated as we go???

firiebob
firiebob
WA
3182 posts
WA, 3182 posts
8 Mar 2007 12:41pm
Don't make it too hard Wineman, I only got 10 toes to count with

Maybe just post your speed, the wind and your gear, and let the punters work out if it's good enough

I haven't even got a GPS yet
Leech
Leech
WA
1933 posts
WA, 1933 posts
8 Mar 2007 12:54pm
a better ratio would be speed/$ value of equipment
ka43
ka43
NSW
3105 posts
NSW, 3105 posts
8 Mar 2007 2:57pm
Ill be the wind dummy
Last Saturday in really light winds but very flat water I hit 26 knots in wind speed estimated at between 10 to 13 knots.
gear was Falcon 111, 8.5 Neutron with 44cm Curtis fin.
Throw some ribbon weed in so i was pretty pleased to get that high.

I think most guys would be very surprised to see their top speeds on all sorts of gear with a GPS.
You think you are flying but then see about 25 knots. Im probably going out on a limb here but I think most sailors are pushing 25-27 knots unless on specilaised slalom or speed gear. Places like Sandy Pt are exceptional. Anything over 30 knots in real world conditions is to be respected.
My 2 cents worth
elmo
elmo
WA
8895 posts
WA, 8895 posts
8 Mar 2007 1:39pm
The wind is swinging
The wind is swinging
+15 knots and another 90º please
NotWal
NotWal
QLD
7436 posts
QLD, 7436 posts
8 Mar 2007 3:08pm
Here's one for Heisenberg. How can you know the true wind speed at any particular moment while you are sailing.
firiebob
firiebob
WA
3182 posts
WA, 3182 posts
8 Mar 2007 2:39pm
Thanks ka43, this sort of info helps us in the backwaters.

For interest, because like Hardie, you have an idea of what's required, what's your best speed.
I think Hardies 35.3 is a good real world effort.

The word is GPS speedsailing is taking off in Aus, but we never see speeds posted here, so Hardies idea of a thread might be a good one ?
I do check gpsspeedsailing.com, but only see our top guns there. Hardies thread might work for the rest of us
Ian K
Ian K
WA
4170 posts
WA, 4170 posts
8 Mar 2007 2:47pm
Well I suppose that's right, as soon as you launch you alter the wind that would otherwise be there? And then the wind at the top of the sail is different to that at the bottom, and by how much depends on how rough the water is. I'm pretty confident those gps's are spot on 99% of the time, but the efficiency ratio would be hard to determine acurately .
ka43
ka43
NSW
3105 posts
NSW, 3105 posts
8 Mar 2007 5:18pm
Hey Firie,
I just think most wind strengths and speeds are over estimated. Without a GPS its just guesswork. With the same board and a 7.6 I can consistently get over 30. On a 6.6 I have hit 32 but I think amount of board in water has me peaked.
On a high wind slalom/6.6 Ive hit 34.9 but this time it was too much sail. All these speeds, like Hardies very quick 35.3, are in real world conditions with chop, gusty winds etc.
From what I can gather most of the speeds on GPS Speedsailing are done on pretty flat water and good wind. Im sure guys like Elmo can give us the rundown on the WA spots. Some of the sites OS are specialised speed spots but nothing like Sandy Pt. It has to be sailed to be believed
Plus a lot of these sailors have extremely specialised speed gear.
Given a sail at a top flat water spot with consistent wind Im pretty sure I can go quicker but in the end its the adrenalin buzz thats the most important part, a natural high that afterwards beer turns into a special place
Wineman
Wineman
NSW
1412 posts
NSW, 1412 posts
8 Mar 2007 6:06pm
Let's try this as a starting point.....
In theory,
likely most efficient wind speed (average)- 15 knots
median board vol - 150 lt
median sail size - 7.0 m
median rider wgt - 80 kg

my random adjustment % for variation from median

Variants - simple
1. Board volume......for every 10lt over -1%, under +1%
2. Sail size.........for every 0.5m over -5%, under +5%
3. Rider weight......for every 5kg over +1%, under -1%
4. Wind speed (aver/measured at launch pt)
...........for every 2knt vary from 15knt +1% (cutoff 10 knt & 25knt)

Soooo...
if KA43 is on 111 lt board(+4%), 8.5 m sail(-15%), say 80kg(0%), wind 13knt(+2%)....Total (-9%)

If KA43 had max 26 knt, then say aver 20knt on run..
Speed Efficiency = 20/13x0.91 = 1.40

mmmmmmmmm...needs some work..but it's a start
Ian K
Ian K
WA
4170 posts
WA, 4170 posts
8 Mar 2007 4:31pm
Well big speeds are possible at Sandy point but don't underestimate the skill of the locals down there. I'd hit 35 once or twice in real world conditions (Gerroa) and went down there to find I couldn't go any faster.

In the real world you can adjust your angle to suit the gusts and how you are feeling, down there it's flat for only about 10 metres off the bank. Further out it gets very uncomfortable, short sharp chop. So you're locked into a tunnel, maybe more like the barrel of a cannon, which requires a very different sailing style.

And at the end of the course, going top speed, you can't just swerve upwind to slow down. And it's not exactly flat down there, the board wants to take off on the rolling chop. All you can do is sheet out, release mast foot pressure, hope it all holds together until you get back down to a sensible speed, all at 30 something knots, the good blokes are doing the same at 40 something knots. It's pretty scary.

It's a challenge it takes a lot of skill to get the most out of Sandy point. I'll try again to better 35 next october.



ka43
ka43
NSW
3105 posts
NSW, 3105 posts
8 Mar 2007 6:37pm
Wineman, Im 90kgs before beer
Im pretty hopeless at estimating wind speed but all I know was it was bloody light and very short runs. Just to get wet basically and to see what sort of efficiency I could get. I dont understand your theory or calculations so Im just sticking with double windspeed
everyone knows that to go really fast you have to have lots of wind, eg/ Finian doing 48.7 in gusts of 50-60 knots.
You look at the efficiency of someone like Chris Lockwood, hes not a big bloke but is usually in the top 5. besides raw strength,size and Jatz crackers the size of watermelons like Finian he is smooth (Ive never seen the guy sail but from posts on GPS its obvious).
Just hanging onto the biggest sail possible is not the go anymore, its efficiency.
hey Elmo, can you give us some of your experience on this??
king of the point
king of the point
WA
1836 posts
WA, 1836 posts
8 Mar 2007 4:46pm

AND OR EITHER Long as u have got flat smooth water.
elmo
elmo
WA
8895 posts
WA, 8895 posts
8 Mar 2007 4:57pm
quote:
Originally posted by ka43

Wineman, Im 90kgs before beer
Im pretty hopeless at estimating wind speed but all I know was it was bloody light and very short runs. Just to get wet basically and to see what sort of efficiency I could get. I dont understand your theory or calculations so Im just sticking with double windspeed
everyone knows that to go really fast you have to have lots of wind, eg/ Finian doing 48.7 in gusts of 50-60 knots.
You look at the efficiency of someone like Chris Lockwood, hes not a big bloke but is usually in the top 5. besides raw strength,size and Jatz crackers the size of watermelons like Finian he is smooth (Ive never seen the guy sail but from posts on GPS its obvious).
Just hanging onto the biggest sail possible is not the go anymore, its efficiency.
hey Elmo, can you give us some of your experience on this??



I'm sorry, I normally go the "Tim the Toolman" approach, although my last quick session was on a 4.9 supersonic. I plan to try the smaller gear a bit more regularly.

I think half the reason why Chris and the Perth crew go so well (besides the huge hours which they put in) is because generally they sail on what is best to be described as a motocross track. When they get an opportunity of some flatish water they can then blitz.

The last Cervantes Fun day, it was awe inspiring watching Chris chase Robbi Radis's best speed over 1 foot chop doing mid 60's with the fin let alone the board barely touching the water, all this with a smile you could easily see from the shore.

The best bet if you want to go quicker is to go the GPS route. It allows you to objectively test and tune whilst you are sailing, all the small tweaks add up to some sizable improvements.

A good rule of thumb is:

If you feel like you are going 100mph you generally won't. When you feel comfortable you will go quicker.
hardie
hardie
WA
4133 posts
WA, 4133 posts
8 Mar 2007 5:23pm
Great to see this thread has generated some interest!!!!!!!!!

I'm not the only one with AJD......... Adrenalin Junkie Disorder.

Re Wind strengths Q. I have a wind meter that I use every time I sail, and by observing conditions and wind strengths you get very accurate at geussing.

Re sailing fast, another issue is getting used to it. When you start sailing really fast, it can take your muscle memory and response a time to adjust, it's not like you can be peaking 25 knots all your life then in the same conditions pull out a 40, you have to build to it.

Great thread, yes I agree we start a speedsailing thread, keep posting ideas, who knows we may even have a fun competition with maybe my Sponsor Windwarrior coming to the party!!!!!!
firiebob
firiebob
WA
3182 posts
WA, 3182 posts
8 Mar 2007 6:18pm
I agree ka43, just guessing your speed suxs, that's why I want a GPS now. Sorts the bull** out, too easy to think your a gun, when you only sail with your mates. I'm not expecting miracles, don't have the right gear.

By coincidence ka43, the photo to the right of your comment to me, is one I posted of Green Island Now imagine this place when the tide drops far enough the reef gets exposed, you get long narrow channels of dead flat water. If the wind is from the right direction there is no stopping you, and even though it's FNQ, it can howl there. I don't have any small gear for the extreme days anymore, but should be fun in moderate wind.

If I don't post after getting a GPS, it means I found out I sail like a Nana
mkseven
mkseven
QLD
2315 posts
QLD, 2315 posts
8 Mar 2007 8:49pm
firiebob, check out windsurfing qld site. They have a rankings for the year based on board width and also a once a month queensland wide gps comp. Since the majority sail on moreton bay we dont have very high speeds due to the messed up water state and non existant winds, the great thing with speed is you dont need the latest gear to go fast.
Troppo
Troppo
WA
887 posts
WA, 887 posts
8 Mar 2007 8:15pm
hurry up and buy a gps bob so i can borrow it.

ohh yeah you do sail like a nana!

yeah green blows got 40 knots there last week. watch out for bombies tho!!
kato
kato
VIC
3531 posts
VIC, 3531 posts
8 Mar 2007 11:27pm
Its interesting to look at the speed v wind ratios. 35kt in chop is scary but at Sandy Point just an easy walk.Having flat water is the key.Looking back at some old times, my best ratios are with a 7.0 on a kids pro with 8 to 15k in small chop. Sandy Point in high wind the ratios are worst.Inverloch with a 7 ,30.2 in 15-20k=2.01 Sandy Point on a speed board with a 5.0 ,39.96 in 20-30= 1.33 Now if I can just swap the ratios around. Any ideas????
Harrow
Harrow
NSW
4521 posts
NSW, 4521 posts
8 Mar 2007 11:36pm
How are you guys defining your speed? Are you using 2 second peak readings, 10 second peaks, or what?

The GPS speed sailing web-site average of five runs over 400m, or whatever it is, is a bit too complicated for the casual free-rider, but just the same it would be nice to compare apples with apples, also I don't want to think I cracked 30, when everyone knows a 1 second average could be subject to a large error.

So I'm wondering, what is the consensus for a reliable reading?
Wineman
Wineman
NSW
1412 posts
NSW, 1412 posts
8 Mar 2007 11:38pm
quote:
Originally posted by kato

Its interesting to look at the speed v wind ratios. 35kt in chop is scary but at Sandy Point just an easy walk.Having flat water is the key.Looking back at some old times, my best ratios are with a 7.0 on a kids pro with 8 to 15k in small chop. Sandy Point in high wind the ratios are worst.Inverloch with a 7 ,30.2 in 15-20k=2.01 Sandy Point on a speed board with a 5.0 ,39.96 in 20-30= 1.33 Now if I can just swap the ratios around. Any ideas????



YES. You'll need to change the laws of physics
bubs
bubs
SA
924 posts
SA, 924 posts
8 Mar 2007 11:12pm
quote:
Let's try this as a starting point.....
In theory,
likely most efficient wind speed (average)- 15 knots
median board vol - 150 lt
median sail size - 7.0 m
median rider wgt - 80 kg

my random adjustment % for variation from median

Variants - simple
1. Board volume......for every 10lt over -1%, under +1%
2. Sail size.........for every 0.5m over -5%, under +5%
3. Rider weight......for every 5kg over +1%, under -1%
4. Wind speed (aver/measured at launch pt)
...........for every 2knt vary from 15knt +1% (cutoff 10 knt & 25knt)

Soooo...
if KA43 is on 111 lt board(+4%), 8.5 m sail(-15%), say 80kg(0%), wind 13knt(+2%)....Total (-9%)

If KA43 had max 26 knt, then say aver 20knt on run..
Speed Efficiency = 20/13x0.91 = 1.40

mmmmmmmmm...needs some work..but it's a start




What about age? thats got to be a factor . Don't know how to work it out though. Leave that to the experts but i think it should be there.

Bubs
mineral1
mineral1
WA
4564 posts
WA, 4564 posts
8 Mar 2007 9:50pm
quote:
Originally posted by Troppo

hurry up and buy a gps bob so i can borrow it.

ohh yeah you do sail like a nana!




Troppo, thank goodness. LMHO. For a while I was beginning to think "bloody hell, its all gone serious" and you managed to bring a bit of mirth back into discussion
Wineman
Wineman
NSW
1412 posts
NSW, 1412 posts
8 Mar 2007 11:50pm
quote:
Originally posted by Harrow

How are you guys defining your speed? Are you using 2 second peak readings, 10 second peaks, or what?

The GPS speed sailing web-site average of five runs over 400m, or whatever it is, is a bit too complicated for the casual free-rider, but just the same it would be nice to compare apples with apples, also I don't want to think I cracked 30, when everyone knows a 1 second average could be subject to a large error.

So I'm wondering, what is the consensus for a reliable reading?



agree paul, has to be over at least 200m = 15 sec at 50kph (28knt) or = 20 sec at 38kph(20knt).
At least it would work for forum comparisons, then work up to 400m.

Peaks don't mean much, in reality - but certainly sound good over a beer or three
firiebob
firiebob
WA
3182 posts
WA, 3182 posts
8 Mar 2007 10:14pm
Hey Troppo, just cos I love your Mumma, doesn't mean I'm your Nana

You can borrow GPS anytime, I'll make sure it's got slowmo mode
kato
kato
VIC
3531 posts
VIC, 3531 posts
9 Mar 2007 12:16am
All my speeds are an ave using gps speedsurfing method which is the average of 5,10sec runs. It reduces any GPS errors and avoids the "lucky gust" problem. All P.B Speeds are checked by an independant person. It seems to work and its great fun.
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