The difference to start to fly between the 800 and the 625 is pretty small but I would say the main point (with my weight 74kg at least) is that there are some moments that wind drop or no wave that you can pump at low speed with your legs with the 800 without any problem. With the 625 is not the case. You need to keep going pumping with the wing. So you use more energy, it's not a flow ride in this light conditions if it makes sens.
I would say the 625 is between the ha525 and the MA800 about stall speed but easier to ride than a HA.I need to try the 625 with waves to say more but I will have to wait for that.
I tried the stab 180 with the 625 and the 800 I know better. I didn't like it so much. usually I am looking for stab around 180/190cm2 but I prefer the 205 that is more surf, more for carving. Also I use only the 50cm fuse so the 205 give a better pitch stability. I didn't stay too long with the 180 but I would say compare to the 205 is there is a bit more of glide but only when we have speed. With light conditions the difference is minimal. But carving, pitch stability, ease is clearly better the 205. (I used +1 shim. Red). Compare to the 195 the 180 has more front foot so we have to move back a bit the mast. Pitch stability is better with the 180 if I remember well the 195 feeling.Maybe spending more time with the 180 I could appreciate it better but my feeling was that it was more intended for downwind or race. if this feedbacks can help.

Sonsaleta said..
The difference to start to fly between the 800 and the 625 is pretty small but I would say the main point (with my weight 74kg at least) is that there are some moments that wind drop or no wave that you can pump at low speed with your legs with the 800 without any problem. With the 625 is not the case. You need to keep going pumping with the wing. So you use more energy, it's not a flow ride in this light conditions if it makes sens.
I would say the 625 is between the ha525 and the MA800 about stall speed but easier to ride than a HA.I need to try the 625 with waves to say more but I will have to wait for that.
I tried the stab 180 with the 625 and the 800 I know better. I didn't like it so much. usually I am looking for stab around 180/190cm2 but I prefer the 205 that is more surf, more for carving. Also I use only the 50cm fuse so the 205 give a better pitch stability. I didn't stay too long with the 180 but I would say compare to the 205 is there is a bit more of glide but only when we have speed. With light conditions the difference is minimal. But carving, pitch stability, ease is clearly better the 205. (I used +1 shim. Red). Compare to the 195 the 180 has more front foot so we have to move back a bit the mast. Pitch stability is better with the 180 if I remember well the 195 feeling.Maybe spending more time with the 180 I could appreciate it better but my feeling was that it was more intended for downwind or race. if this feedbacks can help.

You are winging right above?
Makes sense then. Even Antman uses a 60 fuse now when winging. so 50 yloud want more pitch stability. Only uses 50 for Prone and tow (where the 205
comss out).
other than that . weve been using 195 waiting for the 180 , will report back.

Thanks to all for the feedback on the 180. I stopped using the 195 after getting the 205. The wind dropped here on Maui today so had to switch from my 800/205 to 925/205 (one red shim for both and both with the 60 fuse)--it was the first time that I paired the 925 with the 205. It definitely helped to loosen up the 925, as well making it much more pitch stable. It was a lot easier to make tight Heineken jibes and tacks without getting any of the tracking and sometimes unanticipated wobble that I used to get with the 195.

Oahu: I'm really interested to read that the 180 is even more pitch-stable than the 205. Curious to see your feedback on how it pairs with the 1000. I've been considering getting the 1000 for light-wind but the 925 is still my outright sessions saver... also curious to see what effect the 140 would have with the 800 or 925 or 725.

radair said..
I did a back to back comparison of the 195 with 205 tails wake foiling and flat water pumping behind my boat. The 205 turns beautifully but was noticeably slower and draggier. It probably would not be too obvious when winging. I like testing behind the boat as a wing will pull you through turns, etc and mask the feels compared to having no external forces. I have a 220 on order for DW and dock starts and will probably have to get the 180 based on all your raving, dammit. I'm still loving the 195, so much so that I returned the 205.

I've also done a direct comparison of the MA1000 to a slightly clipped HA925. The 925 was a little looser and faster but also less stable in chop and turbulence. The deciding factor for me is the breach resistance of the 1000. It is mind blowing how you can do a full flat breach and the foil will just drop down a bit and let you keep going. For that reason my 925 is up for sale.

Radair agree with your observations. Im actually not a fan at all of the 205 - for winging, surfing. Towing at high speeds - big swell it has its place with the smaller Ma.

what mast are you basing your 925 / 1000 comparisons. ?? 1000 is a great winging wing.

radair said..
Using the 795 mast for winging and old 72 cm for wake and prone. Proning on the 1225 for our small east coast US waves. For winging the 1000 is a fantastic foil in waves and I'm sure the 800 would be killer in big conditions.

Ah so using the old mast proning. Id think twice about selling your 925 . try and prone it on your 795 mast. Ive actually re bought a 925 and an 1125!! After selling them before the new mast was on the horizon lol.


just wakefoiled behind the ski with the 180 / 205
tail and the 800ma / 725 ha on the new 725 Performance mast.

bottom line - if ya like the 195 - get the 180 !!!!!

will write more later.

You asked for it ..



Wake foiling 180 Speed Tail with 725 Performance Mast.

Antman came back from NZ raving about this 180 speed tail.


Ive always liked comparing gear behind a boat/ski as water/speed variables can be kept constant. Also, you get plenty of carving time on a specific foil set up, to get a reasonable comparative idea. Zero wind, glassy flat conditions.


800MA / 725 HA fronts205 Flow / 180 Speed Tails50 Fuse - blue shim 725 Performance Mast WKT 109


Antman and I have spent considerable time using the 725HA / 195 tail combo towing flat and waves - and recently 800MA / 205 combo in waves. The former was awesome but quite technical pitch wise - also sometimes giving out on harder fast carves. Was made much better with new masts - but 800ma/205 in big towing waves quickly replaced it. 800MA /195 also was too pitch unstable as well.


Well the 180 has solved both pitch and carve issues. In fact it was hard to seperate the 800ma / 205 with the 725/180 - stability and carve wise. If anything, one could push the carve harder - well sharper, on the 725HA because of its inherent speed, thinner tips etc etc.


Also the good news is the 180 works really well with the 800ma as well.


The 725HA / 180 speed gave a ton more height and pop for my son than the 800/180 or 800/205. He was also landing the 725 Ha much easier on the handle passes etc. But again that could be a front wing extra Surface area difference and these MA wings can bounce you off the surface at times.


The 800MA / 205 combo probably allowed more "easily accessible " carving (than 725HA/180). probably because the 205 tail is considerably slower and the basic fact that the 725HA is a far more technical wing overall. But the 725 is such a dynamic wing, 180 works brilliantly with it and for those wanting speed and carve this wins easily.


An good insight into the stability of this 180 speed; when starting in the water for the average idiot like me, the 725HA / 195 was always a challenge pitch wise, until settled and going. This was not an issue with the 180.


Another is going from left to right over the wake - the 195 can be a little"Jittery" (probably the flex in the wing). The 180 was like the 205 . no instability in the white water whatsoever! Change in design, camber,Profile - using the migh modulus stiffer carbon contribute probably.


Obviously all of these observations are within the context of the new 725 performance mast. (Although previousComparisons are made with the new 795 mast so not a huge difference really). It still surprises me even now how these new masts have increased the good aspects of the HA wings and drastically reduced the negative aspect. Such a significant change!!


The 725 performance mast is a weapon for wake foiling me thinks. I also think it will be a prone - surfing weapon in the right hands. I was pumping the 725HA / 180 (letting go of the ski rope) for as long as my fitness allowed on the flat. And i hate pumping with straps. Never once stalled out on me. Power and stability on tap!! Nohing wrong with the pumpability of the 180 tail combined with HA speed and glide thats for sure.



And all of this makes me extrapolate comfortabley to the very high possibility that the 625ma is gonna be a fn towing weapon!!! The dynamic sharp turning and pop of the 725HA with the grace and ease carve / breach use of the 800MA.


Then add say the 140 dart ; OMFG!!


The good news is the 180 works with both the HA and the MA wings. I cant say the same thing about the flow tails and the HA range.


Bottom line is if you like the speed, pump and dynamic nature of the 195 tail - then the speed tails are aConsiderable evolution for both MA / HA foils.
If you want to slow things down - make life a little easier - then the 205/235 is the answer with the MA wings.


Need to obviously test the 180 in the surf / wing etc. First impressions are good.


I asked antman what he thought aboit the 180 tail. He said "itsThe best tail by far, sick".


Soz, but he doesnt dribble like his old man.

paulweller2 said..
Oahu: I'm really interested to read that the 180 is even more pitch-stable than the 205. Curious to see your feedback on how it pairs with the 1000. I've been considering getting the 1000 for light-wind but the 925 is still my outright sessions saver... also curious to see what effect the 140 would have with the 800 or 925 or 725.

Aloha PW, to clarify... Overall, the 205 is definitely more pitch stable and more rail to rail (carving) responsive than the 180. However, once you cross over 20mph (GPS) the 180 starts to really shine and make higher speed more pitch stable. I find the MA800/205 combo to become less pitch stable at the highest end of speed. I've never experienced this with the 205 as a problem in surf, but when playing around in flats trying to see how fast I go I can feel the drag of the 205 and have to pay more attention to pitch.

In a nutshell, the 180 makes high speed runs more manageable.

Separately, I've been riding the Cabrinha Apex wings lately and they are FAST. The difference from prior wings I've tried feels like a high aspect versus a mid aspect foil. All my peak and average speeds have gone up by 2mph on the MA1000 and MA800 since making the switch. Because of this, I find I'm hitting the drag wall on the MA foils more often than I was on my V3 Reedin wings (great wings just not as fast at top end as the Apex).

I'm 99% going after surf and the 205 is just stellar when it comes to sub 20mph stability and carving. The 180 gives a little more acceleration back and less drag at the top end.

The wind was next to nothing yesterday but may be right for the MA1000 tomorrow. There should also be a chest to head high ENE swell this week so I can let you know how all that goes later this week.

Got out with the MA1000 and 180 today. 5M wing, 10-15 knots of wind. While there's nothing bad about it, I prefer the 1000 with the 205. With the 205, not only is the 1000 more surfy, it also gets up on foil much easier. Since, the 1000 is my light wind session saver, I will likely stick with the 1000/205 combo.

When it comes to the 800, I can see using the 180 on smaller days with solid wind or when I'm trying to push speed.

kiwiupover said..
Hi - looking for tuning/setup tips for the MA1225 with 235 tail & 935 mast. I've been out 4-5 times and i haven't clicked with it yet. I've only used the 1550v2 and 2400 foils before, and I'm 'intermediate-ish', so it's probably my skill level and needing more time with a higher performance foil. Any suggestions welcome!

I'm using the 1550v2 as my main foil with the 235 tail and love the combination compared to the 232 tail. Has more front foot pressure and feels faster and more solid in turns compared to the 232. Using the mast at 7.5 on the FG board.

With the MA1225 i've moved the mast forward from 7.5 to 9 on the FG board and i think that feels good, but i'm missing that solid front foot pressure i discovered with the 1550, and it feels more pitchy and sensitive compared to the 1550.

A couple of ideas - try it with the 232 tail, or the 235 tail with a negative shim, or go further forward with the mast? Or should I just give the new setup some more time?

Yeh more time for sure - if you havent used the HA range - from a 1550 it will be very different.
and dont be shy about jamming that 1225 even further forward until you hit the lift wall. Bring it back ever so slightly.
or .. Leave it there and red shim the 235.


ps more Front foot pressure (perspectivr) will also come if you ride the thing faster and turn harder.

patronus said..

Oahuwaterwalker said..

.......Separately, I did find that 180 was noticeably more pitch stable than either the 195 or 205 when trying to do all out speed runs. The 205 starts to go nose down a little when you get up around 21-22mph.......

Interesting, do you shim 205 and other stabs?

Single red shim on both. To be clear, the "nose down" isn't very bad, it's just that the 180 is more stable at higher speed. I'll be the 180 could make the 525 a bit easier to ride.

Oahuwaterwalker said..

paulweller2 said..
Oahu: I'm really interested to read that the 180 is even more pitch-stable than the 205. Curious to see your feedback on how it pairs with the 1000. I've been considering getting the 1000 for light-wind but the 925 is still my outright sessions saver... also curious to see what effect the 140 would have with the 800 or 925 or 725.

Aloha PW, to clarify... Overall, the 205 is definitely more pitch stable and more rail to rail (carving) responsive than the 180. However, once you cross over 20mph (GPS) the 180 starts to really shine and make higher speed more pitch stable. I find the MA800/205 combo to become less pitch stable at the highest end of speed. I've never experienced this with the 205 as a problem in surf, but when playing around in flats trying to see how fast I go I can feel the drag of the 205 and have to pay more attention to pitch.

In a nutshell, the 180 makes high speed runs more manageable.

Separately, I've been riding the Cabrinha Apex wings lately and they are FAST. The difference from prior wings I've tried feels like a high aspect versus a mid aspect foil. All my peak and average speeds have gone up by 2mph on the MA1000 and MA800 since making the switch. Because of this, I find I'm hitting the drag wall on the MA foils more often than I was on my V3 Reedin wings (great wings just not as fast at top end as the Apex).

I'm 99% going after surf and the 205 is just stellar when it comes to sub 20mph stability and carving. The 180 gives a little more acceleration back and less drag at the top end.

The wind was next to nothing yesterday but may be right for the MA1000 tomorrow. There should also be a chest to head high ENE swell this week so I can let you know how all that goes later this week.

Aloha Oahu, thanks for the clarification. I'll be receiving my 180 soon--you've sold me. I was planning to sell my 725 since I've been having so much fun with the 800 but I think I'll reconsider. I think I'll definitely hit new top speeds with the 725/180. Swell is marginal now so my time will be consumed by speed runs, new tricks, and... jumping.

I've tried the Apex wing from one of the team riders here on Maui! It's an incredible thing but I'd like to be able to keep (the rest of) my organs. I've been waiting for the new Armstrong wing--getting my 4.6 soon. I've been dabbling with a few sizes of the new Strike V3. The upwind is fantastic but I think the decision to marginally stiffen the handles is probably limiting its full potential. Appreciate the input as always.

kiwiupover said..

eppo said..

kiwiupover said..
Hi - looking for tuning/setup tips for the MA1225 with 235 tail & 935 mast. I've been out 4-5 times and i haven't clicked with it yet. I've only used the 1550v2 and 2400 foils before, and I'm 'intermediate-ish', so it's probably my skill level and needing more time with a higher performance foil. Any suggestions welcome!

I'm using the 1550v2 as my main foil with the 235 tail and love the combination compared to the 232 tail. Has more front foot pressure and feels faster and more solid in turns compared to the 232. Using the mast at 7.5 on the FG board.

With the MA1225 i've moved the mast forward from 7.5 to 9 on the FG board and i think that feels good, but i'm missing that solid front foot pressure i discovered with the 1550, and it feels more pitchy and sensitive compared to the 1550.

A couple of ideas - try it with the 232 tail, or the 235 tail with a negative shim, or go further forward with the mast? Or should I just give the new setup some more time?

Yeh more time for sure - if you havent used the HA range - from a 1550 it will be very different.
and dont be shy about jamming that 1225 even further forward until you hit the lift wall. Bring it back ever so slightly.
or .. Leave it there and red shim the 235.

ps more Front foot pressure (perspectivr) will also come if you ride the thing faster and turn harder.

Thanks boss! I might take it to 11 :-)

And I know i can get more pro-active at driving the foil... it's a good reminder to lift my game!

10 and 10.5 were both good with the MA1225 (coming from 7.5 with the 1550v2).
I think that's doing the trick! Thanks!

Another try with the MA625 but this time with a bit more wind 15-17 knots (fuse50, ma205, shim+1). It goes quicker than the MA800. Once you get used the tacks are not so tough as the 525. You can drop a bit the speed and it still flying. on flat water the one who likes speed can use to have fun. For wave riding we need I think more 1,5 m level at least to really enjoy this wing more than the 800 because the glide is not as good as this one. So we need more push. But I can not affirm it at 100% because we have no wave at this season. For example I was not able to tack with handle pass (with the wing in my back). The time of glide is too short to do it.

Sonsaleta said..
Another try with the MA625 but this time with a bit more wind 15-17 knots (fuse50, ma205, shim+1). It goes quicker than the MA800. Once you get used the tacks are not so tough as the 525. You can drop a bit the speed and it still flying. on flat water the one who likes speed can use to have fun. For wave riding we need I think more 1,5 m level at least to really enjoy this wing more than the 800 because the glide is not as good as this one. So we need more push. But I can not affirm it at 100% because we have no wave at this season. For example I was not able to tack with handle pass (with the wing in my back). The time of glide is too short to do it.

Thanks for the update. What is your weight?

MidAtlanticFoil said..

Sonsaleta said..
Another try with the MA625 but this time with a bit more wind 15-17 knots (fuse50, ma205, shim+1). It goes quicker than the MA800. Once you get used the tacks are not so tough as the 525. You can drop a bit the speed and it still flying. on flat water the one who likes speed can use to have fun. For wave riding we need I think more 1,5 m level at least to really enjoy this wing more than the 800 because the glide is not as good as this one. So we need more push. But I can not affirm it at 100% because we have no wave at this season. For example I was not able to tack with handle pass (with the wing in my back). The time of glide is too short to do it.

Thanks for the update. What is your weight?

74kg