Oahuwaterwalker said..

eppo said..

WingOut said..

eppo said..
I think there is plenty of feedback on these MA front foils now.. What i would like to hear is some more in depth expwrience with these new tails... i had a very average (like well below even crap) prone on the 205 today and MA 1000.. To crap condtions to conclude anything but .. Kind of . meh.?

could you clarify that a bit?

205, 235 MA tails. How are peeps finding these tails compared to say the 195. Lots on facebook, not much here on them.

I had another session today on the MA800 and 205. This time the conditions were really good. Slightly overhead surf that was walling up.

Key take aways:
- The 205 definitely improves the pitch stability.
- It helps the 800 to get on foil in about the same amount of wind that the 725/195 combo required (I was finding the 800 took about 2 more knots of wind to get going which really matters on the low end).
- The over all glide of the 800 is improved with the 205.
- The 205 turns feels more responsive rail to rail than the 195 and accelerates during the turns.

We have a lot of wind and waves this week. Looking like 25-30 knots by Thursday/Friday and possibly double overhead swell. I plan to try the 205 with the 725 and 525 this week. My understanding is that the 205 is +1.5 where the 195 and other tails are +1. After I've compared the different foils with no shim, I'll start playing around with the shims. I think I'll be able to understand what the 205 is doing better after trying it with the 725 and 525. Where I'm still figuring out what the 800 does, I know those foils really well so I should be able to discern what the tail is contributing verses the front foil.

Separately, my peak speeds with the 800 are 4-6 kph slower than with my 725. This doesn't really matter once on a wave, but I find I can chase down and overtake a wave easier with the 725. The 800 isn't slow, but its definitely not as fast as the 725.

I think you're right that's because of the higher offset of the MA front wing and tail: 1.5 + 1.5 = 3 deg. offset. That's more than with the HAs. I would shim it in the same angle and try again . Unfortunately are my new foils actually in a container on the way from China till Europe

Shim or no shim when towing into sizeable waves with the 93/800/70/205 ? Previously I have been using the 625/195 tail. But keen to try the 800 on the incoming swell. 205 or 195 tail ?

I have the new 935 performance mast and the MA1225 wing with a 232 tail. My mast is all the way forward in my SMIK board but it is still too back-foot heavy. I tried an Axis setup and it was the complete opposite - mast needed to be way back or there was too much front foot pressure. I am now tempted to move to Axis because it appears to suit the SMIK better (i.e. I can move the Axis back but can't move the Armstrong any further forward).

1. Would one of the new MA tails give me more front-foot pressure
2. Has anyone come from Axis and in what ways are they different/better/worse than Armstrong (acknowledging that all brands have their pro's and cons and some may be better suited for certain boards).
3. Perhaps I should get a new SMIK board with a foil track that is further forward? (this appears to be the trend now)

Thanks

Oahuwaterwalker said..

eppo said..

WingOut said..

eppo said..
I think there is plenty of feedback on these MA front foils now.. What i would like to hear is some more in depth expwrience with these new tails... i had a very average (like well below even crap) prone on the 205 today and MA 1000.. To crap condtions to conclude anything but .. Kind of . meh.?

could you clarify that a bit?

205, 235 MA tails. How are peeps finding these tails compared to say the 195. Lots on facebook, not much here on them.

I had another session today on the MA800 and 205. This time the conditions were really good. Slightly overhead surf that was walling up.

Key take aways:
- The 205 definitely improves the pitch stability.
- It helps the 800 to get on foil in about the same amount of wind that the 725/195 combo required (I was finding the 800 took about 2 more knots of wind to get going which really matters on the low end).
- The over all glide of the 800 is improved with the 205.
- The 205 turns feels more responsive rail to rail than the 195 and accelerates during the turns.

We have a lot of wind and waves this week. Looking like 25-30 knots by Thursday/Friday and possibly double overhead swell. I plan to try the 205 with the 725 and 525 this week. My understanding is that the 205 is +1.5 where the 195 and other tails are +1. After I've compared the different foils with no shim, I'll start playing around with the shims. I think I'll be able to understand what the 205 is doing better after trying it with the 725 and 525. Where I'm still figuring out what the 800 does, I know those foils really well so I should be able to discern what the tail is contributing verses the front foil.

Separately, my peak speeds with the 800 are 4-6 kph slower than with my 725. This doesn't really matter once on a wave, but I find I can chase down and overtake a wave easier with the 725. The 800 isn't slow, but its definitely not as fast as the 725.

I had my first wing today with 205 on the Ma 1000 / 795 - with Blue shim (as i do with the HA 195). Ive got my initial observations sorted but will have a few sessions before i report back - hopefully with some swell next time... i wont be getting rid of the 195 thats for sure.

Zasby said..
I have the new 935 performance mast and the MA1225 wing with a 232 tail. My mast is all the way forward in my SMIK board but it is still too back-foot heavy. I tried an Axis setup and it was the complete opposite - mast needed to be way back or there was too much front foot pressure. I am now tempted to move to Axis because it appears to suit the SMIK better (i.e. I can move the Axis back but can't move the Armstrong any further forward).

1. Would one of the new MA tails give me more front-foot pressure
2. Has anyone come from Axis and in what ways are they different/better/worse than Armstrong (acknowledging that all brands have their pro's and cons and some may be better suited for certain boards).
3. Perhaps I should get a new SMIK board with a foil track that is further forward? (this appears to be the trend now)

Thanks

I would for sure grab a new surf or flow tail to help with the mast placement. I've heard of other guys in your situation being able to slide the mast back a few CMs after changing tails. I'd be able to slide my mast back 2-3 cms if I rode without shims. I'm still sliding back around 1-1.5 cms with a red and blue shim paired with the 205.

In the meantime, a quick test would be to negatively shim your 232 to see if it helps. Flip a blue (or red) shim around and trim the excess. That should give you an idea if the new tails will be worthwhile, just understand that the newer tails are significantly less draggy compared to that.

Windoc said..

wingnit said..
Strange phenomenon today with the MA1225/235. Good solid winds today on Oahu allowed me to push the 1225 harder/faster. What I have not experienced with other foils is that this one would start pitching down whenever I got close to 18+kts..?
Does this call for a shim?

This is exactly what I initially felt with the HA195 on the 1225. I reversed a red shim and the behaviour stopped, but the drag felt noticeable. I switched out for the chopped 232 (212), no shim and it was a massive improvement in balance and front foot pressure with no pitch issues at high speed.

Strange that the 235 is creating that pitch issue for you as well. If you shim it flatter, I think the pitch issue will worsen as you'll have less down force to counter the dive at higher speed. Hopefully others can chime in.

It could be that 18+ kts is the speed limit of that larger foil. At some point the forward pitching moment will take over on wings with camber.

For me the 800 has hit 19.5kts and 1000 has hit 18.2 kits and no dip for me with the 205 tail.

True, could be the upper limit for the 1225 at Wingnit's weight if they are lighter. But the pitchiness went away for me with the 212 tail, even at top speed. It was very pronounced with a red shimmed 195. Reversed red helped a ton, but 212, no shim or blue shim at 90kgs IMHO matches better in higher wind with the 1225.

MidAtlanticFoil said..
It could be that 18+ kts is the speed limit of that larger foil. At some point the forward pitching moment will take over on wings with camber.

For me the 800 has hit 19.5kts and 1000 has hit 18.2 kits and no dip for me with the 205 tail.

That's exactly it. As MAF said, at a certain point the drag from the front wing creates a moment larger than the counter moment from the tail. to counter that you need more downward force from your tail, so bigger tail or negative shimming. The HAs were notorious for this at their top end range and KDMaui did this early on with the HA's by negative shimming the tails so that you wouldn't get that nose dip at high speed.

eppo said..
Oh pitch stability with the 205 is the main thing one notices. Stands out like nothing else. Mate on new 235, 12225 but older mast - immediate change as well. No denying the 232/212 and indeed the 205/235 MA noticeably improve pitch stability. Super stable with even foot pressure.

+1
the 235 flow evens out the foot pressure on the MA front foils

eppo said..
Oh pitch stability with the 205 is the main thing one notices. Stands out like nothing else. Mate on new 235, 12225 but older mast - immediate change as well. No denying the 232/212 and indeed the 205/235 MA noticeably improve pitch stability. Super stable with even foot pressure.

That would mean: in comparison, the HS and HA foils have a more constant lift across the entire range at low and high speeds, in contrast to the MA foils.
This disadvantage of the MAs is obviously compensated with the new stabilzers, because they also produce more lift at high speed and thus provide more pitch stability for the MAs.
agreed?

Thanks to Eppo and MAF and Oahu and the others on here for your trials to help me make decisions,

I wanted to wait to have several sessions on these before I said anything on my thoughts. I now have used the 1225 and 935 mast on the wing ding for several sessions and sup foil surfing for several sessions. Me 190lbs/86kgs. Also I am on the old 60 fuse and will just give the number so you can convert what that would be if you have the A+ fuse. All were riding the 6'4 FG board.

Sup foil surfing
New tails were not out and so used the 232v1 tail at -1 in waist high surf. Definitely an improvement on the 1550v2 which was one of mt main wave foil. More lively on the wave for me. Confirmed what I have been reading that the combo is a big improvement.
Had another session where the waves ended up being smaller. Went with the 1850 to have fun. But with the -1 setup, the board would just shoot up and drop. Switch the rear shim to +1 and this set up worked real good in small wonky surf.
The new tails.
Had some good surf last week in the waist to chest range and cleaner. Had 3 good days. Used the 1225/935/ 235 tail shimmed to -1 for 2 days. Board was real fun and felt more lively than the 232. Had 2 days with this set up. It was very stable on the wave. Had some really long rides carving all over the place.
Third day I switched to the 205 tail. Meant to do it on the second day but so excited to get out in the waves that I forgot to switch it. Reading Eppo's post about going -.05 to +.05 on the tail I said the heck with it and ran the tail at 0 degrees. Flat. Wow. Fast. Had to compress and bend my knees more. Felt like the pros in the videos getting way out in front and carving back way across in front of the white water and then way back in front of the wave over and over. I was really digging this setup.

Wing dinging
Have not been real lucky with the winds. Generally 15 mph and dropping.
First time out before the tails went on the 1225/935/232 with the tail at -1. First impression was fast. First get up in a gust and it was off to the races. Noticed the improved upwind ability, I am guessing from the mast that I have been reading about. Whole thing was stable and fun.
Then I bought the new tails and the wind cooperated. Had a day of 15-22 mph winds with 1225/935/235 at -1. Board would take and get going quickly. Was stable riding.
Just had 1 session with the 1225/935/205 tail at 0 degrees too and same thing. IN 15 mph winds. Stable. I have not felt any of the pitchiness that has just been discussed when trying speed runs with either tail.

One thing I have noticed with riding this set up. Riding heal side on my strong side. Rides just like the Hs and Ha foils I ride. Riding toe side with this set up has been killing me. With my 1550v2, 1850, 1325, I have not had problems with toe side riding or popping up, or jybing. With the 1225 it has been a struggle getting up and sometimes riding toeside and even jybing. It has been a step back words for me in that respect and I have no idea why. The last session with the 205, things started to come together and I was riding toeside and jybing and almost had my first tack. I am guessing I need to adjust my timing or style or something for this and I may be adjusting now. Still fun loving this setup.

eppo said..
I can comment on tails for at Least DW winging now. 795/1000/60fuse/blue shim - happened to be on a 4'4 36L sinker but thats by the by.

Have you run the 205 with more shim yet for DW? If the 205/235 are natively another -.5 deg compared to the 195 you'd need to shim them a little more (red shim) to get the same angle you're getting from the 195 (blue shim). Maybe stating the obvious there, but I'd be curious to hear your experience flattening out the 205 a bit more. Or even using a 235 shimmed flatter for better pump/connecting ability DW. I've had the experience of "feeling more drag" but surprisingly hitting higher top end speeds due to the better stability offered from a draggier tail vs high efficiency tail. This is where I find the GPS can be helpful to really dial in performance and desired feel together.

Oahuwaterwalker said..

eppo said..
I can comment on tails for at Least DW winging now. 795/1000/60fuse/blue shim - happened to be on a 4'4 36L sinker but thats by the by.

first run 205 tail

second run 195 tail.
195 for me is Noticeably faster, giving more glide and pump ability to link swell lines. Felt it accelerate better off small link up wavechops on the hard turns to find your way into the next runner. Still stands out to me as armies best tail

205 - far more pitch stability - could drive the turns harder. Can see why people like it - balances out the foil pressure across board so nicely. Probably more forgiving overall stall speed wise. Just makes the armie setup much more comfortable to ride. But Felt much slower and draggy compared to 195. Suppose felt like a refined chopped 232 - hey no surprises i suppose

wouldnt use it again to DW
sbut its a surf foil, so all this makes sense.

I had a similar experience with the 205 and the HA725 this morning. The 205 really improved pitch stability and noticeably dropped the stall speed. Though my peak speeds remain very similar, the 725/205 combo feels faster overall than the 800/205 and it was easier to overtake swells. I agree with Eppo, the turning is also improved and the overall experience of riding the 725 is easier and more predictable.

I should have a go at the 525/205 combo later this week (it's getting WINDY in Kailua) and I'm pretty excited about it. Based on the experience of increased stability with the 725, I anticipate the 525 will be much more manageable pitch-wise.

Today was the first time riding the 725 in a while as I've mainly been riding the 800. I was hoping the experience would give me an "ah ha" moment that would help me to decide about keeping either the 725 or the 800, it didn't. The only "ah ha" was that there is now way to avoid making a compromise.

For the windsurfers and surfers out there, the 725 is like a board with less rocker, the 800 is a board with more rocker. You could easily own both and make a decision based on the conditions. Steep walled up waves? The 800 is your foil for tight turns where you can accelerate during the turn. Softer rollers with broken up steep sections? You might want the 725 for the extra glide and overall straight line speed. My challenge? Kailua has days where either scenario could happen, but more commonly its rollers.

Today, I did miss the way that the 800 can accelerate in a turn. You can still do this on the 725, but its not quite the same.

Next phase of the experiment:
-525/205 combo
-800/205 with blue shim likely followed by the 725/205 with blue shim

Awesome! Thanks for sharing.

Windoc said..

eppo said..
I can comment on tails for at Least DW winging now. 795/1000/60fuse/blue shim - happened to be on a 4'4 36L sinker but thats by the by.

Have you run the 205 with more shim yet for DW? If the 205/235 are natively another -.5 deg compared to the 195 you'd need to shim them a little more (red shim) to get the same angle you're getting from the 195 (blue shim). Maybe stating the obvious there, but I'd be curious to hear your experience flattening out the 205 a bit more. Or even using a 235 shimmed flatter for better pump/connecting ability DW. I've had the experience of "feeling more drag" but surprisingly hitting higher top end speeds due to the better stability offered from a draggier tail vs high efficiency tail. This is where I find the GPS can be helpful to really dial in performance and desired feel together.

Maybe. Blue shim in as always. Could try a red for sure. Not sure another 0.5 will address the vastly different shapes / idea. The connect / glide and speed into swell lines on the back to back DW was noticeably better. So was the pump to connect up swell lines and even from near static stall. Even the straight line speed was there but yeh pitch control is far harder (not a massive issue on a small sinker mind you).


I dont need a GPS for any of these observations. I dont chop and change gear - ride the same one wing quiver setup over and over again in the same conditions

it is what it is. For really hard banking surf wave sessions - 205 will rip. For DW swell line catching - 195 is much better.

WHS said..
If getting new performance mast, MA foil, and new 235 tail, is it necessary to to also get a new fuse? I have V1. Seems like an unneeded extra $500us.

Tail fits better on the new fuse.