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Originally posted by oceangirl

-------------- hold your head underwater and count slowly to 60. It's a long time.

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Yes that's the point, if you don't panic, plenty of time to undo the quick release!!!! Even if you're totally disorientated, don't know which direction is which, if you're not panicking, it's easy to find the mast and boom, and pull yourself towards the mast once released.

All the advice to train yourself to do it, is the best safety thing you can do.

It's an attitude thing, taking responsibility for your own safety, rather than relying on it to happen automatically.
(Saying which, I must practice it myself!!!!!)

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Originally posted by nick125

hey, i windsurf a bit but mostly skiff/dinghy sail. in sailing there bringing in laws that if your trapezing you have to have a quick release hook, personally i wont waste my money and just hope i dont get protested. few of my mates have got one of these www.gillmarine.com/us/ dont know why it wouldnt work as a windsurf harness if your into safety. its pretty funny to be cruising along and just reach over and press the quick release and they fall in the water...

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Now there's an idea. Thanks for your input, Nick.
Does it come with a spreader bar instead of the hookplate ?

My wife had a recent experience in Maui. Dropped a gybe in a wave, found herself under the sail hooked in. She tried to stay cool, but With waves washing over the top there was too much pressure on the on the bar to release it. The panic set in when she couldnt work out what she was hooked to. She finally worked out, using adjustable lines, that the hook was caught in the small loop at the end of the line, ie, the finger hold. Left her a quite shaken, she taped up the loops to avoid re occurance.

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Originally posted by Mark _australia

I know it is no help NOW but that is what the "don't panic" thing is about.

Reasoning: don't try to diagnose the problem... just ditch the harness. Rip the buckle up and push away really hard so the strap comes out. Then push harness down like you're trying to drop your strides after a big night on the curry.

5sec max.

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If you are panicking and can't think enough to reach down to your harness and pull the line of the hook, then you have a 99.9% likely hood that you are not going to be capable of trying to figure out how to undo a harness and remove it.

The best way to overcome it is to practice and escape method train yourself not to panic.

Anybody who travels offshore in a helicopter has to do the "Dunk" test so if it does turn pear shaped they know who to react, This is a variation on a theme

Mark, I don't think you've ever been trapped by your harness, have you ? Hardie, Jordo, Hardpole, Juice, Bubs, Stribo, and Mkseven all have. Did I miss out anyone ? I'm not alone here. The harness needs to be improved, it needs 21st century safety features.

To be perfectly frank, I've been bucked off really bad and pinned down so hard; and only the one time, but I'm finding it difficult to pluck up the courage to get back on the saddle (or in the harness you could say ).
I'm fearful of the gear so I'm thinking of selling my windsurfing equipment. Seriously, I've lost all my confidence since the incident.

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Originally posted by oceangirl

To be perfectly frank, I've been bucked off really bad and pinned down so hard; and only the one time, but I'm finding it difficult to pluck up the courage to get back on the saddle (or in the harness you could say ).
I'm fearful of the gear so I'm thinking of selling my windsurfing equipment. Seriously, I've lost all my confidence since the incident.

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That's perfectly understandable, think anybody would feel that way.

But I still think the best way is to take the advice of other people who've also been thru it, and practice getting out of the harness underwater.
It's the only way you're going to regain confidence!!

If you're current harness is too hard to get out off, buy one with the spreader bar quick release.

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Originally posted by oceangirl

To be perfectly frank, I've been bucked off really bad and pinned down so hard; and only the one time, but I'm finding it difficult to pluck up the courage to get back on the saddle (or in the harness you could say ).
I'm fearful of the gear so I'm thinking of selling my windsurfing equipment. Seriously, I've lost all my confidence since the incident.

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Everybody gets pinned at some time or another, even after they are through the basic learning.

If you want to carry on with the sport then have some more lessons with an accredited instructor as they may be able to help you get over the anxiety it in a safe environment.

If you don't think you can get over this anxiety, because having a prang and staying hooked in is a reality of the sport then it might be best packing it in as you won't enjoy the sport and that at the end of the day is why we do it.

My recommendation though is to do a bit of practice, you will be surprised with how quickly you can get used to getting yourself out from under a sail in half an hour.

Yep shop around. I've only ever used 2 harnesses in over 10 years (they're like jeans ). Both have had quick release on the bar and 3 plastic buckles to press in the event of emergency. I'm not really a fan of the DaKine style harnesses with the webbing release.

I might add that as you become more experienced catapults almost disappear unless you do something stupid. Most of the time you can feel them coming and unhook before the inevitable.

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Originally posted by Mark _australia

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Originally posted by oceangirl

Mark, I don't think you've ever been trapped by your harness, have you ? Hardie, Jordo, Hardpole, Juice, Bubs, Stribo, and Mkseven all have. Did I miss out anyone ? I'm not alone here. The harness needs to be improved, it needs 21st century safety features.

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Yes I have, many years ago, a couple of times. Further I have been held under my sail in a big set, had my leg stuck tru the boom and the sail whislt getting worked, and had to swim back with an without my gear a number of times. Once I very nearly drowned. So yes I know what it is like to be schitscared.

I think you are being downright silly now, people have spent 2 pages and 30 replies telling you all the advice in the world and Elmo can teach you how to get over it / practice... but still you are saying you might sell your gear.

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Mark, first you tell me I have no business to be in windsurfing, and now you call me silly for trying to improve safety in the sport.
I think you are treating me in a very chauvinistic way. Your smug attitude is of course no reflection on the other members of the forum who have been very helpful.

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Originally posted by mkseven
There was a discussion about harness line pulleys catching in harness hooks a few months ago. Here is a blog post about it:

www.peconicpuffin.com/the_peconic_puffin/2007/05/bad_accident_wa.html

The key is to think about how you might get hooked in to the rig, and practice removing your harness, and practice running your hands to the hook to see if you can calmly dislodge whatever you're hooked on to.

I always review this with my wife before we sail together, and when teaching anyone new to the harness.



The best designed device will not help you unless you prepare for the inevitable. The best preparation is learn exactly how the harness unclips in an emergency and how to remain calm. I was trapped in harness lines not long after I started planing in the harness and being in shallowish water became lodged between sail and bottom. Struggle as I might I couldn't get out, calmed down and easily slipped out of the lines.

Having hard enough catapults since to wind myself, break harness lines and booms, it has never worried me since I learnt from that first time remain calm and you feel like you have all the time in the world. I have always ensured my harnesses have quick release though.

All these people getting hook stuck on booms, are you using hook upside down?

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oceangirl - you accuse Mark of being chauvinistic, but he hasn't said anything to segregate you into any 'other' group? That's not fair - especially if you were implying that he was being male chauvinist as he hasn't even mentioned your 'girlness' yet!

In this case, at least, I think he's actually being quite reasonable.

Regardless of the many millions of dollars that have been spent improving the safety features in cars, people doing the wrong thing still get hurt AND people still refuse to wear seatbelts - that's not the car manufacturers fault.

If I was to take the latest BMW, put on my seatbelt, and then, having driven it into the side of an overbridge at 200km/h - find myself 'hurt' in some way, I would not blame BMW for making an inferior car.

The point is that harnesses (and cars) are designed to be used in a specific way, catapulting is not the way that they are intended to be used. BMW's are not supposed to be crashed, but..

Much like learner drivers, we all have 'accidents', that are avoidable with experience, when pushing our boundaries. If you wear a seatbelt, or know how to ditch your harness and get out from under your sail BEFORE you need to rely on either of those safety mechanisms, you should feel safer.

If everyone who'd ever had a car accident gave up driving, there'd be a lot fewer cars around (probably 99% less)

I can understand that you've had a traumatic experience, but don't give up on windsurfing unless you're really sure.

The adrenaline of surviving those 'experiences' is what many of us find addicting - if you live on the edge, chances are pretty good that you'll fall off it every now and then.. That's how you figure out where the edge is! BUT.. you do have to have the courage to climb back up in the knowledge that you're going to fall off again and again.

There is plenty to learn, and you will find yourself scared silly more than once in the future if you choose to push through this challenge and continue to windsurf.

You will also hopefully have many days where you barely manage to drag yourself home after a great session, totally wrung out, bruised and broken, and yet totally exhillerated, buzzing and itching to get out again for the next great day. Those are the days that make it all worthwhile.

"If you can't (release the bar), are the harness designers being negligent with regards to your sailing safety?"

Bit like trying to sue the council because the reef that trashed all your gear was too sharp.

I think Oceangirl the day we start sueing windsurfing equipment designers for safety design negligence is the day was all pack up and go home.
The prices will sky rocket if that happens.

Yes this is a rediculous topic. I say we ban harnesses!!!
ha ha that will sort out the good sailors from the bad. I have seen pro's doing forwards hooked in. In all the time that people have been sailing skiffs only one fatality has occured and now all the laws have been changed but we still don't know if the fatility would have still occured because the sailor was knocked out and drowned anyway not because they were stuck under the rig. In the 25 years I have been invloved in windsurfing I am not aware of any fatalities.
Anyway is it not the fault of the harness lines that twist not the hook??

Lotsa good advice....