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Leech
Leech
WA
1933 posts
WA, 1933 posts
13 Aug 2007 12:18pm
quote:
Originally posted by oceangirl

All I want to do is improve safety in windsurfing. Why is there resentment to this policy by certain members ? It seems so counterproductive.




If that's really your only motivation then why aren't you contacting the manufacturers instead of bitching and moaning on the internet?
oceangirl
oceangirl
WA
35 posts
WA, 35 posts
13 Aug 2007 12:24pm
quote:
Originally posted by The Grinch


"If you can't (release the bar), are the harness designers being negligent with regards to your sailing safety?"

Bit like trying to sue the council because the reef that trashed all your gear was too sharp.




Grinch, I'm afraid your logic is misplaced. The reef is a natural feature, the council didn't build it and claims no ownership and therefore bares no liability.

Yes, the harness designers have a duty of care and should be forced to design in a failsafe release system for all risk situations.
Why wouldn't they want to ? If it's about the cost, then how much is your life worth ?

Elmo gave two examples of how it would be impossible to unhook from a trap. In those cases, the harness would need to be fully ejected to escape. Gybesports has mentioned of one fatality due to harness entrapment.

If only one windsurfing harness company reads this thread;
and decides it's a good idea for safety reasons or even from a selling point of view, and goes ahead and designs a harness with a full ejection system, then my work is done.
But I hope they all can understand the wisdom.
The Grinch
The Grinch
WA
733 posts
WA, 733 posts
13 Aug 2007 12:30pm

Don't scare her off Leechy
God knows we need more girls on this forum to sort us out!

Oceangirl,
I imagine your twisted harness line episide frightened the crap out of you (it's happened to me).

How bout this for a solution. Get some hard (Thermosetting) plastic tube from Bunnings. Heat it up in hot water and bend it in a U shape. Thread your harness line through it (or you might have to cut it along its length) and 'hey presto' A DOG WITH AN UNTWISTABLE STOMACH .

This will help you through the catapult phase of your windsurfing life.
The alternative solution is to windsurf drunk. This removes all safety fears and reservations.



oceangirl
oceangirl
WA
35 posts
WA, 35 posts
13 Aug 2007 12:31pm
quote:
Originally posted by Leech

quote:
Originally posted by oceangirl

All I want to do is improve safety in windsurfing. Why is there resentment to this policy by certain members ? It seems so counterproductive.




If that's really your only motivation then why aren't you contacting the manufacturers instead of bitching and moaning on the internet?



The only bitch and moaner on the internet is you Leech. Like I said earlier, a harness company will read this thread and hopefully do the right thing for all you guys, even for you Leech.
Leech
Leech
WA
1933 posts
WA, 1933 posts
13 Aug 2007 12:46pm
For the record, I reckon this is one of the best threads we've had for a while.

But while it's an interesting topic, I think that if you want something done about it you shouldn't rely on the manufacturers just happening to read these forums. Contact them directly as well.
oceangirl
oceangirl
WA
35 posts
WA, 35 posts
13 Aug 2007 12:49pm
quote:
Originally posted by The Grinch


Don't scare her off Leechy
God knows we need more girls on this forum to sort us out!

Oceangirl,
I imagine your twisted harness line episide frightened the crap out of you (it's happened to me).

How bout this for a solution. Get some hard (Thermosetting) plastic tube from Bunnings. Heat it up in hot water and bend it in a U shape. Thread your harness line through it (or you might have to cut it along its length) and 'hey presto' A DOG WITH AN UNTWISTABLE STOMACH .

This will help you through the catapult phase of your windsurfing life.
The alternative solution is to windsurf drunk. This removes all safety fears and reservations.







Thanks for the Bunnings tip, Grinchy. But like I said to Decrepit, aren't we still sidestepping the problem.
Beginners won't know all these clever tricks that you experienced guys have learnt over the many years and from dozens of painful crashes. Learners go in blind, they don't know anything.

Richiefish
Richiefish
QLD
5612 posts
QLD, 5612 posts
13 Aug 2007 2:54pm
When i was learning I had crappy old sails, my head would just pop straight through into the air.
555
555
892 posts
555 555
892 posts
13 Aug 2007 12:57pm
quote:
Originally posted by oceangirl

555, I'm sure Mark is a big boy and he can defend himself without your help.
Chauvinism is not exclusively gender based, (and I didn't intend for my comment to be sexist in this case). It was more about superiority and smugness.
Mark's references to my suitability to windsurf and his swipe at my mental capacity were out of line, but he has already apologized for the former insult.

Now that I've read Gybesports post about the enforcement of safety features to be designed into new harnesses of certain companies, I feel vindicated in my endeavours.
All I want to do is improve safety in windsurfing. Why is there resentment to this policy by certain members ? It seems so counterproductive.



Mark may have been entitled to feel superior in this case - after all, he apparently knows how to get out of a stuck harness.. but as you say - he's probably able to look after himself!

I don't think anyone resents your endeavours to improve safety - more that you seem to imply that the situation you found yourself in was somehow the fault of the harness manufacturer.

Life is fundamentally 'not safe' we WILL all die due to some decision, defect, or wear, be that in a car, windsurfing equipment, or something that breaks or ceases to work inside our own bodies (maybe God should take a look at that.. I wonder if there's a forum?!)

Your choice is how you mitigate, or avoid those risks.

You are quite entitled to (and should) persue the safest equipment or techniques for any situation, but at the end of the day, you are still choosing to put yourself in harms way by windsurfing.


We've recently had a very public case here where a couple of kiters messed up and got their kites tangled around the mast of a yacht moored in a popular wind/kite surfing bay. The yacht has been on a mooring there since well before kiting became popular. The involved parties kicked up a public stink that the yachts were 'dangerous' and 'a hazard'. There were even threats made against the owners of the yachts, and comments to the effect of mooring lines being cut in the dead of night.

The kiters intention was to decrease the risk of an 'incident' for themselves.

Legally, wind and kitesurfers in this bay are breaking maritime law (speed in proximity to other vessels, and shore), and the harbour master would have been quite entitled to ban all windsurfing and kiting in the bay. The mooring holder is also a resident of the street providing access to the bay - and every windy day, their street is totally clogged with vehicles, had things turned nasty - a petition of locals would easily turn the waterfront into a 'no parking' area.

I hope you can see how this relates to what you're saying - if the kiters had A) been more experienced at kiting, or B) recognised their limitations, and the 'hazards' of the venue, and practised in less challenging conditions until they were capable of dealing with the situation, then there would be no issue. Instead, a fuss was made, and a large number of other water users had their use of the facility seriously jeopardised.
oceangirl
oceangirl
WA
35 posts
WA, 35 posts
13 Aug 2007 1:04pm
quote:
Originally posted by Leech

For the record, I reckon this is one of the best threads we've had for a while.

But while it's an interesting topic, I think that if you want something done about it you shouldn't rely on the manufacturers just happening to read these forums. Contact them directly as well.



They will probably just fob me off.

Anyway I believe a lot of windsurfing companies do read the forums. They mightn't show their faces much, maybe never make postings, but they are very interested to know what's going on.
Companies would respect the comments from long term sailors like yourselves, they like to be aware of what's happening at the coalface.
Sure, they have their prettyboy teamriders, but you need a general overall picture of the windsurfing scene to make valued judgements.
I'm just guessing here but it makes sense to me.
MJP68
MJP68
QLD
147 posts
QLD, 147 posts
13 Aug 2007 3:08pm
oceangirl, hang in there.

like most sports, windsurfing has it's fair share of macho, and us boys are notorious for laughing in the face of danger while simultaneously p!ssing our wetsuits.

you've obviously been affected by your near miss, and I understand how you feel. when I first started sailing I couldn't understand why hundreds of people were'nt killed or maimed by being catapulted into the nose of their board. took me a while to realise there are a stack of good reasons why this isn't the case.

every day, we make concessions to safety, and accept things that COULD be safer if we wanted them to. imagine how many FEWER people would die on our roads every year if we all drove our cars wearing 4 point belts and helmets?? but we don't do we. why? "inconvenient".

let your feelings percolate a week or two and get it into perspective. you might come to see that the risk of drowning under your sail is quite small, and it's a risk you're willing to accept again.

If not, don't give it up. find a local light-steel welder and describe your idea. the sailing, parasailing and parachuting industries have a huge variety of quick-release designs that you may be able to adapt to a harness quickly and simply. then sell it to some big company for hundreds of thousands next year.

the thing is sailing, like life, has plenty of near-misses built in. it's the price you pay for the good bits.

matt
frant
frant
VIC
1230 posts
VIC, 1230 posts
13 Aug 2007 3:13pm
Oceangirl. In my opinion the present hook to harness line is as quick to release and as failsafe as required. Any additional "quick release" device is likely to add to your perceived hazard by, like most safety specific devices, failing (try seizing up through sand salt and neglect) just when you need it. On the other hand if you develop and practise a protocol to unhook then you will be in a best position to release in an emergency. Mine is
1/ Never let go of the boom (never ever) when crashing/catapulting.
2/ When underwater pull your body to the boom.
3/ With one hand sweep from your chest down to ensure that you unhook
4/ Using your other hand still holding the boom push yourself clear of the sail (to the boomhead or clew).
By not letting go of the boom you will not twist your harness lines, will always be oriented to the boom, harness lines, hook and most importantly AIR which is just past the boomhead. If you do let go find the boom, grab hold and go from step 2. If you have a couple of twists these will be loosened when you pull your body to the boom. Then go out and practice a few times and go through the procedure everytime you crash. Its a bit like learning to SCUBA dive where you learn a procedure and then practice how to recover your mouthpiece. Personally I am much happier knowing that I can unhook rather than thinking that I'll be OK because I've got a quick release that I have never used. Personally I think that a helmet and impact vest/pfd use or otherwise is of much greater benefit to personal safety. Admitedly from a speedsailing viewpoint.
cheers
Frant
grumplestiltskin
grumplestiltskin
WA
2331 posts
WA, 2331 posts
13 Aug 2007 1:47pm
quote:
Originally posted by MikeyS

http://www.neilpryde.com/equipment/spreader-bars/quick-release.html
Just buy it!


Am I looking at the wrong bit cos basically ALL those bars look like the hook is the same
MikeyS
MikeyS
VIC
1509 posts
VIC, 1509 posts
13 Aug 2007 3:53pm
quote:
Originally posted by grumplestiltskin

quote:
Originally posted by MikeyS

http://www.neilpryde.com/equipment/spreader-bars/quick-release.html
Just buy it!


Am I looking at the wrong bit cos basically ALL those bars look like the hook is the same


Yep, you're looking at the wrong bit. The hooks are all the same but the spreader pictured is different to the others. The quick release part is the loop on the left hand side (as you are looking at the bar). There should be a quick release buckle on one side of the harness that engages one side of the spreader.
I'm going back to sleep now.
MJP68
MJP68
QLD
147 posts
QLD, 147 posts
13 Aug 2007 3:55pm
yeah it's a bit ambiguous isn't it?

the QR bar has a different hoop on one side, and by "quick release" I think they mean "quick, I need a beer" as opposed to "quick, I need to get outa this thing NOW".

IMO none of the QR bars on the market are a safety feature, more of a convenience feature. after all, if you only release one side of the bar, you could still feasably be hooked up under your sail, with the added problem of now you don't know exactly where the hook is...

a good QR system is hard to come by. ask any kiter...

MP
hardie
hardie
WA
4133 posts
WA, 4133 posts
13 Aug 2007 1:56pm
quote:
Originally posted by grumplestiltskin

quote:
Originally posted by MikeyS

http://www.neilpryde.com/equipment/spreader-bars/quick-release.html
Just buy it!


Am I looking at the wrong bit cos basically ALL those bars look like the hook is the same



If you have a close look there appears to be a different mechanism on one side, maybe this could be the thing?
555
555
892 posts
555 555
892 posts
13 Aug 2007 2:11pm
It would be easy enough to make a bar and hook system that was held together by a 'pin' type mechanism that you could yank out leaving the bar on the harness, and the hook on the harness line.

I can just imagine how much they'd sell replacement 'hooks' for. Once you detached the hook from the bar, it would of course untangle itself and immediately sink..

And then you have the risk of accidentally pulling the pin and ending up not being able to hook in to get home.. Who should we blame for that?

My harness is easy to un-strap either end of the bar with one hand, rip the velcro 'cumberbund' off from around my middle, and it falls straight off. And then it floats - bar and all..

But, we've covered this already..
Chris 249
Chris 249
NSW
3585 posts
NSW, 3585 posts
13 Aug 2007 4:18pm
quote:
Originally posted by oceangirl

quote:
Originally posted by The Grinch


"If you can't (release the bar), are the harness designers being negligent with regards to your sailing safety?"

Bit like trying to sue the council because the reef that trashed all your gear was too sharp.




Grinch, I'm afraid your logic is misplaced. The reef is a natural feature, the council didn't build it and claims no ownership and therefore bares no liability.

Yes, the harness designers have a duty of care and should be forced to design in a failsafe release system for all risk situations.



Actually, councils and other bodies have been found to be liable in the past for injuries caused by underwater hazards in waters under their control. There are many cases including swimmers and several involving waterskiers, and one windsurfer got a settlement off a council after he was injured in shallow water. That guy also went for the board manufacturer.

One of the problems is designing a new quick release that's safer, in all the foreseeable circs, than not having a different QR. If your hook flies off when you hit a catch, how are you going to get back in a big breeze (without a hook) of you hit the release accidentally or too early? If the hook is retained by a line, will that line catch something?

As others have said, where do you stop? Lightning, catapults, jumps etc are all greater dangers....should we just ban jumping? Should we sail around with lightning conductors?
frant
frant
VIC
1230 posts
VIC, 1230 posts
13 Aug 2007 4:23pm
555, My thoughts exactly, but most of us are so tightfisted we would probably be stuck under water thinking "If I pull the quick release It will cost me a hundred bucks, I'll just struggle on for another few seconds trying to work out how all those guys said you unhook" as waves of blackness pass over and we see the white light.... but I did see in a Yachting World magazine a little key ring that had a tiny water activated CO2 bag and LED light so that if you drop your keys over it pops up with a little light marker. Now maybe I will develop that one for the detatchable spreader bar.
grumplestiltskin
grumplestiltskin
WA
2331 posts
WA, 2331 posts
13 Aug 2007 2:36pm
Why dont we all HTFU and not use harnesses at all.

If your arms get tired hold the boom with your teeth
Gybesports
Gybesports
NSW
193 posts
NSW, 193 posts
13 Aug 2007 5:28pm
this is the Gaastra bar system but the Skiff system is a hook that releases not the bar.

www.seabreeze.com.au/gallery/gallery.asp?imageid=5546
choco
choco
SA
4186 posts
SA, 4186 posts
13 Aug 2007 5:14pm
For the last 10 years i have used the spreader bar with the roller instead of the hook.Earlier this year i purchased a new seat harness and sailed with the new spreader bar after 1 session replaced the bar with my old roller.
Advantages(roller)no friction on the lines this makes it easier to feel the power in the sail.
Should you get catapulted? all the times it happened to me i have never had the lines caught in the bar
Disadvantges:when i first used it the lines sometimes dropped off the bar when sailing,i learn't to keep pressure on the lines and have never had a problem since.

www.seabreeze.com.au/gallery/gallery.asp?imageid=5547
jord070
jord070
WA
1109 posts
WA, 1109 posts
13 Aug 2007 3:56pm
as this thread goes on it seems that your getting more confident again ocean girl, its good
black dog
black dog
SA
42 posts
SA, 42 posts
13 Aug 2007 6:39pm
quote:


quote:Originally posted by grumplestiltskin

quote:Originally posted by MikeyS

http://www.neilpryde.com/equipment/spreader-bars/quick-release.html
Just buy it!


Am I looking at the wrong bit cos basically ALL those bars look like the hook is the same



If you have a close look there appears to be a different mechanism on one side, maybe this could be the thing?


I have the auto system featured.
As posted earlier you simply flick the ratchet either side of the bar and it detaches straight off the harness.

No need to slip out of the harness as the bar and hook (that is holding ocean girl to the sail via the harness line) simply pulls away from the harness.

3 pages of this wishing and wooing about manufactures finally taking note and the fact is IT'S ALREADY ON THE MARKET AND AVAILABLE

quote:

quote:Originally posted by oceangirl
If you somehow got your harness hook caught in something, like trapped really tight in something, can you easily remove your complete harness quickly to escape ?
I mean in seconds.


The bar detaches in a mili second... no need to dump the harness (which will provide you with additional floatation should you require it)

No need to reinvent the wheel... its been a ROUND a long time
Pryde are not the only manufacturer with an auto bar release system.

Get an auto release system and get back out on the water oceangirl, don't let your fears ruin your budding passion

Woof Woof

The Grinch
The Grinch
WA
733 posts
WA, 733 posts
13 Aug 2007 5:09pm

An incredibly popular thread and I can't think why!!!
bubs
bubs
SA
924 posts
SA, 924 posts
13 Aug 2007 7:21pm
oceangirl even though i think that adding new things to the harness is unnecssary, i do think the companies would listen to a young girl (um ... i asume your young) who is invloved in the sport. If you really like to see a change here it is completely up to you to take action. Relay them to this article for the support and everything. There has just about been all the advice given here that can be and it's is now turning to much repetition. However you should not let one scare turn you off the sport completely. Just get out there and if you want as said before 'JUST PRACTICE!!!' the situation so that your not so worried.

Bubs
Mark _australia
Mark _australia
WA
23684 posts
WA, 23684 posts
13 Aug 2007 6:27pm
quote:
Originally posted by oceangirl

quote:
Originally posted by Mark _australia

Originally posted by oceangirl

Mark.




Mark, first you tell me I have no business to be in windsurfing, and now you call me silly for trying to improve safety in the sport.
I think you are treating me in a very chauvinistic way. Your smug attitude is of course no reflection on the other members of the forum who have been very helpful.



No I most certainly did not.
I said that if you (I meant hypothetical person so sorry for the use of the word 'you') could not hold your breath for 30 sec that person should not really be windsurfing. Much the same as if they can't swim.
You were offended but then later said you could go 60sec so where da problem at?

I also so that it would take 5-10 sec to get out of a harness once you are mentally prepared for the task IE don't panic.
Now you are mentally prepared ..... everyone schits it the first time.

I also said I am familiar with very scary situations when sailing.

OK maybe my first post was abrupt ....... but chauvanistic (!!!!??) hell no it wasn't. And smug? how is it that 90% of the posters have agreed with me in saying that existing systems are FINE as long as you know what to do and don't panic?
It is not like I said "c'mon luv, girls are not supposed to windsurf" but it seems that may be what you read into it???
decrepit
decrepit
WA
12885 posts
WA, 12885 posts
13 Aug 2007 6:50pm
quote:
Originally posted by oceangirl

All I want to do is improve safety in windsurfing. Why is there resentment to this policy by certain members ? It seems so counterproductive.



May be it's the way you've presented the case. If you'd started off describing the offending buckle and how hard it is to get undone. I for one would have agreed with you.
I wouldn't use a harness that's hard to get out of.
If everybody practiced getting out of harnesses, manufacturers would soon find that harnesses that you can't easily release from wont sell. That's the best incentive for them to get it right.
I use a DaKine surfseat, it has a plastic buckle that undoes easily.

I think most of us thought you just needed encouragement to get your confidence back.
Most posts are aimed at what you can do to feel and be more safe in your harness.
Have you written to DaKine telling them of your experience, that would be the first step in tying to improve things, if so did you get a response?
oceangirl
oceangirl
WA
35 posts
WA, 35 posts
13 Aug 2007 6:51pm
quote:
Originally posted by jord070

as this thread goes on it seems that your getting more confident again ocean girl, its good



Unfortunately I reckon I've lost my nerve with windsurfing now. My near death experience has left its mark on me, I'm totally gun-shy with being hooked up and falling underwater.
This may sound over dramatic to a lot of you guys and you are probably having a fine old chuckle to yourselves, but to me personally at the time it was shear terror.
Call me chicken if you like, but I must have a chronic case of trapped-harness phobia.
Mark _australia
Mark _australia
WA
23684 posts
WA, 23684 posts
13 Aug 2007 6:58pm
And a lot of people have told you how to resolve that phobia.... because windsurfing is so awesome we want to see you continue (see above many many posts!)

do the Elmo and you will be fine.

oceangirl
oceangirl
WA
35 posts
WA, 35 posts
13 Aug 2007 7:03pm
I had this friend who had a fear of flying. Oneday I gave her a ride to the airport, because strangely enough, she had bought a plane ticket for a trip.
When we entered the terminal, she totally froze and refused to check in her bags. We had a drink at the bar and then after awhile, I drove her home. We talked as she unpacked her luggage. It was funny and pathetic at the same time.
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